China and the United States Are Preparing for War

[Kshatriya87]

China took what it could easily. The further expansion is NOT EASY. Every expansion further will entail a bloody war.
I do not agree that "China is known for expansionism". China is new to the game.

The Challenge of China's Expansionism in East Asia and U.S. Policy Responses

Territorial changes of the People's Republic of China - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

China's gradual expansion in East China Sea poses challenge for Japan - The Washington Post

ASEAN unity and the threat of Chinese expansion - Opinion - Al Jazeera English

 

[sorcerer]

Well @CCP is correct that this deal is big and helps Russia. I would agree there. However I am not so convinced about the "advance" part.

We need to see the details. Such news makes it easy for Russian government to sell the deal to Russian public.

I was not contradicting @CCP. I was merely pointing to the fact that, details of the contract are not available, so we dont really understand the reality of pre pay. Anyone who buys anything from Russia is helping them finacially. Also Russia lives on oil money so naturally oil makes the major chunk of their export and part of big deals.

 

[sgarg]

I was not contradicting @CCP. I was merely pointing to the fact that, details of the contract are not available, so we dont really understand the reality of pre pay. Anyone who buys anything from Russia is helping them finacially. Also Russia lives on oil money so naturally oil makes the major chunk of their export and part of big deals.

Russia needs more than oil revenue. Russia needs markets for its manufacture, while also the ability to pay for imports with ruble.

Russia's strategy of relying on oil is history. It has to change.

Ruble will stabilize when demand for dollar is reduced. Reduced demand for dollar will also a dampening effect on speculation.

China can also help by investing in Russia in infrastructure, for example building roads and rail roads etc.

I want to see some sort of swap arrangement between Russia and China which is independent of dollar-ruble rate. Let us see if it happens.

 

[sgarg]

The teeth of BRICS is the currency. Either a BRICS currency is needed or a fixed exchange rate between BRICS currencies is needed. Until this is done, BRICS is a toothless tiger.

The starting point is swap of fixed amounts (say 100 B USD equivalent) per year at fixed exhange rate. The fix amount will take out the risk of currency manipulation by one single player.

The swap will result in much greater trade between BRICS.

 

[no smoking]

2. However export oriented economy is not necessarily a strength. It can be a big weakness in the times of serious economic contraction. This labour force cannot be easily used in the domestic economy.

Creating export oriented economy is not about strength. Instead it is all about supplying your customers with your product on a better term than your competitors, which means cutting you out will cost your customer. That is why blocking China is a lot harder option comparing to Russia.

3. The people depending on Chinese trade will not matter in the decisions of the Anglo-American empire.

Well, it does matter: there are hundreds of lobby groups working in US parliament everyday. Do you think who is paying them? Certainly not Chinese.

4. Tracking US bond sales is as easy as tracking Russian oil tanker in the information based economy.

NO, most of US bondes hold by Chinese are anonymous. China can sell them through third country market.

6. You still do not get one point - they want to ASSIMILATE RUSSIA. Read the propaganda carefully. They no longer talk about destroying Russia. China is not so fortunate. Your culture and systems are incompatible with West.

You still don't get the fact right--they don't want Russia to have the same right as them. Russian already expressed their desire to join NATO, it was westerner rejected it. With largest population, largest military forces and largest land size, among Europe countries, who do you think will dominate Europe?

7. China is becoming an EXISTENTIAL threat to USA which even USSR never was.

More importantly, this new threat is inside the system which leads by USA. Let's put it in this way: Chinese is just trying to replace USA's CEO position in a company A while USSR was trying to create their own company to destroy company A.

8. They broke up USSR to remove USSR threat. Their modus-operandi is same - replace bigger States with smaller States to remove threat. They may want to do the same with China.

No, they don't want to do the same: removing China. You can destroy your competitor but you can't destroy your own supplier and customer. They just want to deal with China on a good term by bring in new suppliers and customers.

9. What they did to Russia should be replaced with what they did to USSR. Russia is actually more successful than USSR on many levels. It enjoys much better lifestyle. There are no crippling shortages of consumer goods.

Will you agree to lower down India's defence level if Chinese promise a better living standard to majority of Indian population (let's assume that China can make this happen)?
I guess you won't. Why? No one wants to live under the mercy of others no matter how good this life is.

 

[no smoking]

What we have seen so far is Western attempts to assimilate Russia. Russia taking over Europe through NATO is an interesting thought which I have not seen expressed through any of discussions I have had so far. Can you back up your claim through some links.

What is the original target of NATO from day one? Russia!
Why these eastern Europe countries want to join NATO? Protect them from Russia.
Allowing Russia to join NATO, then what this NATO is working for?

US does not have to deal with the new bloc. The people who control EU also control USA. They are speaking in one voice because puppeteer is the same.

Really? Obviously you have no idea at all how these two kick each other under the table. Give you an example: Iraq!

Germans are in control in Europe and USA is in control in the Americas. They both are components of the same power today.

Really? What power? I hope you are not answering "the western power".

USA forming a bloc with China is perhaps a Chinese dream, which is as invalid as an Indian dream to form a bloc with USA.

Do you really read what I write? This alliance is only an possible product of your "Europe-Russia alliance" since the latter is making everyone else insignificant as you said!

You said "China providing financial support to Russia" - an oil pipeline deal is NOT "financial support". Can you provide some examples of Chinese financial support to Russia??

Oh, this deal is a finance support especially when the ultimate price is higher than Chinese previous offer and Chinese is supposed to make a huge deposit when Russians desperately need money.

 

[sgarg]

@no smoking, I appreciate your long and point by point response.

It always helps to know the view of others. You have said exactly what I have read about Chinese strategy 15 years before. The only problem is there are some serious flaws in the Chinese strategy.

The obvious flaw is China cannot become CEO of this company called Anglo-American empire. The empire works on the principle of supremacy of a few people, who are determined primarily by lineage.

We have understood a lot about Western system by working on software projects. Our knowledge of their economic and political systems is probably better than yours.

Your understanding of Western strategy for Russia is flawed. They have always moved to takeover economic systems of the vanquished countries. They tried the same with Russia.

They do not care for the common person on the street. They care only for the ruling class and how to control this ruling class.

The USSR tried to create the company B but USSR is no longer there. The company B does not exist.

Company A exists but China cannot become its CEO. Company B built by USSR is destroyed. The Chinese company C is a virtual company with its assets blocked by company A.

You may treat your holding of US bonds as big advantage but in reality it buys peace only. It is NOT a significant advantage if a war starts. They have plenty of tools to block trade in government securities.

 

[CCP]

@no smoking, I appreciate your long and point by point response.

It always helps to know the view of others. You have said exactly what I have read about Chinese strategy 15 years before. The only problem is there are some serious flaws in the Chinese strategy.

The obvious flaw is China cannot become CEO of this company called Anglo-American empire. The empire works on the principle of supremacy of a few people, who are determined primarily by lineage.

We have understood a lot about Western system by working on software projects. Our knowledge of their economic and political systems is probably better than yours.

Your understanding of Western strategy for Russia is flawed. They have always moved to takeover economic systems of the vanquished countries. They tried the same with Russia.

They do not care for the common person on the street. They care only for the ruling class and how to control this ruling class.

The USSR tried to create the company B but USSR is no longer there. The company B does not exist.

Company A exists but China cannot become its CEO. Company B built by USSR is destroyed. The Chinese company C is a virtual company with its assets blocked by company A.

You may treat your holding of US bonds as big advantage but in reality it buys peace only. It is NOT a significant advantage if a war starts. They have plenty of tools to block trade in government securities.

Don't need to make things complicated.

China holding the world no.1 industrial base. period .

 

[no smoking]

@no smoking, I appreciate your long and point by point response.

The obvious flaw is China cannot become CEO of this company called Anglo-American empire. The empire works on the principle of supremacy of a few people, who are determined primarily by lineage.

No, this company is now called Asia-Pacific and Chinese seriously believe they have the chance.

We have understood a lot about Western system by working on software projects. Our knowledge of their economic and political systems is probably better than yours.

No, you have no understanding at all since India is not a player in the game.

Your understanding of Western strategy for Russia is flawed. They have always moved to takeover economic systems of the vanquished countries. They tried the same with Russia.

Oh, great, now you are suggesting that they are trying to assimilate Russia by pissing off Russian political/military leaders in Eastern Europe and Ukraine?

They do not care for the common person on the street. They care only for the ruling class and how to control this ruling class.

Well, it looks like the ruling Russian class they controlled are in Russian prison now. Good work.

The USSR tried to create the company B but USSR is no longer there. The company B does not exist.

Company A exists but China cannot become its CEO. Company B built by USSR is destroyed. The Chinese company C is a virtual company with its assets blocked by company A.

It is become frustrating if you make your argument without reading my writing. There is no Company C and I never mentioned anything about company C or Chinese company C. Chinese has always been in COMPANY A from 1978.

You may treat your holding of US bonds as big advantage but in reality it buys peace only. It is NOT a significant advantage if a war starts. They have plenty of tools to block trade in government securities.

Again, who said anything about US bonds can be treated as an advantage?
I always says that these US bonds are a bomb combine China and US together. This bomb is not to prevent any military attack upon Chinese land or seas. The only purpose is to make Americans think twice before planning any ECONOMIC WAR.
As you said, in reality it buys peace. That is all Chinese need now. Chinese believes that time is on their side.

 

[tarunraju]

A US conflict with China will never happen. Direct conflicts between two countries as heavily armed as this won't happen. Chinese sphere of influence extends to Washington. US businesses will never allow their government to go to war against their primary growth driver (cheap manufacturing in China). Even if we preclude the possibility of war, US can't weaken China, or throw it off the rails, either. US espionage and sabotage capabilities are very limited in China. The general population is shielded from the rest of the influential Internet (US-based social networks), and every attempt at creating social discord within China by the west failed miserably (umbrella protests don't count). If the US ever wanted China to remain an underpowered cheap factory, it would have done something about it in the early 1990s. Now it's way too late.

 

[sgarg]

1. No, this company is now called Asia-Pacific and Chinese seriously believe they have the chance.
2. No, you have no understanding at all since India is not a player in the game.
3. It is become frustrating if you make your argument without reading my writing. There is no Company C and I never mentioned anything about company C or Chinese company C. Chinese has always been in COMPANY A from 1978.
4. The only purpose is to make Americans think twice before planning any ECONOMIC WAR.

My response:

a. Your argument 3 and argument 4 are in conflict. If you are in company A, you do not need to worry about an economic war from USA. You do not need US bonds.

USA keeps on complaining about access to Chinese market. This should not happen if you are in company A.

b. Your concept of Asia-Pacific is very interesting. Can you provide some link or some study material on this topic.

c. Most of the big American companies are now operating in India. Even those that are making losses (like GM) have not left. A huge part of software development for American market is now done in India, including a large number of high-technology projects. This would not happen if India was very low in US's priority.

 

[no smoking]

My response:

a. Your argument 3 and argument 4 are in conflict. If you are in company A, you do not need to worry about an economic war from USA. You do not need US bonds.

No, we do worry for good reason: Japan, Korea, South Eastern Asia and South American, they were the victims of American's economic war.

USA keeps on complaining about access to Chinese market. This should not happen if you are in company A.

Japan was also in company A but US still kept complaining about access to Japanese market in last 80s/90s.

b. Your concept of Asia-Pacific is very interesting. Can you provide some link or some study material on this topic.

Well, if you don't even know about the movement of "world economic centre", I don't know what you are arguing.

c. Most of the big American companies are now operating in India. Even those that are making losses (like GM) have not left. A huge part of software development for American market is now done in India, including a large number of high-technology projects. This would not happen if India was very low in US's priority.

A sub-contractor, not a player.

 

[sgarg]

@no smoking, you are not answering my questions at all. You are simply deflecting.

Believe me, I have talked to many Chinese in my life face to face. You are not the first one.

I wish you good luck. There is something Chinese believe in, certainly. I hope luck stays on your side. If not, may the best man win.

 

[santosh10]

There will be a strong posturing between US and China to test the real balance and the reaction including the reaction from its allies.
This is getting interesting







source:[]Obama – Xi Jinping Talks Underscore US War Threats against China | Global Research[/url]


Source:
Beware the "Thucydides Trap" Trap

a level of Cold war is always expected, and would continue for half of the century, i guess. but it won't escalate further as world has to survive.....

Chinese economy is expected to overtake US's economy on PPP term this year, and no way they are going to stop :ranger:
//data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.PP.CD

on the other side, US, as a representative of West as whole, is structured to dominate the world, its purpose to stand as it is. and there is a limit, the China will allow interference in its country.......

the so called "Industrialized Nations" (OECD economies) have first lost their industries to emerging economies to an extent, and only the war they may fight from now onward. and to what extent they want to de-establize this world, we have yet to see. the ongoing Climate Change problem :ranger:

 

[sgarg]

@no smoking, may be you would like this as a gift:

"Washington (CNN) -- China and "probably one or two other" countries have the capacity to shut down the nation's power grid and other critical infrastructure through a cyber attack, the head of the National Security Agency told a Congressional panel Thursday.
Admiral Michael Rogers, who also serves the dual role as head of U.S. Cyber Command, said the United States has detected malware from China and elsewhere on U.S. computers systems that affect the daily lives of every American.
"It enables you to shut down very segmented, very tailored parts of our infrastructure that forestall the ability to provide that service to us as citizens," Rogers said in testimony before the House Intelligence Committee."
Govt: China could take down U.S. power grid - CNN.com

 

[sgarg]

a level of Cold war is always expected, and would continue for half of the century, i guess. but it won't escalate further as world has to survive.....

The need to print money constantly to balance its books shows that both Americans and Europeans are under pressure. They have ageing populations and productivity is not keeping pace with competition. Their highly materialistic societies are unable to adjust to a lower standard of living. So they are left with no option but to fight and remove the competition.

There is no doubt that Chinese have been quite smart. They have given USA the largest ever bribe in history. For three decades they have absorbed large part of excess dollars which has kept the buying power of dollar intact. In return USA looked the other way, as China built itself into a major economic and military machine.

But as every ponzi scheme finally collapses, this scheme too has no future. The premise of the scheme was that China will never be in a position to challenge US power. That premise has bitten the dust.

 

[no smoking]

@no smoking, you are not answering my questions at all. You are simply deflecting.

Well, I already give your my answer. You just stuck yourself to your own idea too much and refuse to look at it in a different perspective.
You just believe there are only black and white colors in this world while Chinese think there is other colors.

Believe me, I have talked to many Chinese in my life face to face. You are not the first one.

I really doubt that you understand what they said. Actually that is the general mistake that lots of Indians in this forum made: you guys always tried to interpret Chinese move/words within Indian background and knowledge. So most of time, you are surprised that you got Chinese wrong.

I wish you good luck. There is something Chinese believe in, certainly. I hope luck stays on your side. If not, may the best man win.

That is another problem of Indian: you believe things are happening by luck while Chinese believes that paying cost is making things happen.
We don't need to win, our plan is to be one of the last 2 standing.

 

[sgarg]

@no smoking, you are wrong on all counts.

Since I cannot take this useless discussion any further, all I can do is wish you good luck.

Chinese believe in LUCK is legendary. Ever heard of fortune cookies. When a person like you lies through his teeth, the other guy can do nothing but wonder.

 

[amoy]

@no smoking, you are wrong on all counts.

Since I cannot take this useless discussion any further, all I can do is wish you good luck.

It's u who fails to reason and substantiate your claims, then resorts to verbal attacks "lying" and "useless".

Actually I like @no smoking bhai's metaphor "Company A", but I'd interpret it as the "world order" that Uncle Sam has framed. Up to now China mostly works within the "Company A" structure. But of course with growing Chinese might China asks for more shares of the Company and more say in the board of directors, as results in the CEO + the biggest shareholders, namely status-quoists, responding by Pivot to Asia or rebalancing. In the meantime China also initiates some start-ups that might challenge the existing order, such as financial institutions the BRICS Bank and Asia Infrastructure Bank, and SCO in security when finding the reform of the current framework isn't materialize (e.g. WB, IMF). Also China's put up a Silk Road Belt initiative etc.

What I disagree with No Smoking and u includes on Chinese holding of US T- Bonds. Unlike what u put a "bribery" or "buying peace" or "an implanted bomb" blah blah, highly inflated. As a matter of fact 1. most of the debt is owned by Americans themselves 2. American TB is a safe investment

Drowning in Cash, Chinese Foreign Investment: Who, What and Why -- Part 1 of 3
Who Owns the US National Debt? How Much Is Owed?

the breakout (as of March 2014):
Foreign - $5.95 trillion
Federal Reserve - $2.394 trillion
State and Local Government, including their pension funds - $786 billion
Mutual Funds - $1.136 trillion
Private Pension Funds - $516 billion
Banks - $370 billion
Insurance Companies - $271 billion
U.S. Savings Bonds - $178 billion
Other(individuals, government-sponsored enterprises, brokers and dealers, bank personal trusts and estates, corporate and non-corporate businesses, and other investors) - $1.093 billion. (Sources: Federal Reserve, Factors Affecting Reserve Balance, June 27, 2014 Treasury Bulletin Ownership of Federal Securities, Table OFS-2, as of June 2014)
This debt is not only Treasury bills, notes, and bonds but also TIPS, Savings Bonds, and State and Local Government Series securities.

As you can see, if you add up debt held by Social Security, and all the retirement and pension funds, nearly half of the U.S. Treasury debt is held in trust for people's retirements. If the U.S. default on its debt, foreign investors would be angry, but the greatest harm would befall the average U.S. citizen.

Of course Chinese are diversifying gradually >> China overseas direct investment to exceed FDI by 2017, says study - FDIWorldExpo Go China That's leading to less buy of US TB.

The study predicts that the mainland's outbound direct investment (ODI) will jump from US$115 billion last year to US$172 billion in 2017, exceeding the amount of foreign funds coming into the country, and driven by mainland firms' ambition to tap overseas markets and their growing awareness of enhancing research capabilities.

 

[amoy]

U.S. and China look to manage differences, cooperate against threats

America and China's top diplomats stressed the need to manage differences and cooperate against global threats including Islamic State and Ebola, as they sought to warm the mood between their countries ahead of a summit next month.

"There are many areas that the United States and China are cooperating on, even as we have some differences that we try to manage effectively," U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry told reporters in Boston on Saturday before a second day of talks with Chinese State Councilor Yang Jiechi.

China and America are like Yin-Yang -
Opposing forces that are interconnected and interdependent in the natural world, giving rise to each other.