Boeing in Favor of Made-in-India F18S for IAF

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by Lions Of Punjab, Oct 17, 2015.

  1. Lions Of Punjab

    Lions Of Punjab Regular Member

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    [​IMG]
    A Boeing F/A-18E Super Hornet of the U.S. Air Force

    Boeing chairman James McNerney said on Friday that his company will be happy to make its fighter jet F/A-18 Super Hornet in India if the Indian Air Force (IAF) were to buy it.
    McNerney, who met Prime Minister Narendra Modi on Thursday, believes this to be the best government he has seen in India in 35 years. Enthused, he wants Boeing, the defence and aerospace giant that earned $91 billion in revenues last year, to play a part in taking Indian manufacturing to global standards.
    The IAF has a depleted fleet and is looking for a twin-engine fighter aircraft as well as a single-engine one. The F/A-18 is a twin-engine, supersonic, multi-role and all-weather fighter.
    [​IMG]
    President and CEO, Boeing, James McNerney. The defence and aerospace giant has said that it will be happy to make its fighter jet F-18s in India if the Indian Air Force were to buy it. (Hindustan Times)
    “...it is obvious to me there is active interest in more fighters... however it shapes up, Boeing will have a fighter that can meet the requirement. What is different is our commitment to indigenise the manufacture of this fighter,” McNerney, on a quick visit to the country, said in an exclusive interview to HT.
    Boeing’s proposal, he said, would involve both a state-of-the-art fighter as well as transfer of a significant amount of the production system to India, which will have a broad-based effect, not just in defence but also in other industries.
    Asked if the Boeing chairman was inclined to make the F/A-18 in India, McNerney said: “I think whichever system we offer, Make in India will be an important part of it. If F/A-18 were our offer, a significant Make in India part of the proposal will be there.”
    McNerney, basking in the orders just placed by India for two of its helicopter models, Chinook, which is used for heavy lifting, and Apache, an attack aircraft, said Boeing would increasingly use partnerships around the world to make and design in other countries. “In India I see the single biggest opportunity to do that.”
    He likes the change in the way the Indian government and bureaucracy respond. “I think what makes Prime Minister Modi special is that he is both a visionary and has his feet firmly on the ground... He understands how hard it is to do the little things as well as how important it is to do the big things.”
    McNerney cited the dialogue on the offset obligation as a fine example of the change in the bureaucracy’s approach.
    “They have listened to people like us, and made some improvements. There is a dialogue. There never used to be dialogue, there used to be take-it-or-leave-it.”

    http://www.hindustantimes.com/busin...ets-for-iaf/story-meDpNjskKl2560VZWZHMWJ.html
     
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  3. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    I don't care about what Boeing thinks. I care about what the US Congress thinks.

    Excerpt from Wiki article entitled "Arms Export Control Act."
     
  4. apple

    apple Tihar Jail Banned

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    That's a F/A- 18F, not an E model and it's serving with the Royal Australian AIr Force.
     
  5. Rowdy

    Rowdy Co ja kurwa czytam! Senior Member

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    We may consider it when
    a) 100% Make in India
    b) no jump on 49% FDI fir so old fighter
    c) Favorable price.
     
  6. Srinivas_K

    Srinivas_K Senior Member Senior Member

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    Since the offer is from them and manufacturing is done in India, we can find a way to improve our industry as well as make our selves immune to sanctions.
     
  7. Hari Sud

    Hari Sud Senior Member Senior Member

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    Can I start a bit of an academic discussion!

    Five years back when F-18 was also being evaluated together with Rafale, Typhhon, MiGs etc., and I do not remember whether It was Hornet or Super Hornet, it was rejected by the IAF as 80s technology and a bit out of date. All Airforces who are using it including Canada and Australia were dumping it in favour newly developed technology of F-35. Five years later it would appear that F-35 is late by five years and is not as great as the blue glossy brochures tend to say. Canada, US Navy and Airforce, and other countries are still flying it and would fly it for next decade or so.

    That means outright rejection by IAF and the Defence Minister Anthony was premature. The Super hornet with latest technology and better engine is here to stay with many Airforces of the world. If India was to acquire this plane and it joins squadron service in five years, it will have a life span of another fifteen years because, it has newer gadgets onboard and newest arms to kill the enemy.

    This will be a remarkable and cheaper achievement where our enemy would have to stay away from the Super Hornet.

    I would definite and without proof say that Anthony as Defence Minister did not wish to associate with the Americans, hence ways were found to reject Super Hornet outright. That time has changed now.

    What comes with Suoer Hornet is, manufacturing without preconditions, Some technology transfer and capability in India to learn and build high performance aircraft of your own.

    I would not pay too much attention to Pakistani outdated F-16 or their own class three technology of JF-17

    Chinese have a bunch of huge propaganda of their stealth fighter. I have tough time believing it because copied and stolen technology does not make a good fighter. A Super Hornet can out perform these.

    So let us see what politicians have to say, then what has IAF have to say. I believe the old Marshall's of the airforce, who rejected it out right in 2009 are long gone. IAF is yearning for four squadrons of medium fighter of modern kind. This may be the answer.
     
  8. Zebra

    Zebra Senior Member Senior Member

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    Not sure how far F/A-18 Super Hornet E/F offer is true as of today.

    But if I am not wrong, both of your points are useless here.

    * The country who is happy to assist in making of all new aircraft carrier for Indian Navy (without any kind of restrictions) , the same country can also help to make aircrafts for that carrier (without any kind of restrictions) .

    * And there are hardly any kind of sale of sensitive technologies involved in it.

    The reason is Boeing itself will make it in India for India, with the help of 'Make in India' norms.
    The same goes for Kamov helicopters also. When they make Ka-226T in India under 'Make in India' norms.

    Only thing is they have to provide life time company's support to Indian customers, which are Indian forces in this case.

    Just like other Indian companies do support.
    For example HAL, Tata Motors, Maruti Suzuki or Ashok Leyland etc. sell their products and services to Indian forces.
    They don't sell the tech that how they manufacture it or they invent it. Indian forces even don't want it anyway.
    Being an Indian forces, there concern is how they can get maximum use out of that given product and if company support in it , then it is enough as an operator and customer.
     
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  9. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    Yes, you are wrong. Read below:

    A country being "happy to assist" is not the same thing as the legislature of that country lifting restrictions that are already in place.

    F/A-18 has no sensitive technology? It is unclear, but even if we assume you are correct, the previous point still stands.

    Kamov ends with "-ov." So, it is most likely Russian. Russia has no parliamentary restrictions on arms sales to India. So, this is irrelevant.
     
  10. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    I would welcome a GE factory in India making F-404, with every component being made in India. Again, my concerns are, will the US Congress allow an American arms manufacturer and seller, such as GE, do it?
     
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  11. Sakal Gharelu Ustad

    Sakal Gharelu Ustad Detests Jholawalas Moderator

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    1) How does it compare wrt Rafale in terms of fighting capability?

    2) Cost comparison wrt rafale?

    3) How long would it take to acquire and deliver? Given how Rafale negotiations have gone, India would fail to acquire a single aircraft before 5 years.

    India can forget about FGFA cooperation with Russia if it goes ahead with this deal.
     
  12. Zebra

    Zebra Senior Member Senior Member

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    For that red color part......

    Antony was in favour of F/A-18 E/F at some stage in MRCA and he requested for price consideration from US side.

    He raised the reason that F/A-18 being an old platform. And he was right at that time.

    But it was then Defense Secretary Gates, who ignored it. With the argument that US tech is better.

    In my view, it was grave mistake of Defense Secretary then. It was not about tech or even about price, but it was all about India and US.

    And he missed it outright, rest is part of recent history.

    Later on IAF and UPA rejected F/A-18 for political reasons.

    I wonder one can get these matter on DFI now, as many posts are already gone from MRCA threads.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2015
  13. Zebra

    Zebra Senior Member Senior Member

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    So Kamov people are not happy with 'Make in India'.....!
     
  14. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    You missed my point. My point is what I have written in post #2.
     
  15. Srinivas_K

    Srinivas_K Senior Member Senior Member

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    I think we need to target 50 to 60 % indigenization and then aim higher with time.

    GE already has its eco system spread across continents, they will show interest in manufacturing components in India because of the cheaper resources, skilled man power that exists in our country but I think 100 % is not possible here.

    Currently we import lot of key components and technologies, we need to change this approach and climb the ladder. Once manufacturing starts here in India I am sure there are many Entrepreneurs in India who are ready to grab the opportunity to supply the components needed for making fighter planes, in doing so we are building an eco system. The next step should be R & D and convert the experience gained in manufacturing into world class Indian products.

    Plus a single fighter jet composes of 2 million parts, so manufacturing here not only develops eco systems but also creates many jobs here in India. India can emerge as a manufacturing base for the world defense industry which is close to 1 Trillion (approx).

    It all depends on how we absorb the technology and make a push to develop and R & D in our country. Chinese did that in the field of electronics. We need to learn from them in this regard.

    The representatives of Boeing and Lockheed martin all agree to the fact that India has technical man power, very good environment for establishing manufacturing base but lacking in decision making.
     
  16. Illusive

    Illusive Senior Member Senior Member

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    Grab this opportunity. Many people forget that one of the reasons for rejecting US equipments was US reluctance to TOT like @pmaitra pointed. But if they are giving us this, then i say this is the best opportunity for our private industry to take a quantum leap from a non existent ecosystem to a 1 where both India and US can work towards making aircrafts cheaper in the future through collaboration.

    US congress will be reluctant, but its better for them to prep up India by sharing tech to use the same advantage that China's manufacturing has. India will help decrease the cost with the efficiency of our private players.
     
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  17. Illusive

    Illusive Senior Member Senior Member

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    Briefcase 'that changed the world'

    In the summer of 1940, the war with Germany was at a critical stage.

    France had recently surrendered and the Luftwaffe was engaged in a concerted bombing campaign against British cities.

    The United Kingdom was being cut off from the Continent, and without allies to help her, she would soon be near the limit of her productive capacity - particularly in the all important field of electronics.

    On the morning of 29 August, a small team of the country's top scientists and engineers, under the direction of Sir Henry Tizard and in conditions of absolute secrecy, was about to board a converted ocean liner.

    With them they carried possibly the most precious cargo of the war - a black japanned metal deed box containing all of Britain's most valuable technological secrets.

    They were on their way to America - to all but give them away.

    This high-powered team included representatives from the Army, Navy and Air Force, along with specialists in the new technologies of war.

    Earlier that morning, radar expert, Dr Edward "Taffy" Bowen - a vital member of this Tizard Mission and responsible for looking after the metal deed box that was to become known as "Tizard's briefcase" - almost lost it.

    When he had arrived at London's Euston station, the Welshman had handed it to a porter while gathering up his remaining luggage, then watched helplessly as the man headed off to find the 0830 boat train to Liverpool without waiting for his customer.

    As he struggled to keep the porter in sight above the wartime throngs, Eddie Bowen would not have drawn much attention from the busy Londoners. Only his face would have betrayed his concern.

    Short distance

    Just five days short of the war's first anniversary, Britain faced one of its most desperate hours.

    The Battle of Britain was raging, and bombs were falling nightly on Liverpool. Nazi armies ringed the country from the Norwegian coast down to France; an invasion was expected within weeks.

    As Bowen knew, the seemingly ordinary solicitor's deed box - for which he was personally responsible - held the power to change the course of the war.

    Inside lay nothing less than all Britain's military secrets. There were blueprints and circuit diagrams for rockets, explosives, superchargers, gyroscopic gunsights, submarine detection devices, self-sealing fuel tanks, and even the germs of ideas that would lead to the jet engine and the atomic bomb.

    But the greatest treasure of all was the prototype of a piece of hardware called a cavity magnetron, which had been invented a few months earlier by two scientists in Birmingham.

    John Randall and Harry Boot had invented the cavity magnetron almost by accident.

    It was a valve that could spit out pulses of microwave radio energy on a wavelength of 10cm. This was unheard of. Nothing like it had been invented before.

    The wavelength for the radar system we were using at the start of the war was one-and-a-half metres. The equipment needed was bulky and the signals indistinct.

    The cavity magnetron was to be the key that would allow us to develop airborne radar.

    Kitchen technology

    "It was a massive, massive breakthrough," says Andy Manning from the Radar Museum in Horning.

    "It is deemed by many, even now, to be the most important invention that came out of the Second World War".

    Professor of military history at the University of Victoria in British Columbia, David Zimmerman, agrees: "The magnetron remains the essential radio tube for shortwave radio signals of all types.

    "It not only changed the course of the war by allowing us to develop airborne radar systems, it remains the key piece of technology that lies at the heart of your microwave oven today. The cavity magnetron's invention changed the world."

    Because Britain had no money to develop the magnetron on a massive scale, Churchill had agreed that Sir Henry Tizard should offer the magnetron to the Americans in exchange for their financial and industrial help. No strings attached.

    It was an extraordinary gesture. By September, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology had set up a secret laboratory; by November, the cavity magnetron was in mass production; and by early 1941, portable airborne radar had been developed and fitted to both American and British planes.

    The course of the Second World War was about to be changed. It was, says writer Robert Buderi, possibly the most important development of the 20th Century.

    In fact, it was so important a development that the official historian of the Office of Scientific Research and Development, James Phinney Baxter III, wrote: "When the members of the Tizard Mission brought the cavity magnetron to America in 1940, they carried the most valuable cargo ever brought to our shores."
     
  18. DingDong

    DingDong Senior Member Senior Member

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    Confused, is this
    Make in India
    or
    Assemble in India

    ???
     
  19. Illusive

    Illusive Senior Member Senior Member

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    To quote him "What is different is our commitment to indigenise the manufacture of this fighter"

    You should read the OP :p
     
  20. Sameet2

    Sameet2 Regular Member

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    what about I say that we dont need any stupid aircraft but rather stuck to rafale , tejas , mki and after we need some fifth gen ones too whats point in wasting money in american toys we alot of money to them but the advantage is even good but we do have alternative . need to develop our own stuff much .
    some foriegn arms are okay but not everything !
     
  21. roma

    roma NRI in Europe Senior Member

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    no offence, please , if i reduce your academic discussion to silghlty simpler english ?

    what you've said is " grab it " and i agree ...

    and btw your info on St Antony's dislike for usa is noted and appreciated


    well , exactly my feelings too ....but when youre dealing with the usa , or indeed actually with anyone , for that matter , as they say , the devil is in the details

    in particular, i would ask , how many planes do we need to commit to buy before we get the goodies of TOT and license to mfg and be self -sufficient, ... in anticipation of some USA fantastic sanctions, which they are so well-known for implementing every time some one even accidentally steps on their super-sensitive toes ?

    secondly in reply to your and @pmaitra 's comments on US congress as quoted just below ;-
    my reply is to say that surely Boeing knows how to handle them ? :)
    you know , lobbying and all that - so it's off our hands for once !

    the tech to be transferred is pretty solid stuff and so the deal from Boeing is not to be taken lightly but as you have cautioned we still need to be on our toes

    But consider the following ....... india has been saying for quite some time now that we want to diversify our sources of high tech weaponry and in a sense reduce our hitherto dependence on the russians . ...the deal with the french isnt going the way it should be , namely that it is again meandering and going on for too long ....who knows by the time the deal is finally done , if ever, the rafael offered to us may be ever so slightly 2nd grade stuff in the end. ...so thus Boeing thing may come in pretty handy

    the idea is to diversify and the india defense ministry has done well in reducing the rafael order from 126 to just 26 ....now if we go for boeing plus later the pakfa comes online , then that would be pretty diverse enough ....so that objective would be well- met

    !invitation to comment and if you feel what ive written is interesting, go ahead and "clicke" :-
    @angeldude13@[email protected] [email protected]@[email protected] @Bornubus @brational@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected] [email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected] [email protected]&run
    @indiandefencefan@[email protected]@jackprince
    @Kunal Biswas@[email protected]@mhk99 @maomao @Neil@[email protected]@[email protected]
    @Rowdy@[email protected]@[email protected]
    @Sakal Gharelu Ustad@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected] enlightened
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    Last edited: Oct 19, 2015

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