Arjun vs T90 MBT

[Kunal Biswas]

It can be done, Given there are Armour Modules of Light Kanchan Armour..

Or there can be a cooperation between various companies which can help to design such armour modules for Arjun but Armour over it will be Indian Hybrid Armour..

What is the width of the storage box(the distance between the two walls)?
can it be modified as a cavity for composite armor?

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This Upgrade of LEO2A4 impressed me and same can be applied for Arjun as Arjun share many outer details with Leo2a4 :

 

[Kunal Biswas]

NOTE : Avoid personal attacks, lets focus on topic..

 

[Damian]

It can be done, Given there are Armour Modules of Light Kanchan Armour..

Or there can be a cooperation between various companies which can help to design such armour modules for Arjun but Armour over it will be Indian Hybrid Armour..



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This Upgrade of LEO2A4 impressed me and same can be applied for Arjun as Arjun share many outer details with Leo2a4 :

Yes Kunal, however note, that composite armor is still placed only at the front and sides, wile the rear is protected by slat armor.

So there is by no means possibility to say that "Kanchan" or any other type of composite armor, can provide all around protection. It is just immposible to do so.

And of course Arjun can use such up armor package, as well as many other types of up armor kits, yet none were presented, so the claim that there is all around protection against anti-tank weapons, is false.

The rear hull and turret armor must provide protection only against automatic cannons (and this sometimes is immposible) and small arms fire, not anything else, at least not without slat armor.

 

[Decklander]

Can anyone here compare MK2 with Leopard 2? Both are going to be identical copies.

 

[Damian]

Can anyone here compare MK2 with Leopard 2? Both are going to be identical copies.

With what variant of Leopard 2? There are many different variants, not only German made one, but also the ones for non German users.

Not to mention that Arjun is similiar only from the outside. And both do not have anything in common in reality. Methos who have a lot of German sources, said that producers of Leopard 2, the Krauss Maffei-Wegmann (and it's predecessors the companies Krauss Maffei and Wegmann) and Rhinemetall did not provided any support in the development of Arjun MBT.

So if rather reasonable is claim that Leopard 2 was inspiration for DRDO and CVRDE, it is rather not truth that Germans helped, at least not in any significant way.

 

[ersakthivel]

With what variant of Leopard 2? There are many different variants, not only German made one, but also the ones for non German users.

Not to mention that Arjun is similiar only from the outside. And both do not have anything in common in reality. Methos who have a lot of German sources, said that producers of Leopard 2, the Krauss Maffei-Wegmann (and it's predecessors the companies Krauss Maffei and Wegmann) and Rhinemetall did not provided any support in the development of Arjun MBT.

Arjun (tank) - Military
Despite DRDO's attempts at indigenization, the Arjun relied heavily on foreign components and technology. DRDO received major design assistance from Krauss Maffei, the developer of the German Leopard 2 tank, and several other German firms. As a result, Arjun's design is very similar to that of Leopard 2A4 tank.[11]

Initially close to 50% of the tank's components were imported, which included the engine, transmission, gun barrel, tracks, and fire control system[12] however, several of these have since been replaced by indigenous systems or are being supplied by Indian companies.

So if rather reasonable is claim that Leopard 2 was inspiration for DRDO and CVRDE, it is rather not truth that Germans helped, at least not in any significant way.

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/arjun-mbt/
The development of Arjun MBT began in March 1974. The tank heavily depends on foreign technology and equipment. Krauss Maffei, developer of the German Leopard 2 tank, provided the design assistance. Hence, the Arjun closely resembles Leopard 2A4 tank.

http://www.historum.com/war-military-history/38908-main-battle-tanks-2012-a-5.html
Krauss Maffei,developer of the German Leopard 2 tank, provided the design assistance in the Initial stages of Arjun mbt's designing.Hence, the Arjun closely resembles Leopard 2A4 tank. A lot of inexperienced nations got help from the Germans or took the German's designs.

So Methos's sources must be more authentic than this,I suppose.If you are so sure can you get any official confirmation from the german firm to settle it once for all?

 

[Damian]

So Methos's sources must be more authentic than this,I suppose.If you are so sure can you get any official confirmation from the german firm to settle it once for all?

Ask Methos, he is native german speaker, and can provide reliable german sources. I think he should have even a book written by one of Leopard 2 designers.

Naturaly I also said, that Germans might provided some support, but not as significant as it might look on the first look. As we seen Arjun have much bigger internal volume than Leopard 2, and do not have a turret isolated ammunition compartment.

Knowing that Germans do not have problems with ToT I doubt they would not offer their solutions in this manner.

But there is a bigger problem, for some reasons, none of Arjun designers, or officers that were "inside" the program, never wrote a good, reliable book about development of tank. Pity, because contrary what you might think about me, I am interested in it's development history.

However, the question is, if such book will be a good technical and historical monography, or a propaganda tool, and I would not want to waste time for the latter.

Also good quality factory drawings could be provided. For example in Russian or Ukrainian books, written by designers and people connected to the manufacturer, there is allways plenty of factory technical drawings of vehicles they manufacture, incredible source of knowledge I must say.

Also remember that "sources" you use are not reliable, as there is no proper bibliography that could point out original source of such informations.

 

[ersakthivel]

Ask Methos, he is native german speaker, and can provide reliable german sources. I think he should have even a book written by one of Leopard 2 designers.

Naturaly I also said, that Germans might provided some support, but not as significant as it might look on the first look. As we seen Arjun have much bigger internal volume than Leopard 2, and do not have a turret isolated ammunition compartment.

Knowing that Germans do not have problems with ToT I doubt they would not offer their solutions in this manner.

But there is a bigger problem, for some reasons, none of Arjun designers, or officers that were "inside" the program, never wrote a good, reliable book about development of tank. Pity, because contrary what you might think about me, I am interested in it's development history.

However, the question is, if such book will be a good technical and historical monography, or a propaganda tool, and I would not want to waste time for the latter.

Also good quality factory drawings could be provided. For example in Russian or Ukrainian books, written by designers and people connected to the manufacturer, there is allways plenty of factory technical drawings of vehicles they manufacture, incredible source of knowledge I must say.

Also remember that "sources" you use are not reliable, as there is no proper bibliography that could point out original source of such informations.

http://www.factualworld.com/article/Arjun_MBT

Despite DRDO's attempts at indigenization, the Arjun relied heavily on foreign components and technology. DRDO received major design assistance from Krauss Maffei, the developer of the German Leopard 2 tank, and several other German firms. As a result, Arjun's design is very similar to that of Leopard 2A4 tank.[7] 50% of the tank's components are imported, which include the engine, transmission, gun barrel, tracks, and fire control system[8]

The turret and glacis are heavily armoured and use "Kanchan" ("gold") modular composite armour. The Kanchan Armor got its name from Kanchan Bagh, Hyderabad, where the Defence Metallurgical Research Laboratory (DMRL) is located.[19] The armour is made by sandwiching composite panels between Rolled Homogenous Armor (RHA) to defeat APFDS or HEAT rounds. During the trials in 2000 ,the Kanchan was able to withstand a hit from a T-72 at point blank range, and was able to defeat all available HESH and FSAPDS rounds, which included the Israeli FSAPDS rounds.[19] A new honeycomb design non-explosive and non-energetic reactive armour (NERA) armour is reportedly being tested on the Arjun.[20]

can this also be false?
But you go to google and type Krauss Maffei,developer of the German Leopard 2 tank, provided the design assistance,
See how many links open up.Can they all be false?
Also CVRDE is not a private organization ,they are all government staffs only.They would write something about arjun only after the tank enters inducted in to army in good numbers.It won't be proper for them to write about it before that.Also there are some inconveniences like official secrets act these guys may have to follow.

 

[pmaitra]

It says that the 5 second explosion temperature of RDX is 250 °C. Post explosion an explosive becomes a gaseous mixture.

I have read the document. Please read the document and show me where it says RDX produces 250 degrees C on combustion - just in case I have missed it.

Edit: Please read the abstract.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I seriously doubt that any evidence can be found in German tank history rather Indian tank makers, Arjun program is late 70s program there are no public internet back then, Only such records can be stored in Archives ..

It is very possible that German helped in Arjun program coz Its German who helped India to design its fist fighter jet too in the same era, Afaik back in days German designer had very deep influence in National Indian Defense Industry..

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But again there are no such hard document available on open net to support such claim..

Ask Methos, he is native german speaker, and can provide reliable german sources. I think he should have even a book written by one of Leopard 2 designers.

Naturaly I also said, that Germans might provided some support, but not as significant as it might look on the first look. As we seen Arjun have much bigger internal volume than Leopard 2, and do not have a turret isolated ammunition compartment.

Knowing that Germans do not have problems with ToT I doubt they would not offer their solutions in this manner.

 

[ersakthivel]

just watchthe first video from the site below ---------- from seconds 45to 58

http://www.ovguide.com/kanchan-armour-9202a8c04000641f8000000015b8dc69
just watch the first video
The area occupied by the first storage box looks like being replaced by armor.

If this film really depicts operational arjuns it seems there are no storage boxes till the end of the crew hatch.But the side armor step is also visible.The second film in delhi expo shows a very different view.It depicts storage boxes along side the crew hatch.Not a clear idea of what it's operational configuration is.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?58197-Arjun-MBT

An early production type of the Arjun Mk.1 - note the slightly raised hull and the headlights on the front without their T-72esque shielding cages. Also the smoke grenade launchers are fitted forward of the turret, as compared to the present production type which is located at the back.

This site clears the doubt.The ones in the def expo 2004 in delhi is an older version of arjun.

Is the round cap ahead of the left crew hatch on the turret the one damian is referring to.What is it?Does it go through out the turret top into the crew or it goes through turret and stops on the side armor plate for some mounting?

 

[Damian]

can this also be false?
But you go to google and type Krauss Maffei,developer of the German Leopard 2 tank, provided the design assistance,
See how many links open up.Can they all be false?

It might be, the beauty and horror of the internet is that everyone can write anything, and everyone can then replicate such claim without any obstacle. As Kunal said, the only place where the truth is in the archieves. And I would dive in tho these archieves with pleassure!

Besides my point is proven by your own links.

http://www.factualworld.com/article/Arjun_MBT
http://military.wikia.com/wiki/Arjun_(tank)

Both are the one same.

Also CVRDE is not a private organization ,they are all government staffs only.They would write something about arjun only after the tank enters inducted in to army in good numbers.It won't be proper for them to write about it before that.Also there are some inconveniences like official secrets act these guys may have to follow.

There ae plenty of very good, reliable books that write also about vehicle not inducted in to service. As for Arjun and "official secret acts", nobody says that they need to write such thing in a book, and what is secret? Only real armor and ammunition performance, other things do not need to be kept as secret, why for? Nobody does that.

just watch from seconds 51 to 58
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/w7ISAXZjkzo/default.jpg
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/w7ISAXZjkzo/default.jpg
The area occupied by the first storage box looks like being replaced by armor.

If only you would place proper links...

 

[pmaitra]

I have updated this post and this post in support of my rejection of Damian's claim of 250 degrees C.

Requesting the attention of those that have debated me so far: @Damian, @ersakthivel, @methos, @militarysta, @LurkerBaba (sorry if I missed anyone).

 

[ersakthivel]

Only natural phenomenon observed in labs or discovered using certain techniques are designed into war head tech.Not the other way around.So scientific journals can provide a deep insight into the process of armor penetration than simply ammo maker's info.

 

[ersakthivel]

It might be, the beauty and horror of the internet is that everyone can write anything, and everyone can then replicate such claim without any obstacle. As Kunal said, the only place where the truth is in the archieves. And I would dive in tho these archieves with pleassure!

Besides my point is proven by your own links.

Arjun MBT
Arjun (tank) - Military

Both are the one same.



There ae plenty of very good, reliable books that write also about vehicle not inducted in to service. As for Arjun and "official secret acts", nobody says that they need to write such thing in a book, and what is secret? Only real armor and ammunition performance, other things do not need to be kept as secret, why for? Nobody does that.



If only you would place proper links...

Do you know what official secrets act is?

What kind of oath is taken under the act? the real people will need clearance from the top even to give an interview even for information that is not classified .

You and I can holdforth forever ,which tank is best.But writing a book to advertise all the info on arjun for any cvrde guy must have official sanction from MOD, DRDO and host of other agencies as well.

 

[pmaitra]

Only natural phenomenon observed in labs or discovered using certain techniques are designed into war head tech.Not the other way around.So scientific journals can provide a deep insight into the process of armor penetration than simply ammo maker's info.

The reason why the flame temperature of RDX is difficult to compute is that it is explosive and can destroy the very machine used to compute the temperature.

One machine used is a thermocouple.

 

[pmaitra]

Here is something interesting I found, tests from US Army on RDX.

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA502805

It says that RDX explosion, for 5 seconds, generates ~250 °C.

It does not say that RDX generates ~250 °C. Read it properly.

It says that the 5 second explosion temperature of RDX is 250 °C. Post explosion an explosive becomes a gaseous mixture.

Sorry, I could not post this earlier because I was on mobile.

 

[ersakthivel]

leopard image is below

this is arjun MBT at republic day parade.
In this image the hinges on storage boxes are situated well behind the crew hatch signifying the side turret armor extending halfway till the crew hatch. Some clarification needed on this point.

I think it will have some implications on 60 degree frontal protection.

drawing for arjun.
if we compare the drawing below with the photo above the first side block after the frontal armor plate looks like armor and not like storage box.So the drawings provided by damian for 60 degree frontal protection arc should take this into account.

SO the operational arjun has lesser no of storage boxes on the sides and longer side protection armor like leopard.
Some clarification needed here as well.

But the following is tank Ex which has an arjun turret on some other chasis.In the below image the storage boxes start right beside the crew hatch.This must be one of the earlier prototype shown in def expos.
this is the reason for such confusion over arjun's side armor plate.

the following is another image of in expo which actually shows tank Ex which is an old protoype turret of arjun mounted on the chasis of some T series tank.This is not arjun.So the side armor dimensions of this image should not be taken as a measure of operational ARJUN tank's side armor plate length.

Look at the number on the tank P-18 which is same for both the tank and also look at the smaller wheels on the chasis which doesnot belong to arjun.
I will try to post some more photos to clarify this.
because this tank EX is a discarded model.

 

[ersakthivel]

The first block after the frontal turret side armor has no hinges indicating it is not a storage box.

Compare the new picture of arjun above to the one below P-18 tank -EX.And the difference is obvious.

 

[ersakthivel]

@Damian, @ersakthivel, @methos, @militarysta, @Who,

So the following drawing produced by Damain and methos actually pertains to the discarded tank -Ex and not the ARJUN.

And in mk-2 this blue line goes further than this I think.Clarification needed. And extra side protection in the form of ERA tiles are also added.
These ERA protection can be added on to mk-1 as well.And all the storage boxes of mk-1 can be done away with and beefed up with extra protection with armor in place if neede as kunal already mentioned in his post.

So no side turret weakness exists on arjun.It can have as good a side protection as there is on leo in mk-2 and with upgrades in mk-1 as well.People can go to school and relearn some proper geometry lessons perhaps.And it is all a figment of imagination of some trolls.
Even