Arjun Mk 2 vs. "You name it" Tank

Discussion in 'Indian Army' started by LaVictoireEstLaVie, Feb 9, 2014.

  1. LaVictoireEstLaVie

    LaVictoireEstLaVie Regular Member

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    I wanted to know how the new Arjun Mk2 compares to the likes of Leclerc XXI, Abrams M1A2 SEP, T-90S, Challenger 2 , ZTZ 99A2, etc. in terms of firepower, mobility and protection. Any feedback or input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks !
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2014
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  3. hitesh

    hitesh New Member

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    Arjun mk2 is the most advanced and superior tank in terms of firepower ,protection ,protection, crew comfort India Ever had .
    It is the tank that has integrated best solutions/systems from allover the world .
    It has 6+ Km ranged ATGM launching capability.:brahmos:

    Once fielded it will worlds most advance Tank in its region :hail:

    Now stop creating a whole thread for such simple questions .Do some effort to go through our exist threads on ArjunMk2
     
  4. militarysta

    militarysta Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    In terms of the protection pakistani T-80UD seems to be still the best in the region. Im writing this without beeing on Indian od Pakistani side in this conflikt, I just can juge known fact or this what I known. And pakistani T-80UD is helly good armoured.
    In opposite to Arjun T-80UD have VERY small weak areas.
    In opposite to Arjun T-80UD have constans wery big LOS (line of sight thickness) for turret.
    In opposite to Arjun T-80UD have very good coverage by ERA turret and hull.
    In opposite to Arjun T-80UD have very thick hull front.

    In terms of firepower existing NOW pakistani APFSDS is far better then existing now 120 and 125mm APFSDS in India, when new APFSDS will be DOI in India both countries will have comparable rounds. But not now - anotehr advantage of the pakistani tanks (better munition). Ukrianian FCS and stabilisation mehanism and gun are good. Maybe Arjun II have now silgty better FCS but without better ammo its worth nothing... :-/

    GLATGM like LHAAT doesn't means firepower advantage:
    a) HEAT warhed cal. 105mm can be not enought even vs main armour in T-80UD
    b) soft kill APS (Warta) on T-80UD can lunched smoke grandes and hide tank.
    c) LHAAT is slower then APFSDS, and typical fire range is mucht closer then 6km...

    IMHO Arjun will have better mobility, and slighty better FCS, but till now T-80UD have better protection (mucht better) and propably bigger firepower (ammo + gun + stabilisation).
     
  5. LaVictoireEstLaVie

    LaVictoireEstLaVie Regular Member

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    Thanks for the info but Kunal Biswas had this to say after i posted the same question in Arjun mk2 thread:

    "This is not compression thread, Its only for MK2 ..

    Make another thread to discuss .."


    Btw, Militarysta, i thought the only major difference between a T-80U and T-80UD was that the T-80UD has diesel engine instead of a gasturbine and that the armor suite is more or less the same.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2014
  6. militarysta

    militarysta Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    Oh, no no no :)

    Armour composition is really diffrent in fact T-80UD have really improved armour whit mucht better protection.

    I was writing about this many times in MBT topic on this forum :)

    And here:
    And older T-80U composition is that:

    hull:
    25mm RHA + gap for ERA + 50mm RHA + 35mm STEF +50mm HHS or RHA +35mm STEF +50mm RHA

    for 68. angle (so slopped 22. plate) we have:
    66mm RHA + gap for ERA+ 133mm RHA + 93mm STEF + 133mm HHS/RHA + 93mm STEF + 133mm RHA what give us: ~540-580mm vs APFSDS without ERA

    turret composition is this:

    [​IMG]

    as You can see - two very diffrent compositions
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2014
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  7. LaVictoireEstLaVie

    LaVictoireEstLaVie Regular Member

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    Thanks for the response !

    The Challenger series of tanks seems to have fairly weak front hull with large weak zones (large lower glacis, driver periscope, driver glacis) compared to the Leopard 2 , Abrams and Leclerc series of tanks. The Brits seemed to have attempted to address the issue of the weak lower glacis by mounting a (Dorchester?) armor module in front of it on their latest Challenger 2 (TES) tank named "Megatron". So where as the front turret armor is most likely pretty good and comparable to a Leopard 2A5/A6/A7 , M1A2 SEP, M1A1 AIM, and Leclerc XXI, the front hull armor is not.

    Does the Arjun Mk2 hull armor scheme follow Russian design principles ?
     
  8. sayareakd

    sayareakd Moderator Moderator

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    Tanks are made on the basis of the user requirement and which is based (in case of India) GSQR. GSQR is based on doctrine of war. So two tanks can hardly similar.

    Arjun MK-2 is based on the feed back from the user and its request to improve on the existing Mk1.

    Mk-1 is based on GSQR of Indian army.

    Lots of things which MK2 could have been improved upon but DRDO cant do it as it has to based on user requirement, or else user will not have it and audit will be at their throat for wasting public money.
     
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  9. JBH22

    JBH22 Senior Member Senior Member

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    Pakistanis T-80 is the only thing that I envy they have in their inventory.
    We should have taken more from Ukraine Defence Industry in terms of technology.

    I don't know how Arjun Mk2 fits in Indian doctrine,but what I can say that is it not economically/logistically feasible to have armoured corps with 2-3 types of tanks.
     
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  10. methos

    methos Regular Member

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    Do you really need to ask this question? Shouldn't the answer be obvious in most cases?

    The Arjun MK-2 is a big improvement over the earlier Arjun, but it fails at addressing most of it's big shortcomings. The new commander's sight with thermal sight is good, but the MK-2 still retains the old 120 mm rifled gun which performs considerably worse than it's smoothbore counterparts. While people here tend to claim that there is new improved ammunition (which should be better than the sub-400 mm penetration of the earlier one), there hasn't been any footage of it.
    The armour was improved by adding ERA (of questionable origin) to the front, but the large weakspots all remain uncovered leaving about half of the (unnecessary wide) turret free of ERA.
    And now the engine, which was actually quite nice for a 58 tonnes tank (except it's incredible high fuel consumption), has to deal with a much greater weight.

    The Arjun MK-2 does not compare favourably with top of the line tanks like the M1A2 SEP, Challenger 2 or Leclerc XXI.

    A comparision between the Arjun and the T-90 can be found here: Arjun vs T-90 and here to some extend here: Indian T-90S a sub standard tank?


    The bulge type turret of the Leclerc with it's huge gun mantlet actually is also a quite large weak zone (larger than the weakspots on M1 & Leopard 2, but considerable smaller than the ones on the Arjun turret).
     
  11. militarysta

    militarysta Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    It may be interesting in comparing Arjun and idnian T-90S, I had wrote this some time ago:

    it's sure that india got:

    1) 42 redy tanks in 2001 from Russia - named T-90S (Ob.188S) whit cast steel turrets and well known simple armour from Ob.184 (T-72B) (I had describe it dozens time)
    2) second batch in 2002 (82 tanks) got welded turret whit diffrent armour -it's technology impossible that those 82 tanks have the same armour like previous cast turret tanks from 2001. So armour must be diffrent, but from the other hand - there is no way* that Russia sold it's "own" armour - it's some export armour version.

    And after that we have contract form 2002 about licence prodyction 186 Bishma tanks - and those tank propably have Indian armour couse Russia doesn't sold armour technolgy to India. Af course Avadi factory was unable to produce those tank (quality and technolgy problems) so in 2007 India bought in Russia next 124 redy and produced only in Russia tanks (so whit export russian armour) and partial-redy kits to licented montage next 223 tanks - propably again whit pure Indian armour.


    * I don't know any one example when Soviet/ Russia sold armour/weapons technolgy on it's "own" level. All export variants have "E" or "S" names and they are approved for export - they are just downgraded. Only exceptions are then when some weapons sytem is really outdated but still produced in Russia but the newest version is avaible soon. For exmaple:
    Russia sold to India in 2001 those 42 T-90S whit cast turret and armour like in Russian erly T-90S (or T-72B model 1989) so on technology level on middle 1980s., but in the same time new welded turret whit new non-export armour was avaible in Russia and very soon was DOI.
    Another example - Russia sold to India 3BM42 outaded rounds (1986) - and those rounds is still in service in Russia (and even produced). But in the same time newest 3BM42M (Lekalo) was avaible and newest- newest 3BM60(?) Sviniec-1 was ended both are not allowed for export still, becouse it's newest and top technology.
    So it's sure that russia do the same like US and sold tanks whit export armour, or whit really outaded armour technology.


    (...)
    Propably Indian industry have compare between next Kanchan armour models and Ob.184 armour (T-72B) becouse the same armour -based on cast steel and simple NERA plates was used in fist bathes Ob.188 (T-90) whit cast turret and first variants T-90S. And first bath 40 tanks was sent to India propably whot the same armour as Ob.184 or Ob.188 - it's almoust sure in comanders tansk (K indeks). So im almoust sure that Indian industry and army have chanse to compare obsolate T-72B armour (put in first T-90S) whit new Kanchan. And yes - kanchan shoud be better then those cast steel -NERA plates - RHA plate - cast steel T-90S armour. Russian T-90A (Ob.188A1/A2) carry propably completly diffrent armour, but first bath send to India had propably orginall armour from T-72B and erly T-72s so Ob.1888 do layter T-90 (erly).
    And this will explain a lot I suppose.

    IMHO whole talking about superior Arjun protection over T-90S it's taking from simple fact: if both tanks have the same armour (Indian prodcution) then thickness of this armour is bigger on Arjun -so it will be slighty better armoured. Arjun left turret side have circa 800mm LOS while in T-90A those valu is only for 0. degree. For 30. degree from longitudal turret axis it's only circa 630-670mm LOS. So it was anought to tested both tanks for sucht angle to achive better protection in Arjun. But for the other side - T-90S have mucht smaller weak spots.
     
  12. militarysta

    militarysta Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    As I found Kanchan looks to be rather whole family of armour and it's still be developing while new technology are avaible in India.
    http://i.imgur.com/VCgUI.jpg

    And Kanchan looks preatty simmilar to the polish CAWA-2 armour. I'm mean - lack of the "active" layers inside armour (NERA, NxRA, SLERA, etc) - just passive mulitlayerd layout whit cermaisc steel and other materials. Of course I can be wrong, but I didn't find any mentioned about active or semi-active layers inside Kanchan... This kind of protection is helly far far away form western orgin Burlington (1965) clones: Cobhan (UK), Startflower (USA), Dorhester (UK vol.2), BRL (USA vol.2) and german solutions. But it doesn't meant that Kanchan is bad. I posted layout inside T-80UD - only passive multialyerd layout and protection is really big. Of course obvious cost is the weight of this solution. Western armour is bigger (volumen) but lighter. Anyway - kanchan looks simmilar as polish CAWA-2 in general idea:
    [​IMG]


    What more - Indian industry not only copied (or not - sorry Archer :) ) russian Kontakt-1 and Kontakt-2. Indian industry had developed quite good loking NERA armour:
    [​IMG]

    NERA is simple in devleoped and working mehanism, but it works quite good. IMHO those strange "ERA" on Arjun II hull is NERA layers... And Indian industry had hundret NERA leyers to test inside T-90S from Russia.

    So in fack in India we have cloned (or not ;) ) ex soviet ERA, devleoped NERA armour, and developed rather passive in working Kanchan armour - what can be quite effective (vide T-80UD) if we don't care about turret weight.
     
  13. militarysta

    militarysta Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    I seriously doubt.
    In what way is thicker in Al-Khalid? Are you sure?
     
  14. militarysta

    militarysta Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    Any more datails about chineese tanks?
    There is a lot of the shitty propaganda from sinodefense - If You had any expirience whit chinesee tanks any infos will be welcome.
     
  15. @ militarysta

    there is very little publication regarding kanchan armour in public domain so any kind of speculation/comparison with other armour is purely futile.all we know is that it is similar to burlington composite armour but having different composition and is periodically upgraded.drdo also has manufactured nera(honeycomb designed) and era indegeneously which can be integrated into kanchan armour or used as applique armour modules.
    Science & Technology For Upsc - Singh - Google Books
     
  16. militarysta

    militarysta Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    Interesting :)
    In Al Chalid I made some estimatouse few yers ago -of course they are very imperfect, but I was consider Al-Chalid thema.

    I had based on ZTZ-96 tank:
    estimatous:
    [​IMG]
    reality:
    [​IMG]



    In Al Chalid I have on good photo whit dismounted armour modules:

    [​IMG]











    Yep, I have the sam about Leopard-2A4 in polish army ;)
     
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  17. militarysta

    militarysta Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    yep, I had calculate this, many times :)

    If you want to have max catrige lenght (and the same -40 to 60mm = max penetrator lenght) in Soviet carousel autoloader you have:
    6ETs40 (T-64B)
    T-6ETs43 (T-80U)
    6ETs43-2C (T-64BM Bulat)
    max lenght in casette in autoloader is circa 710-730 mm so penetrator lenght max 650-680mm.

    AZ seriee (T-72 and clones example T-90S) max APFSDS lenght in casette: circa 640mm so penetrator lensght circa 600mm
    AZ seriee modernizated (T-90A, Rogatka, etc) max APFSDS lenght in casette: 740mm so penetrator circa 680-700mm

    Bigger then 750mm max APFSDS lenght in casette seems to be not really possible...




    Insane?

    Well im not so sure if insane :)

    EFC is insane - this value is possible ONLY for trening munition (APFSDS-T-TP) not for normal APFSDS.
    No way - US, German, British and French have more more advanced metalurgy then China, and their barrels have smaller EFC liftime. Here is no mirracle - this value is for trening munition not for normal APFSDS. There is no other option ;)
    Standard EFC for APFSDS-T-TP is 1500-1600 rounds (german L-44 Rh120)
    as Methos long time ago said:
    260 rounds is realistic, for 120 mm DM 53 the German round with the highest barrel wear. 120 mm DM 63 is in the area of 400 - 600 rounds per barrel and for non-KE rounds it is 1,500. You are aware that EFC is a way of measuring via index? M829 equals 3 EFC, M829A1 equals 4 EFC, DM 53 equals probably 6 EFC
    German lightweight Rh 120LLR L/47 120mm have lifetime
    - 800-1400 for trening munitions (sabot/HEAT)
    - 600 for DM63
    - 200 for DM53





    Muzzle is not so important factor. USA M829A3 have muzzle 1555m/s but due to ultralight composite sabot and heavy long rod it can transfer huge MJ to the traget. From other side - mucht shorter but faster DM53 do the same (Methos check this some time ago):

    MJ muzzle penetrator + sabot:
    DM53 L-55 -1700m/s 13,5MJ
    M829A3 L-44 -1555m/s 12,1MJ

    MJ penetrator during fly:
    DM52 L-55 5,8kg 8,8MJ
    M829A3 L-44 ~7kg between 8,1 and 8,4MJ

    for rod only trnsfered energy should looks like this:
    DM53 L-55 4,9kg 7,5MJ
    M829A3 L-44 weight between 6 and 6,5kg so we have between 7,2 and 7,7MJ

    20% shorter DM53 give as the same MJ for target as longer M829A3 :)




    Chamber preassure for chinese gun is "standard" and propably it's max preassure value.

    Ukrainian 125mm KBM1M have circa 650MPa, 2A46M-2 simmilar.
    German "old" Rh120 L-44 have 670MPa, new L-44 have 710MPa, lightweight Rh 120LLR L/47 have 700MPa, etc.

    and here you have very interesting diagram:
    [​IMG]
    On pink you have older then DM53 german ammo and L-44 gun
    for orange you have DM53 and both barrels: L-44 and L-55. As Yo can see the pick preassure is not in chamber but in first 2m of the barrel - it's almoust 950MPa(!) this is insane. But it's explain DM-53 abilities...
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2014
  18. militarysta

    militarysta Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    Yes, im in lets say 90% sure.

    Yes, I know this:

    [​IMG]

    And I had tried to recalculate this:
    [​IMG]
    but error is quite big :(
     
  19. sayareakd

    sayareakd Moderator Moderator

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    if you say it is that good then why they need ERA, plus look at Chinese Type99 tank they had to put in extra protection all over the tank. This goes on to show that Chinese find their tanks without adequate protection.
     
  20. militarysta

    militarysta Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    ERA + armour module is one whole "system"

    is like NERA wedges + 840mm thick main armour in Leo-2A5, or like ERA + 700mm thick main armour on T-80U, etc

    it's just complex way to proect tank against all suspected danger
     
  21. militarysta

    militarysta Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    Interesting, bt form the other hand - APFSDS alwayes will destroy barrel quite fast. For example - eacht shoot by DM-53 tore from barrel circa 125g of mettal :-/ After circa 200 shots barrel must be replaced.
    And polish PT-91 had (using standard 3BM22 :-/ :-/) after few yers not 125 but 127..128mm caliber :( Ech...always problem is the same.
     

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