Firstly, I never made the bridge issue and nor do I support it. Sinking in the sand is a problem for all tanks. So, that is a non issue as well. I never made these statements. So, I don't know how you are accusing me for it.
However, I remember one Abrams being scuttled because it was stuck in sand in Iraq.
And since the great WW-II many tanks of all weights and size have had same problem, some surfaces require very low ground pressure, like a swamp.
Don't understand this part. Can you be a little more clear?
Without the proposed tenders for T-90 upgrade its not superior than the Arjun.
Just because they lost their current deal, LM has a better chance of securing any future deal because of their experience with the F-22. The experience gained in the YF-23 program is lost. The engineers who worked on it will either be retired or dead by the time the US starts a new project. LM engineers have been survived by their new employees who have continued working with the present F-22 and F-35.
Our current private industries lack technology, experience or even the motivation to compete with DRDO. Simply because our companies have made some strides elsewhere we are ready to put them on the throne. They are far from ready. And will need a long time if they need to be able to supplement DRDO.
Boeing lost out on research. Right now the cooperation is in manufacturing. LM is continuing on F-22 related research while Boeing is building up their experience by making Super Hornets and Silent Eagles.
First of all Boeing worked with Lockheed martin on YF-22 and F-22.
Northrop Grumman was the one opposing with YF-23 with their experience on B-2 bomber, and their reserach advanced the technology they had developed in RCS management, Avionics and Materials, this will be used for the USAF next generation bomber project, the research done is very much alive.
Quite wishful and a bit too optimistic. We don't need Russian permission to upgrade the T-90. The T-72 Project Rhino has nothing to do with Russia. Almost all component upgrades are European.
Integrate a new missile or shell on the T-90 and Russians are back in business, its the era of computerised FCS, and the maker still keeps the source.
The BMS and APS on the Arjun are supposed to be indigenous or else the costs will simply sky rocket. A BEL built BMS is already being tested while a BEL built APS with soft kill capability is being tested. The T-90 is supposedly being upgraded with a time tested and battle proven Elbit BMS and also a Swedish APS. Unfortunately I cannot prove either, however, I am sceptical on the Elbit supplied BMS. An Elbit supplied Navigation system is used on the Arjun though, perhaps something similar on the T-90 has been chosen.
Developing an indigenous product, contracts and implementation will take even longer. So, I know which one to choose right now.
A tender requires permission from the ministry of finance and under the new DPP intimation to the parliament, so i guess if there is a tender we would know about it.
The APS will be common for all MBTs and ICVs.
The active part in APS shows a approach to distruct a ATGM in flight.
Why would we chose European armour and increase costs along with time delay when a Russian version has already been upgraded twice?
You asked about where a top of the line ERA for arjun will come from in the next 5 years, i answered with possible locations.
On the contrary can you provide a source saying the ERA is ready? I doubt they will even be used in the comparative trials.
OK
DRDO has mastered varieties of techniques in the areas of propellants, high explosives, pyrotechnics, polymers, etc. Development of ERA was altogether a new area, a challenging task. DRDO has accomplished this task successfully with totally indigenous efforts. This has placed DRDO on the world map of armour developers, a note of which has been taken by pioneer institutes like RAFAEL of Israel, Euromissile of France, etc.
Explosive Reactive Armour (ERA) is an add-on armour designed to offer additional protection to tanks against shaped charge warheads of modern antitank guided missiles (ATGMs). Over the last two decades, DRDO has developed expertise in this vital technology and has a large database of various designs of ERA.
Responding to user requirements of providing additional protection to tank, DRDO has developed an ERA system, which effectively reduces penetration of Milan 2 shaped charge warhead to the extent of 70 per cent.
The ERA developed by DRDO is a sandwich of explosive and metal plates. The panels of ERA are assembled in metallic containers. When the jet of a shaped charge warhead hits ERA panel, explosive in it detonates. As a result, the plates are accelerated and start moving outward in normal direction. The moving plates and the detonaters render the jet ineffective which loses its penetration capability.
Based on RDX, a special type of sheet explosive has also been developed for ERA.This sheet explosive is waterproof. It is not cap sensitive and also quite insensitive to frition, impact and heat. However, it gets initiated by a shaped-charge jet.
The ERA technology has met all the requirements of the user and was accepted for introduction into the Indian Army. The production of ERA panels has commenced in the Ordnance factories.
SALIENT FEATURES
Effectively reduces the penetration of warheads of modern ATGMs.
Immune to detonation against small arms ammunition and artillery shell fragments
No sympathetic detonation of neighbouring panels when one panel explodes .
Minimum collateral damage
The weight penalty is kept to the minimum about 1.5 ton per tank
No initiation by arc welding or by accidental drops.
Tank mobility and manoeuvrability not compromisis.
Functions with equal efficiency even after deep fording by the tank .
Operational temperature ranges from 20 oC to +55 oC .
The technology is totally indigenous, possesses high contemporary innovation element and has made the nation self-reliant in this vital field of military importance. It has saved foreign exchange by eliminating the necessity to import of this technology (estimated cost of ERA kit for one tank in foreign countries is around Rs 48 lakhs), and even has export potential. Being indigenous, the technology can be modified/upgraded with some efforts to meet similar other and futuristic requirements.
http://www.drdo.org/explosive.html
Most of this info is not open source. Go into DRDO website and try searching for Kanchan armour, you will get nothing. So, trying to look for any info from their website is also impossible. However, a ToT on the T-90s composite armour is not coming.
India and Russia have a IPR agreement in place, we can not go outside the contract boundaries and modify a russian product without permission. If there is no ToT and Russia refuses to allow modification we need to keep importing the armour tiles.
A heavy tank with the same upgrades will push up the costs too. Maintaining a Heavy tank with NERA, APS and rest 60% imported electronics will not be cheap either.
Not when the heavy MBTs costs are going down with aggreements in place for domestic manufacturing (which might fall through if the order is stuck at 124), In T-90 most of the tank is imported and assembled here in India, and yet it might end up being cheaper manufactured in Russia than India (ala Su-30).
If the missile can handle a 125mm smoothbore and a 120mm rifled gun then we have to go to France for the T-90 and Israel for the Arjun. All critical products like FCS and Navigation on the Arjun is imported.
FCS on arjun is indigenous computerised one, and its next generation all electric type fire and drive control are already in final stages of development for the ICV project abhay .
We are not a first world country. We don't have their level of funding or even their level of a military industrial complex. If DRDO cannot catch up to their foreign counterparts like IMI, Krauss-Maffei or Chrysler, then the army will obviously go out.
Look at the projected figures of economic and industrial performance for 2030.
FYI, The composite armour on the T-90 is 1000mm and a 340mm ERA over it. Can you get a similar figure for the Arjun because I can't find it?
If i had it i wont give it, dont trust such figures, these are confidential and often heavily under quoted or over quoted by people in the know (they risk loosing their jobs or are trying to market the product).
Even the Americans are going for a 2 tier armour protection. Perhaps even their DU armour is not as good as the kanchan.
Still Abrams need ERA.
Statement of the century. The Americans are fighting the same bunch of guys with RPGs that India will. There are enough places in Pakistan where tanks will get killed on a daily basis, Lahore and the hundreds of towns that dot the border which the T-90s will need to capture. The conditions in Iraq are less extreme than Pakistan. Any Tom, **** and Harry will know that fact. With easy proliferation of Chinese RPG-29s and we will have a blood bath.
At the same time I can use the T-90 to fight Pakistan tomorrow, while it will take me a decade with the Arjun. If I enter Pakistan I will need a working ERA and proven Tank shells. Not untested ERA and brand new tanks shells.
That is just strange, our opponent is a regular army with tanks and heavy ATGMs (for which no ERA works as both shaped charges are massive), and the shells are fired thousands of times before induction.
That doctrine you stated, in both pre and post cold start time concentrates on occupying lands and cutting off major population centres, nowhere does the army intend to control a city, as that bogs them down rids them of the advantage to maneuver in a maneuver warfare and risks there supply lines.
Please read about the previous battles and have a look at the map
US army in Iraq and Russian army in Chechnya faced a enemy in urban scenario where the tanks supporting infantry was suppressed while the anti tank team fired from a preferred vector and distance like the top of roop which gave a top attack profile, or the basement of a building which gave access to the bottom parts of the tank (vulnerable in all profiles front or side), in open field tank battle the situation is very different and frontal armour protection against Kinetic rounds is very important.
Will T-90 work, yes it will excel with all the possible upgrades, Arjun will also achieve the same results with more protection.
A battle to cut supply routes and occupying territory for post war negotiations is very different from a occupation of a city where the opposing force is able to fight with the death with a thousand cuts mentality.
These two situations could not be any more different.
Many people falsely claim that T-series tank have ineffective armour and ERA based on Russian experience in chechnya, which is incorrect as the tanks were in a urban setting where the terrorists were able to attack from a distance and angle of their choosing, perhaps a tactical mistake, but in no way a reflection of the tanks ability.
I cannot prove it. It is by word of mouth. If the Army does release this, again the media will pounce on it because the deal will further increase the costs of induction of the T-90 which actually holds no truth because a similar Arjun tank will be even more expensive.
Any major tender if accepted or paid for will be in the know.
I would have been happy if a ERA, APS equipped Arjun would have come out in early 2000 instead of post 2010. The time line has already defeated the purpose of inducting the Arjun. Even in the 2001 tests the Arjun had too many problems that were not fixed even after 10 years of testing. Post 2020 the army hopes to induct their 2020 tank or FMBT.
Yes. And that's why the Army has asked DRDO to continue developing the Arjun and then come out with a FMBT post 2020 either on their own or wit foreign help. The T-90s are basically a stop gap for the FMBT. All because the Arjun was late.
The only mentioned time line for FMBT is 2030 and its not been mentioned that many times (nothing is for certain).
p2prada;114554
No it won't. You are simply echoing the media. The Army has made it clear that they need a FMBT post 2020.
[url said:
http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/army-wants-futuristic-mbt-death-knell-for-arjun/41594/on[/url]
Lt Gen Dalip Bharadwaj, Army Director General (Mechanised Infantry) is not a lone army officer. Even if he is, his statement is enough. And the source is PTI. The 2 names itself should be enough.
He also said in the same briefing
"Tank-X is a hybrid of T-90 and T-72, which are both contemporary technology tanks. There is no point in having technologically obsolete tanks for warfare two decades hence,"
"Army will no more place orders for Arjun beyond 124 that was already contracted. That is because Army is now looking 20 years ahead and wants a futuristic MBT,"
And he stated the timeline as around 2030 for induction.
If the army requirements for the Arjun MBT are met they will have to buy more, MoD is the boss, even after saying that they will not place any more orders, there will still be trials for more.
Throughout your post your position is that media is somehow against T-90 which is incorret, its mostly col. Ajai Shukla right now, and before 2005 he openly criticised the Tank.
And eveyone knows that the Army doesnot want more than the 124 arjun MBTs, its not in doubt, the discussion is why should they take more, no one here or in the media can have any bearing on the final decision, this is just a discussion on what if and why should they, like the many carried out in online forums about what if we had kept on pushing forward in 1971 or why should some candidate win the indian idol etc. etc.
