Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

Discussion in 'Indian Army' started by nitesh, Feb 12, 2009.

  1. ppgj

    ppgj Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2009
    Messages:
    2,029
    Likes Received:
    154
    some useful info -

    http://www.domain-b.com/defence/general/20090526_arjun_main_battle_tank.html

    http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/03/mbt-arjuns-new-defensive-aid-system.html
     
  2. notinlove

    notinlove Regular Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2009
    Messages:
    466
    Likes Received:
    20
    Location:
    All i can do is be me, whoever that is.
    PPGJ Don't you think too many things are under trials or under development? don't you think this can be one of the reason why the army is still not fully comfortable with arjun. and don't you think we need to change the turret design as it is obsolete? please share your views :)
    another thing that i would like to ask anybody who would care to explain . can the same BMS as used on the arjun be fitted on the T-90 too?
     
  3. Agantrope

    Agantrope Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2009
    Messages:
    1,247
    Likes Received:
    65
    BMS in Arjun can be fitted with in theT-90?? also the Kanchan Armour??
     
  4. ppgj

    ppgj Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2009
    Messages:
    2,029
    Likes Received:
    154
    nil,

    it is a natural progression to any machine. you don't get any machine anywhere in the world which takes into account all possibilities of an unknown future. hence all machines go through incremental upgrades as technologies become available and are mastered. the same holds good for T-90 or MBT Arjun.

    take the BMS. it is already there and which will be fine tuned down the line. but the army is still in the process of networking its assets. it will be of use only in the coming time.

    http://www.defenseworld.net/go/defe...duct network-centric artillery system&id=3165

    hardly if you go by our army's tantrums. MBT Arjun is considered among equals among similar heavy tanks including Abrams.

    i have posted this before in full. will give the link again. check for yourself - http://frontierindia.net/dissimilar-combat-arjun-mbt-vs-t-90s-specs

    on almost all parameters, Arjun scores over T-90.

    it can be changed along the way if need be. remember Arjun is the result of ARMY's GSQR. check - http://frontierindia.net/history-of-arjun-tank-development

    again, i have posted this before.

    i am not sure. may be possible. strange thing about army is they want DRDO's help in making T-90 better!! while all included Arjun is a NO for them inspite of it being better.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2010
  5. kuku

    kuku Respected Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2009
    Messages:
    505
    Likes Received:
    1
    From your link, thats could be primarily a 105mm gun from the 80s, armour and ammunition had moved on since then, so what relevance does that report have on the current scenario in India?

    Adding weight depends on the power to weight ratio and ground pressure, which is roughly the same in western and Russian tanks

    Arjun is more than T-90, 24 hp/tonne vs 21hp/tonne, in terms of ground pressure Arjuns is Ground 0.84 kg/sq.cm. and T-90 has 0.91 kg/sq.cm, so by that data it seems T-90 is worst suited for any weight penalty.
    Taking a hit and rolling depends upon the amount of damage the hit does, if you get hit on your tracks there is no way you can move without repairs, what are you taking about, if the T-90 takes a hit the ERA explodes, which can cause crew members to get injured by fragmentation of the inner wall as a responce of ERAs explosion, and any tank which suffers a hit which doesnot kill its crew or damages its systems is going to roll.

    from your link
    If these types of fantastic sourceless articles suit your fancy the Arjun stood up to latest available Russian and Israeli kinetic penetrators at point blank range, not from 1500 meters away.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2010
  6. notinlove

    notinlove Regular Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2009
    Messages:
    466
    Likes Received:
    20
    Location:
    All i can do is be me, whoever that is.
    I wish you would pay more attention.Please read more closely before embarking on your journey to disparage everything related to russian tanks.
    This is from my previous post.
    Now read this.
    See anything alike?

    So you do agree that if hit at the right spot even the arjun would be rendered uselss, as opposed to your previous arguments that it would keep rolling on and flatten everything?

    You went on to wiki read a couple of lines about ERA and decided that the armour is in itself a danger to the crew inside, maybe you forgot to read about the anti neutron or kevlar layers installed inside the tanks which does not let the inner wall to fragment.Moreover the ERA plates are made so that most the power of the explosion is directed towards the outside and not inside.

    from your link

    Again please go through the link, the source is provided in that article, the tests were official russian army tests, the data is provided by a Lt. col of the russian army and the name of the testing institution is also given. if these are Fantastic sources , then i would like you to show me a less fantastic source which claims that the arjun stood all those blows.
     
  7. notinlove

    notinlove Regular Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2009
    Messages:
    466
    Likes Received:
    20
    Location:
    All i can do is be me, whoever that is.
    @PPgj
    This is the view i agree with, i suppose you also meant the same .... if otherwise please lemme know.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2010
  8. kuku

    kuku Respected Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2009
    Messages:
    505
    Likes Received:
    1
    Well i said they could be, they are not, so how is this relevant to the Indian Scenario?

    You need tank gun and KE round figure to judge the effectiveness, the technology has evolved from the 1980s. Just because Pakistan has a KE penetrator doesnot translate into judging the penetrators effectiveness based on tests for 1980 ammo and gun technology.

    And that is what i am asking, how are figures from 1980s relevant to 2010?

    Any tank hit in the right place will be rendered useless, there is no difference here between T-90, Arjun, M1A1 or any other tank.

    Your arguments of rolling after a hit are childish, if a explosive doesnot penetrate the tank and all the systems are working there is no question of tanks capability to carry on with operation.

    Spall liners have been around for a long time same things were done to counter HESH rounds yet injuries happen there is no fool proof solution, explosive reactions (shockwave and fragments) of the ERA are one of the reasons for development of nonexplosive reactive armour.

    This is the only thing mentioned about source which is hardly official army test results.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2010
  9. notinlove

    notinlove Regular Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2009
    Messages:
    466
    Likes Received:
    20
    Location:
    All i can do is be me, whoever that is.
    That was Advanced US tech of the 1980's and as we all know any advanced US tech makes its way into subcontinent only after a space of 15-20 years, moreover it makes sense as i have shown you that pakistani's also use DU shells. also in the second article that i posted it clearly shows that T-90 took hits from T-80 and survived This makes IMMENSE sense in indian scenario because pakistan also uses T-80.
    Thank you, you are probably only one of the few people who have acknowledged this fact and Sir this rolling after a hit argument is definitely not my argument,if you look at this thread from the start you would find this argument used quite a number of times to support the arjuns armour which i also find childish because my point is any tank can be rendered useless if hit by the right weapon at the right point which now i know you also agree with.

    what i am tryin to say here is, that yes though the ERA explosion causes shock waves, it does not cause enough shock waves(of the magnitude of a HESH round) to cause fragmentation inside the tank which is strong enough to go through current generation spall liners ,you can guess this by the fact that current generation spall liners have even rendered HESH rounds futile that is why everybody except the british has moved on to APFSDS,moreover in an ERA tile the lower plate is significantly more thicker than the upper tile hence the blast waves tend to go outward as compared to inwards.



    it also gives the name of the testing institution.
    ATW Testing Center NPO "Geodezia"

    clearly states Data provided by, don't you think if the data was not provided by an official source and the site was providing wrong data claiming it came from a government institution then the testing institution would have done something about it?
    i don't know how much more official can it get.
     
  10. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

    Joined:
    May 25, 2009
    Messages:
    10,233
    Likes Received:
    3,834
    Location:
    Holy Hell
    It would be more feasible after completing the Arjun up to Mk2 standard. Perhaps set new design principles and go for a new generation tank.

    The YF-23 design has not been used in any subsequent projects till date. Private companies work at a profit/loss POV. Researching and developing the YF-23 and its subsequent cancellation meant the private companies share prices were unchanged, while the competitor, LM's prices soared. Sure, there was no loss to the company, but there was no gain either. So, such ventures come at a big risk.

    Then what is the point of supporting a home grown project if the engine, transmission, electronics are all imported. So, we simply have to induct Arjun for the sake of inducting and make a lot of fanboys happy while delivering a similar capability against a cheaper T-90.

    Arjun has no immediate plans for an APS. The T-90 APS is coming. The Arjun engine is still under development while a T-90 engine upgrade is just around the corner.

    The BMS is still not working to your specifications. The present system has GPS and only helps with communicating with the other tank commanders. That's about it. The one you are talking about has not been implemented or tested. The T-90 has a similar system in place too. The NCW modules will have to come out of our workshops or off the shelf from Israel or the US.

    The contract can be signed and implemented within a year or two. It is just electronics.

    The kaktus is not the best in the world....agreed. But, can you give me another option that is available to us. No country will give ERA. The DRDO ERA is far from ready. Even ToT on the Kaktus was denied.

    It is part of the manufacturing process. The T-90s coming out of Avadi will have an advanced derivative of the Kanchan that was supposedly developed with Israeli help for weight reduction. This was confirmed in the Ural defence expo some years ago.

    A T-90 with a new armour, new electronics and higher capabilities as against the T-72. The Arjun with a new armour, new electronics and higher capabilities as against the T-72. The T-90 is cheaper to build, maintain and employ. So, there is only one obvious choice.

    Haha. Now you are being sarcastic.

    I highly doubt the truth of that statement. We use ToT as an excuse for our own short comings in all our defence deals till date. The Russians never provided ToT on the armour and their stand was made clear even before the project was implemented. An indigenous armour was hence created. The time delay was due to various studies on the feasibility of the project. Then the Israelis popped in and helped us out.

    You are a bit too optimistic about our capabilities. If you are suggesting we can make a better tank in the coming 20 years, then let's have DRDO forcing tanks down the Army's throat after 20 years and not now.

    We do not know that aspect. The T-90 Kanchan derivative is supposed to be really good too. It is a more advanced version of the Arjun.

    T-90 has already seen two ERA upgrades and will see more. Arjun is yet to be seen with even a locally developed one.

    Er. So, you say a 2 tier protection is not better than a 1 tier protection? Even the Abrams is being upgraded with ERA due to the proliferation of cheap Russian RPG-29s.

    The T-90 APS tender has been signed last year and the first batches will be reaching soon. The Arjun does not even have a APS plan as of now.

     
  11. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

    Joined:
    May 25, 2009
    Messages:
    10,233
    Likes Received:
    3,834
    Location:
    Holy Hell
    That's why a new engine upgrade is required. Also, the ground pressure ratio of a heavy tank and a medium tank cannot be compared.

    A fat man will have lesser pressure compared to a thin man due to the area of the buttocks. :) But, it does not mean the fat man is thinner than the thin man simply because he exerts lesser pressure.

    A bridge than can handle 50 tons cannot handle the Arjun. This has nothing to do with Ground Pressure.
     
  12. ppgj

    ppgj Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2009
    Messages:
    2,029
    Likes Received:
    154
    (just the other day you were calling him an imbecile!! surprise you agree with Ajai shukla now. :D)

    anyway on a serious note,

    Ajai shukla is exactly echoing what i was trying to tell you.

    look NIL, i or other people here are not saying T-90 is bad. what we are saying is Arjun is superior to T-90 on most parameters. i gave you the link in my previous reply to you on this. also, Arjun is the result of army's GSQR and not DRDO's fancy. now look at Army's methods adopted to both the tanks.

    in the case of Arjun - they dilly dally, delay, manufacture problems by way of sabotage (link given before), refuse trials and scuttle the induction.

    in the case of T-90 - just look at the Ajai shukla post which is on the forum. they go for a dumbed down version - to get price advantage - and incrementally add on to get to the final version which is still a long way off. 8 yrs has passed in the bargain. still costs as good as Arjun!! something fishy??? don't you think.

    in the case of Arjun - a teething problem is blown out (remember they only created the problem!!) of proportion inspite of being set right. Arjun is made to slog more than necessary to prove itself. poor thing still proves itself!!!! albeit with a black box on. enough links on the thread about this. so i wont try finding them.

    in the case of T-90 - army has problems too, whether it is air conditioning, FCS failure, indian ammunition not getting fired or even this -

    http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/08/indian-army-has-decided-to-replace-main.html

    still, they brush it under the carpet and coolly go about as if nothing is serious!!

    we, who support Arjun, are not doing it for the sake national pride or because we hate russian product. we do, because we want our army to have the best tank presently available. that's it.

    at the same time things that have happened can't be undone. so, let's look at the future. what is that future?

    T-90 is already in numbers and more or less fresh. they have lot of life still. so can't be replaced.

    but what about T-72's? they are old by a loooong shot. what is prudent way of dealing with them? will upgrading all of them take them anywhere? i think not. why? because the tank frame has a life. with whatever upgrades you do to them is not going to make them a T-90. does it mean we don't upgrade any of them? ok, here is where i disagree with Ajai shukla. my points are simple.

    even if Arjuns replace T-72's, it will take 10 yrs minimum to do that. hence what i was telling you before.

    start replacing the from the oldest lot of T-72's with Arjun progressively. at the same time start upgrading some newest T-72's too. this way you have capabilities of Arjun (which will run side by side with logistics improvement), numbers and a mix of T-90/Arjun/T-72 upg.

    doing that you add more capital to the Arjun project so they can bring in futuristic technology into Arjun along the way. you also create more jobs besides adding to india's capabilities to be independant in the defence sector and immune to foreign arm twists.

    gift the retired T-72's to friendly countries like Nepal, Srilanka, Bangladesh, Maldives and even some african countries and create a good will for India.

    i agree with Ajai Shukla's article except for the T-72 upgrade part because of our lunatic neighbour who is unpredictable. we need to be prepared all the time for any eventuality.
     
  13. ZOOM

    ZOOM Founding Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2009
    Messages:
    577
    Likes Received:
    10
    I read that travese of Arjun turret is 180 degrees, what is the same for T-90s and T-72s.
     
  14. notinlove

    notinlove Regular Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2009
    Messages:
    466
    Likes Received:
    20
    Location:
    All i can do is be me, whoever that is.
    well,
    Lets look at this from the broader perspective,

    Army decided to buy T-90's in 2001, let us see where india was in 2001

    Armies position: they had just fought a war in 1999 , parliament had been attacked,moreover operation parakram was afoot , tensions were running high between the neighbours, Pakistan just inductited superior T-80UD and army had not inducted any new tank in about 6-7 years.

    Political situation : NDA govenment in its previous term had lasted just about 13 months and this was its second term,Huge controversies regarding the army took place after kargil(coffin scam and all) a very dangerous environment to make high profile new deals.

    Economic situation : Asian financial crisis followed by the Dot com bubble burst had left the economy rattled, nobody had any clue as to where the economy was headed.

    India and the World : Suffice to say the situation was pretty opposite as compared to today , we were under sanctions from the west and nobody except russia and france was willing to help us out.

    Arjun Project : Engine overheat , transmission failure , problem with gun sight , problem with fire suppression system , problem with suspension system to name a few also a heavier tank which meant considerable investment in infrastructure.

    Indian army went with the best thing it could get a new russian tank noody else would sell anything to us . Nobody could guess at the time that the arjun would magically come around in a space of 7 years , the army made a plan and planned to induct new T-90's to replace old tanks,
    They did what should have been done.if anybody thinks that the arjun was better than the T-90 in 2001 he/she is welcome to prove it.they found the thermal imager to be inferior and hence went for the best western imager they could get the catherine from france , though they botched it up by not testing it properly.

    What we are not understanding is The army is not buying tanks as of today They were buying them in 2001 and they will be buying them in 2020 , the DRDO missed its first chance of 2001, and the army has invited them to try again in 2020(refrences by the generals to the drdo to make a futuristic mbt), but DRDO has made such a hue and cry that we have fixed it now Buy it(don't you think this behaviour is a bit childish on DRDO's part) imagine if tommorow boeing comes out and says we have made a better plane then the F-35 please cancel the project and buy our planes instead.

    Why the Army showed price of T-90 as less?
    Well what could have they done, after the coffin scam and economic crisis if they had asked for a tank that costs twice as much as the T-72 then the Deal would have just got stuck in bureaucracy and red tapism , even ajai shukla has said in his most recent article that army did what they did to cut through unnecessary red tapism, we should be thanking them for being brave and doing this , not condemning it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2010
  15. kuku

    kuku Respected Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2009
    Messages:
    505
    Likes Received:
    1
    Your provided article in doubt, and if you follow the procses there has been more types of kinetic penetrators, to say that you know the performance of Pakistani ammunition based on a assumption is not something i will like to believe without some sort of explanation, meanwhile the basis of your assumption, that post in military forum contains the incorrect article.
    http://www.militaryphotos.net/forum...-Examination&p=3012608&viewfull=1#post3012608
    Many inconsistent views remain in that post, for example the effectiveness of contact-1 reactive armor tiles which were primarily meant for anti HEAT ammunition role, the GAU-8 cannon fires a top attack profile its not supposed to be fired at the frontal armour, the german defence people i have interacted in online forums say that the NVA tanks did not have any ERA, and the DM33 was able to penetrate the tank.
    About the rolling after a hit thing, i think its a stupid concept.
    http://www.btvt.narod.ru/4/kontakt5_.htm
    The russians are not claiming anysuch thing, there is always a risk that any explosion on surface will cause fragmentation on the inside or damage to equipment, there is nothing you can do about it, however its something one has to accept, like faulty ammunition.
    The HESH rounds are not futile, they were not as effective as they were before, as in its better to fire a kinetic or HEAT round (better chances of success)You can reduce it but the risk is always there.
    You taking about a explosive than is able to negate the speed of a kinetic round to a degree that helps the armour inside absorb rest of the blast, there will be some damage.
    In the end its essential for the Soviets to do this as their armour is not thick enough, along with other steps like active defences.
    I can right now start a site and register the domain russiaarmytanks, upload a couople of pages claiming information from all sorts of arbit defence people, that does not prove anything, and its not credible, moreover no one can do anything about online information, just go check several civil pakistani defence sites.
     
  16. kuku

    kuku Respected Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2009
    Messages:
    505
    Likes Received:
    1
    Till this point i have seen absolutly no information on a uprated engine tender for the tank, probably when it comes it will change the figures, again in the same ballpark.

    Bridges made to handle the specific weight of 50 tons, you might find some bridges which can handle 10 tons (OMG lets design a 5 ton tank). Probably looking at the several zones where the tanks have to operate (big plane area with canals and a large plain desert all the canal crossings wired to explode as soon as threatened ) would be better than this argument which is used quite often.
     
  17. notinlove

    notinlove Regular Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2009
    Messages:
    466
    Likes Received:
    20
    Location:
    All i can do is be me, whoever that is.
    PPgj,

    When india bought the T-90 pakistan didn't have anything even remotely close to a panoramic sight or hunter killer ability , thats why we didn't go for it as we were trying to keep the deal cheap at the time,
    now that pakistan has got panoramic sight on their AK's we are also going for it , i don't think there is anything wrong with that.

    Also , i think you misunderstood something

    As far as i can comprehend you me and Mr. shukla in his latest post all agree on what should be done with the T-72's.
     
  18. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

    Joined:
    May 25, 2009
    Messages:
    10,233
    Likes Received:
    3,834
    Location:
    Holy Hell
    I was only giving an example on how throwing around non issues will not get us anywhere in our discussions. The T-90 is a medium tank while the Arjun is heavy. Even with a greater ground pressure, the manueverability of the T-90 is not questioned by anybody in the world.
     
  19. ppgj

    ppgj Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2009
    Messages:
    2,029
    Likes Received:
    154
    in essence, you agree that the army has no VISION.

    pakistan buys Abrams, let's go for a heavy tank (Arjun).!!
    pakistan changes to T-80, so let's shift to T-90.!!
    they don't have panoramic sight, let's not have it.!!
    they have it now, so let's have it!!

    crazy!! why we have to keep looking to pakistan to plan for our selves??

    yes, in 1999, Arjun was not ready. but when it became ready what happened?? scuttling, delaying tactics!!

    like what??

    we may agree. but who is going to convince the brats in the army??
     
  20. kuku

    kuku Respected Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2009
    Messages:
    505
    Likes Received:
    1
    Like throwing around a non issue of weight has not had that impact.

    The point of pointing out the power to weight ratio, ground pressure, transmission and suspension is to counter the argument that Arjun MBT is less maneuverable or that it will sink in the sand, this bridge issue you came up with is not new, and believe me it can be an issue in mountenaus regions where often times you have bridges which are over 50 years old, its not a issue in open field deserts, and the canals past the punjab plains will have their crossing blown up as soon as there is a threat.

    As it stands without the multiple tenders that is not the case.
    Softwares made to work with the PTD, RAM materials developed, research into composites, a generational development of FCS and avionics, all that research was useful, without it in the next tender they wont have any way to compete against the same competitor.

    Without risk there is only one business its called a monopoly based PSU, if 20 years from now indian private firms are afraid of that we would be in the same economic conditions we are in now.

    Eventually both companies cooperated on F-22 and F-35.
    Quite simple put It has more indigenous parts than T-90, and subsequent changes to domestic components under development does not require express Russian permission, provides a soft landing platform for development of indigenous technology.(which would keep on happening as projects mature)
    Your far away from the point, the BMS will work with any system T-90/Arjun/T-72, its not a consideration in deciding which tank to choose, it will work on both tanks at the same time.

    If you read the specification of the active protection system, its the same damn thing, they can be used on any tank/ICV/BMP you want to use them on.

    This is India, contracts and implementation in a year or two is wishful thinking.
    Open up any Swedish, German, Israeli manufacturers site, all options are available to anyone who chooses to purchase them, could you provide a source for the DRDO ERA (being far from ready)?
    Could you give at least any indications from the OFB, Russia or the Army regarding that, as right now most of the information available shows different things, Russian plans are to keep on selling their materials, they wont agree to this in the contract.
    Again with the cheaper argument, right now as has been reported the cost of T-90 has gone up, will go up further as upgrades are carrier out and its not going to be cheaper to operate just because its a medium tank.
    No, guess where we have to go when we want to make modification to the FCS to accommodate a domestic missile?
    Well as i doubt your sources, the tank is delayed none the less, products designed, i trust our own scientists, you trust the russians. The ToT on the gun was a well documented issue.

    The tank is as good as the T-90 and better in terms of technology in transmission, suspension and with a stronger armour.

    The current capabilities in mechanical technology and electronic technology are on their way up every thing from engine design to microchip design will rise to new levels, in 20 years the army will still be concerned about tanks already in service and common heritage to go for russian option, we need at least 20 years to start indigenous induction.

    Yes i am saying exactly that, the 2 tier protection is their to compensate for the smaller protection through the composite armour.

    Abrams are being upgraded under TUSK, a upgrade program for urban conditions in Iraq, hardly the battlefield we are looking for.
    Where is the tender? Haven't seen it anywhere, let alone the payments or the delivery schedule, will be nice to see know this.

    Strange that the simple situation that indigenous work can be upgraded steadily, and provides us with the ability to manufacture to our standards, still misses to hit home.

    Short sighted decisions provide us with nothing.

    another Ivan, there is no money for T-95, hell the great Russian army did not have night vision for the georgian war, and there is nothing so special about the T-90 that scores over Arjun MBT, The plan now is to upgrade the current huge inventory and go for a replacement later, which sits absolutely opposite the plans for Indian Army Induction timeline.

    No the army has not made anything clear, thats the comments of a lone army officer, and you should post the comment in full, i have very interesting observations to make on the comment.

    That said the army has stated what it wans and its the T-90, no point wasting time there all the contracts for T-90 and T-72 upgrades need to be signed asap, hopefully with Arjun replacing the huge number of T-72s in the desert section of our border to at least 500 nos, otherwise it will takea round 40-60 years to even think of a indigenous tank program and inventory, the only justification for that could be that we see our engineering industry at the same level in that time along with the economy.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2010

Share This Page