Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT) Mark II

Blood+

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2011
Messages
2,785
Likes
4,351
Country flag
Strictly in Indian context, Rifled Gun preform better than those smooth bore gun,
Sorry but I find that extremely hard to swallow!!How is the Indian context anymore different than the others??Are facing some different types of threats that are completely unique to our context and threats which can not be countered by smooth barrel guns??If that's the case, then I would certainly want to know about those unique threats and if that's not the case, then your reasoning behind clinging on to a rifled gun from the 80s era doesn't hold any water I'm afraid.
This achievement based on multiple factors which counts not only include Gun but FCS and superior crew training indeed, But Gun is one of those prime factor which cannot be ignored
In the context of the comparative trials, the gun wasn't really a prime factor since the relative performance of the different ammunition was not a criteria and since, can be and should be ignored from the equation altogether.
when India Army wanted it to be carried on,
Exactly, and that's what I can't fathom.Why the hell would they carry on with an outdated and weaker gun from the 80s when cheaper and better alternatives can be made available within a relatively short order??And if they love rifled guns so much, they why didn't they bat an eye while selecting their T series tanks??Something doesn't add up.
Tanks guns don`t use APFSDS most of the time
That depends.
but regular rounds like HEAT and HE
Rifled guns are not suited for HEAT rounds since the spin imparted from rifling affects formation of the metal jets.
in case of Arjun MK2 its thermobaric rounds with lower chamber pressures ..
Yes, a round that can be optimised for smooth barrel guns with little difficulty!!All you need to do is just add some fins in its ass and voila!!
If we wanted a smooth-bore its no rocket science as we are already making our own version of 2A46M as because of Tot issue, I personally have no issue if Indian Army finds 120mm smooth-bore a gud option, It would be welcome move in my opinion..
Great, glad that we are on the same page here, between you and me, sir.
============

We are talking about MK2 and hence related ammunition with it and its development history ..
Alright, no problem there.

1. The CAG Report No.24 of 2011-12 (Defense Services) explains the development of DRDO Mk-2 round:

“Ministry of Defence, Department of Defence Research and Development (DDRD) in May 1996 sanctioned the above project at a cost of INR 2.30 crore to be completed by May 1998. It was sanctioned by DRDO without GSQR from Army HQ. The project after four revisions of probable date of completion (PDC) and three cost revisions, was closed in December 2004 after an expenditure INR 7.27 crore. The ammunition developed by the Laboratory did not meet the Users’ requirement as Users expressed an apprehension as to whether the trials conducted for MK-II ammunition in the absence of GSQR for this ammunition would qualify as user trials. To resolve the issue, the ammunition was subjected to Accelerated User Cum Reliability Trials (AUCRT) in August 2007 which again proved to be unsatisfactory. Ministry of Defence in its reply in February 2011 stated that trials with 30 rounds of improved ammunition, have been successfully completed in May 2010 and Army HQ has given go ahead for accelerated user trials with 500 rounds of the improved ammunition. Ministry’s reply should be viewed in the background of the fact that even after a lapse of 15 years the ammunition is yet to be inducted. Such ammunition is still being imported by Army.”




This ammunition is into production in 2015.

-------------


I was already aware of it and there's nothing contradictory to my earlier statements.

DRDO has also developed the Mk-2 version of its earlier 120mm round for Arjun tank using same rod ..

And merely adding more powerful propellant and lighter sabot petals will have a rather marginal effect on the end result, at least no where near to the extent necessary to bring the penetration value at 500+ level at 2 km, as has been stated.
===========
===========

The objective is to archive 650mm @ 2000ms, This will be accomplished in time and cannot be expected in short time considering India`s reach of technology from outside ..
Which means, it has been outclassed even before its very inception and that too, by rounds designed in the previous decade or even previous century if we are to count the M829A2's value as true!! :(
 

Kunal Biswas

Member of the Year 2011
Ambassador
Joined
May 26, 2010
Messages
31,122
Likes
41,042
That does not depend by a fact based on two points following :

1. Tank barrel life degrades ( T-72M1 barrel in Indian Army has life of only 250rnds back in 2001, T-90 bhishma`s has 500rnds as 2010 ) with high pressure rounds, In its life majority in peace time it fires low pressure rounds such as HEAT and HE even in exercise mostly ..

2. In conflict, A Tank is called upon providing close support to Infantry or creating deep penetration in enemy lines, Majority of times a tank vs tank battle are rare ..

Not some theory but in practice around the globe, You can conform this to any service man in Armour of any country you like ..

===================

Indian Army on purpose pitched for Rifled gun on purpose, As told before multiple factors are responsible for an result, People in Army who advocate for rifled gun were proved correct in combine trails,

Every gun has some degree of error in zeroing regardless what ever FCS they use, Its lesser with Rifled gun with regular rounds from a tank gun, Its simple physics ..

Selected people who come up with strange RFI were entertained before, Its not the same any longer, I don`t want to start abt this particular subject in this thread as the topic is covered in various others before various times ..

==================

Arjun`s gun had 120mm HEAT but was not called into service, It might be easily said than done by multiple PHDs and with cores of rupees, Our scientific community is not a stupid, Majority of delays are caused by red tapes and error in official documentations so does poor work by L1 bidders ..

Indian Army make requirement taking regional threads, Not global ..



Sorry but I find that extremely hard to swallow!!How is the Indian context anymore different than the others??Are facing some different types of threats that are completely unique to our context and threats which can not be countered by smooth barrel guns??If that's the case, then I would certainly want to know about those unique threats and if that's not the case, then your reasoning behind clinging on to a rifled gun from the 80s era doesn't hold any water I'm afraid.

In the context of the comparative trials, the gun wasn't really a prime factor since the relative performance of the different ammunition was not a criteria and since, can be and should be ignored from the equation altogether.

Exactly, and that's what I can't fathom.Why the hell would they carry on with an outdated and weaker gun from the 80s when cheaper and better alternatives can be made available within a relatively short order??And if they love rifled guns so much, they why didn't they bat an eye while selecting their T series tanks??Something doesn't add up.

That depends.
Rifled guns are not suited for HEAT rounds since the spin imparted from rifling affects formation of the metal jets.

And merely adding more powerful propellant and lighter sabot petals will have a rather marginal effect on the end result, at least no where near to the extent necessary to bring the penetration value at 500+ level at 2 km, as has been stated.

Which means, it has been outclassed even before its very inception and that too, by rounds designed in the previous decade or even previous century if we are to count the M829A2's value as true!! :(
 

tharun

Patriot
Senior Member
Joined
Jul 9, 2014
Messages
2,149
Likes
1,377
Country flag
That does not depend by a fact based on two points following :

1. Tank barrel life degrades ( T-72M1 barrel in Indian Army has life of only 250rnds back in 2001, T-90 bhishma`s has 500rnds as 2010 ) with high pressure rounds, In its life majority in peace time it fires low pressure rounds such as HEAT and HE even in exercise mostly ..

2. In conflict, A Tank is called upon providing close support to Infantry or creating deep penetration in enemy lines, Majority of times a tank vs tank battle are rare ..

Not some theory but in practice around the globe, You can conform this to any service man in Armour of any country you like ..

===================

Indian Army on purpose pitched for Rifled gun on purpose, As told before multiple factors are responsible for an result, People in Army who advocate for rifled gun were proved correct in combine trails,

Every gun has some degree of error in zeroing regardless what ever FCS they use, Its lesser with Rifled gun with regular rounds from a tank gun, Its simple physics ..

Selected people who come up with strange RFI were entertained before, Its not the same any longer, I don`t want to start abt this particular subject in this thread as the topic is covered in various others before various times ..

==================

Arjun`s gun had 120mm HEAT but was not called into service, It might be easily said than done by multiple PHDs and with cores of rupees, Our scientific community is not a stupid, Majority of delays are caused by red tapes and error in official documentations so does poor work by L1 bidders ..

Indian Army make requirement taking regional threads, Not global ..
Tank barrel life is just 250-500 odd rounds? You need new barrels to replace them?
 

tharun

Patriot
Senior Member
Joined
Jul 9, 2014
Messages
2,149
Likes
1,377
Country flag
Yes, After reaching certain limit they have to be replaced or else they will burst ..
So how many barrels are replaced with in the life time of a tank?
How much would be cost of barrels and do they are imported or made in india?
 

Chinmoy

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2015
Messages
8,761
Likes
22,778
Country flag
That does not depend by a fact based on two points following :

1. Tank barrel life degrades ( T-72M1 barrel in Indian Army has life of only 250rnds back in 2001, T-90 bhishma`s has 500rnds as 2010 ) with high pressure rounds, In its life majority in peace time it fires low pressure rounds such as HEAT and HE even in exercise mostly ..

2. In conflict, A Tank is called upon providing close support to Infantry or creating deep penetration in enemy lines, Majority of times a tank vs tank battle are rare ..

Not some theory but in practice around the globe, You can conform this to any service man in Armour of any country you like ..

===================

Indian Army on purpose pitched for Rifled gun on purpose, As told before multiple factors are responsible for an result, People in Army who advocate for rifled gun were proved correct in combine trails,

Every gun has some degree of error in zeroing regardless what ever FCS they use, Its lesser with Rifled gun with regular rounds from a tank gun, Its simple physics ..

Selected people who come up with strange RFI were entertained before, Its not the same any longer, I don`t want to start abt this particular subject in this thread as the topic is covered in various others before various times ..

==================

Arjun`s gun had 120mm HEAT but was not called into service, It might be easily said than done by multiple PHDs and with cores of rupees, Our scientific community is not a stupid, Majority of delays are caused by red tapes and error in official documentations so does poor work by L1 bidders ..

Indian Army make requirement taking regional threads, Not global ..
Apart from all these, what I feel compel IA to choose rifled gun over smooth bore is lack of required Tank simulator for firing exercise. Rifled guns are more accurate then smooth bore ones over a distance, but the downside of it is the lost of KE of the rounds it fires till that distance and its being maintenance heavy.
What is the status of the ATGM? AFAIK LAHAT has been dropped from the plan.
 

Kunal Biswas

Member of the Year 2011
Ambassador
Joined
May 26, 2010
Messages
31,122
Likes
41,042
They are testing CLGM, Its in user trails ..

Barrels are made in India, Barrel life is lower compare to other foreign guns as their is little technological reach ..


What is the status of the ATGM? AFAIK LAHAT has been dropped from the plan.
So how many barrels are replaced with in the life time of a tank?
How much would be cost of barrels and do they are imported or made in india?
 

airtel

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2015
Messages
3,430
Likes
7,814
Country flag
What is the status of 1500 hp water cooled diesel engine , on which DRDO was working ?
 

tharun

Patriot
Senior Member
Joined
Jul 9, 2014
Messages
2,149
Likes
1,377
Country flag
They are testing CLGM, Its in user trails ..

Barrels are made in India, Barrel life is lower compare to other foreign guns as their is little technological reach ..
May i know what type of technology is we are behind them?
 

Kunal Biswas

Member of the Year 2011
Ambassador
Joined
May 26, 2010
Messages
31,122
Likes
41,042


Their is so much less we know abt our own, Its a achievement that crew of this tank can fire 30rnds in a min, With 80% accuracy, Wonder how Arjun crew do with their`s gun ( No taking official 6rnds per min general benchmark for all MBTs in service ) ..
 

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top