An explanation, please

Discussion in 'West Asia & Africa' started by W.G.Ewald, May 15, 2012.

  1. W.G.Ewald

    W.G.Ewald Defence Professionals/ DFI member of 2 Defence Professionals

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  3. The Messiah

    The Messiah Bow Before Me! Elite Member

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    Yes both are semitic. Infact jews came from egypt only.
     
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  4. W.G.Ewald

    W.G.Ewald Defence Professionals/ DFI member of 2 Defence Professionals

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    To me it indicates the use of the term racism without thinking.
     
  5. The Messiah

    The Messiah Bow Before Me! Elite Member

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    Thats because the person saying it is an idiot. His true meaning when he says racism is that israel is a jewish state rather than a secular one, but even if it were it still makes him a hypocrite since he too wants egypt to be an islamic state rather than a secular one.
     
  6. Razor

    Razor CIDs from Tamilnadu Senior Member

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    Yeah. Jews and Arabs can both be classified under Semitic.
    But Jews did not come from Egypt. Jew (Yehuda) is more of a religious term. A more accurate term for the race would be Israeli/Hebrew. Israeli people are descendants of a character named Israel (who was previously known as Yakov/Jacob). Yakov was originally from Canaan, which is in present day Israel/Palestine regions.
     
  7. Razor

    Razor CIDs from Tamilnadu Senior Member

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    Last edited: May 15, 2012
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  8. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    They are both Semitic.

    Going by mythology, they are half brothers. Here's why:

    • Ibrahim/Abraham + Hagar = Ishmail/Ishmael -> Arabs
    • Ibrahim/Abraham + Sarai/Sarah = Ishaaq/Isaac -> Jews

    The common ancestry is that of Abraham. Hagar was Egyptian, and the Jews were from Egypt till they left, led by Moses and chased by Rameses II. However, Jews are not considered Egyptians.

    Believe what you want to.
     
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  9. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    This reminds me of a few days long debate I had at ARRSE.

    It was about whether calling a Pakistani a 'Paki' is supposed to be racist. Not to me, although I do not use that word myself. There are two reasons. One is relevant to this thread, and that is, Pakistanis and Indians are the same race. The second reason is etymological, and self bestowed (i.e. the Pakistanis chose to call themselves 'the land of pure').
     
  10. Razor

    Razor CIDs from Tamilnadu Senior Member

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    It's Abraham + Sarah = Isahaac/Isaac. And Yakov and Esau are the twin sons Isahaac.
    In any case, Yakov was one lucky guy when it came to women. Oh boy, the good old days.
     
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  11. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    Ahh, you are right. Thanks for the corrigendum. I will amend my post.
     
  12. roma

    roma NRI in Europe Senior Member

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    most accurate explanation so far .... both had the same ancestor father being Abraham . Abraham's original name was Abram and his (Only ) wife's name was Sarai - they were childless, although they tried . : Abram had a dream wherein he was promised a son but it wasnt happening in reality . So Sarai suggested Abraham do it with her handmaid named Hagar ...he did so and Ishmael was born .Ishmael is considered the father of the Arabic race which technically is not considered to be semetic but rather Hamitic . later Abram ( hebrew meaning = High Father ) had another "dream" in which he was instructed to change his name to Abraham hebrew meaning = Father of a Multitude ) and Sarai ( hebrew meaning = princess ) was to change her name to Sarah ( Princess of the Mutitude ) ...rhe change in name was to signify that Abraham and Sarah were to bring forth a MUltitude i.e a nation . that nation would be called Israel ( Hebrew meaning = one who prevailed with Big G )

    Following the chnage of name the "dream" promised that they would have a child in a year . Sarah laughed when informed , but indeed a year later at age 90 she gave birth to Isaac ( Hebrew meaning = laughter )

    to cut a long story short Isaac had two sons jacob and Esau

    So technically Arabs are from Abram X Hagar whereas Israelis are from Abraham x Sarah , so one can argue from the Hebrew point of view that even the father was not quite the same .

    the name Israel was the name of Abraham's grandson who was originally called Jacob ( Hebrew meaning = deceiver ) but in a "dream" he wresled with and "angel" and showed such desire to be blessed that the "angel" re-named Jacob to Israel because he wrestled with a supra-human and yet almost prevailed

    Now i have ommitted a lot of religious matter and modifieed the accounts above to be more acceptable in a multi-religious forum and as the poster ive quoted said " believe what you will"

    For a fuller account read elsewhere not least the bible - in the book of Genesis !!!
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2012
  13. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    ^^

    I had made a whole lot of mistakes. I have corrected my post.
     
  14. Scalieback

    Scalieback Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    That's really only a question that the CRE (Commission for Racial Equality) can answer. Have a look at this to see if it aids your understanding: Paki - Wiktionary
     
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  15. Razor

    Razor CIDs from Tamilnadu Senior Member

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    Do you mean to say that a name change, changes the man and hence the race. That's BS.

    You know some interpretations of the Old Testament say that Jacob means "the one who Supplants" because he supplants his fathers property and name from Esau who was the rightful owner and that Israel means "The one who struggles with God" and that it was God himself who was defeated by Jacob.
     
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  16. civfanatic

    civfanatic Retired Moderator

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    Yes, Jews and Arabs are both considered Semites and have similar ethnic origins. However, many/most Jews currently living in Israel are recent immigrants from Europe, so there are considerable cultural differences between them and the Palestinians who have been living in the land for centuries uninterruptedly.
     
  17. roma

    roma NRI in Europe Senior Member

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    First point about name chage = different person
    I mean "technically " - in the english anglo-saxon culture a name change = nothing great ...not so in the hebrew culture of that olden day .... in that henrew culture , your name was chosen only after great deliberation and often the grandparents and council of elders would be consulted what name to give a child ...in the ancient hebrew culture ( not todays' israel ) a name signified your character and much more important , your DESTINY i.e. what you would amount to in Life !
    also please realise that we are using romanizations of Abram adn Abraham and in english they look similar whereas in the original hebrew script , they are rather different

    second point you are right on both counts and indeed so am i -?? both explanations persist
    supplanter = deceiver supplanting is a form of deception ) .... Jacob supplannted his brother esau on two occasions - firstly at the point of birth - esau was to be born first but jacob grabbed his heel ( what does that signify ? - that another long topic but it signifys supplanting or deception, trying to take over ) ...secondly when about to be blessed by their almost blind father Isaac , jacob agreed to go along with his mother's suggestion to deceive ( sounds familar ? ) his father and receive the blessing which actually was for his elder brother esau - so we see the deveptive quality coming in

    your other point that jacob wrestled with God and not an angel - if he had wrestled with God he ( jacob ) would have died instantly - a lesser being ( read angell ) wrestled with Jacob is therefore the majority christian point of view ...although a minority say it was "God"

    ps i am doing a phD in christian minsitry ( doesnt mean i MUST be right ) -t just as a reference point to know where im coming from - but again as colleague pmaitra said " believe what you will" ´
    best regards ,
    roma
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2012
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  18. ejazr

    ejazr Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Its a translation of Arabic statement that he made in the interview calling an "Ansariyah" state

    The word in this context refers to apartheid although you can also use it to mean racist. It literally means segregation

    So the entire debate of jews and Arabs being genetically of the same race isn't really the point being made in the first place. It was about the Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza living segregated or apartheid lives. This is in contrast to Israeli Arabs who do have the right to vote and other political rights. People often confuse this important difference.

    Its his point of view but atleast we should debate the point of view accurately rather than go by bad translations.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2012
  19. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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  20. W.G.Ewald

    W.G.Ewald Defence Professionals/ DFI member of 2 Defence Professionals

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    The story of Esau selling his birthright to Jacob is a long one found in the Book of Genesis.

    Esau - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     
  21. roma

    roma NRI in Europe Senior Member

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    just to put a finishing touch to my posts above ( but please continue posting on this most importatn topic - it has caused us tremendous unnecessary conflict so far, hasnt it ? )

    Abraham's descendency ( progeny ) includes a guy called Noah -
    Noah had three sons - Ham , Shem and Japeth

    Ham - father of Afraican and Arab peoples = Hamitic ( equatorial peoples - equator up to the 23rd parallel ) )

    Shem - father of Semetic peoples - Jews and mediterranean peoples - including from my point of view , the people of middle and Northern India ( tropics up to the 40th parallel )

    Japeth - father of all the far northern peoples = germanic , tungustic , siberian , korean , Japanese, kamchatka, Sakha people ( grouping tungustic and siberian people together with germainic is a pet project and a particularly personal point of view which i guess will attract healthy criticism - i believe they have the same climatic influences on them and have v similar characterisctics ) ( 40th parallel to the poles )

    yeah ! - and im expecting a lot of flak for this post .....hehehehe ...underline - my point of view on Japeth ....

    but regarding Arab being Hamitic and Israelis being Semetic, that part is majority "christian" point of view - dont take my word for it - please do your own research and please post here.

    nevertheless, being the part Indian than I Am, ( and we are a multi-ethnic nation ?) i have always adopted member Ewald's point of view and i would translate that as : we're all human , we really ought to be getting along a lot better than we seem to be doing ( i hope i have understood his post correctly ) and it wins a "like "
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2012
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