25 billion dollar PAK-FA deal crash lands

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by LETHALFORCE, Apr 24, 2016.

  1. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2009
    Messages:
    20,551
    Likes Received:
    6,556
    I said this would happen years ago seems to be true?


    http://www.newindianexpress.com/the...l-to-Crash-Land/2016/04/24/article3396450.ece

    NEW DELHI: India has a record of sour defence deals. While the Rafael deal with France to buy 36 fighters jets at nearly `60,000 crore is stuck over a year despite announcement made by PM Narendra Modi during his Paris visit in April 2015, India’s biggest defence buy with its old military hardware partner Russia threatens to crash. It is thrice bigger than the French deal and concerns 127 Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) costing over $25 billion. `1,500 crore, which India has already paid for preliminary design of the aircraft, may go down the drain. It is the IAF—despite desperation to strengthen its combat fleet—that has put its foot down, citing differences with Russia, the co-developer of the FGFA project.

    In an internal communication to the Ministry of Defence, the Air Headquarters has flagged at least 15 objections to the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA), ranging from fighter’s unreliable engine, poor stealth features, and inadequate radar to its high cost overrun. The letter sent last month has virtually grounded the entire program.

    “Under the present scenario, only a political call can revive the program,” a highly placed source said.

    In fact, IAF went further to slam Russians for not giving access to the developed prototypes of the aircraft to its pilots. Moreover, it also expressed apprehension that the Russians would not share critical design information with India because they have deliberately reduced the Indian work share despite India’s huge expenditure on the preliminary design. India’s work share in FGFA research and development and other aspects of the multi-billion dollar project at the moment is nearly 10 per cent, even though Delhi is bearing 50 per cent of the project cost.

    In 2007, the Congress-led UPA government had signed an inter-governmental agreement with Russia to co-develop the next generation FGFA. It was followed by the $295 million (`1,483 crore) preliminary design contract (PDC) in December 2010. The overall FGFA project cost for making all the 127 fighters in India was pegged at around $25 billion.

    The preliminary design stage of the FGFA programme was completed in June 2013 based on a contract signed in December 2010 with the Russian side.

    As per the Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) signed in October 2007, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is the designated implementation organisation from the Indian side. HAL is supported by agencies, including Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and Council for Scientific and Industrial Research (CSIR).

    The programme requires further $6 billion towards its research and development contract. Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar-led defence acquisition council has to give its approval for the R&D contract. It is believed that the delivery of FGFA to the IAF will begin only after nearly eight years from the start of the R&D contract.

    “The ministry is in a dilemma over the future of the program after resistance from the IAF. But simultaneously, the Indian government has already spent a sizeable amount of Rs 1,500 crore on the program. And if the program does not make, spent money might go in waste,” said an official. This deal created controversy during 2011, when a clause was inserted in violation of the defence procurement policy to give contract to Russia to provide International Private Leased Circuit (IPLC) bandwidth connectivity between Bangalore-Moscow-Irkutsk to lay communication lines between the two partners.

    IAF’s depleting combat strength has been a cause of concern as it is down to 34 fighter squadrons against 42 of its authorised strength based on certain projections in the next couple of years. IAF is getting four squadrons of Su-30 and subsequently indigenously built Light Combat aircraft Tejas is expected to fill the critical requirement of the force.

    Collision Course

    ■ IAF claims developed engine of FGFA was not reliable

    ■ Inadequate radar and stealth features

    ■ Huge cost over-run

    ■ India’s reduced share. Lack of participation by IAF in the design phase

    ■ IAF apprehensive that Russia will not share technology
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2016
    Dark Sorrow and SajeevJino like this.
  2.  
  3. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2009
    Messages:
    20,551
    Likes Received:
    6,556
  4. SajeevJino

    SajeevJino Long walk Elite Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2012
    Messages:
    5,656
    Likes Received:
    3,032
    Location:
    Inside a Cage
    .

    hope the money could be invested in the AMCA ..Who needs a semi stealth PAK FA for only air to air missions
     
    Indx TechStyle and Dark Sorrow like this.
  5. Superdefender

    Superdefender Regular Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2016
    Messages:
    977
    Likes Received:
    655
    This "crash land" article is definitely an old one presented in a new package. There is no info of the recent sharing of $4 billion anywhere in the article. The most near date of the article is Apr 2015 and it is a recent news!! #propaganda
     
    Illusive and Jay Patel like this.
  6. Superdefender

    Superdefender Regular Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2016
    Messages:
    977
    Likes Received:
    655
    This "crash land" article is definitely an old one presented in a new package. There is no info of the recent sharing of $4 billion anywhere in the article. The most near date of the article is Apr 2015 and it is a recent news!! #propaganda
     
  7. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2009
    Messages:
    20,551
    Likes Received:
    6,556
    Rumor has it deadlock could not be broken on modi Russia trip?
     
  8. Gessler

    Gessler Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2016
    Messages:
    821
    Likes Received:
    1,389
    Location:
    Vizag, India
    I will reproduce what I've already stated in the PAK-FA thread...

    Collision Course



    I do not think IAF is going to buy any FGFA with the existing 117 version. We are looking at the Izdeliye-30 specifically. Even the present engine is far more reliable & has longer HSF and TBO figures than the AL-31 versions IAF currently operates on Su-30MKI.

    It can still supercruise and achieve climb rates of upto 384m/s which is the highest among any modern fighter, F-22 included.

    "Not reliable" is a vague word and I doubt any serving IAF officer would use such a word.



    Another utterly vague term that no-one with an ounce of knowledge about aircraft will make. First of all, what you're seeing right is the prototype T-50 series. It still does not have many of the RCS-reduction features and RAM coatings that the production aircraft will have...and how exactly FGFA might turn out is unknown.

    Even then, trying to determine a plane's RCS value or how easy it is for enemy radar computer to recognize just by looking at pictures of it's prototype is something an idiot or internet fanboy would do. It requires professional radar/EM testing and calibration to determine that.

    Basically, they're trying to measure the RCS of a plane that does not exist as of know. Pure idiocy. And I'm again sure no serviceman will make such statements unless he has vested interests and/or the mediaperson who uses the term "IAF source" is lying and talking out of his a$$.

    And as @Bahamut said, PAK-FA's SH-121 radar complex is the most advanced onboard fire-control radar in development anywhere. No other plane has more arrays, a larger FoV or more advanced TRM architecture.



    Where???? We recently concluded that the FGFA development will actually cost less than anticipated before.

    https://www.rt.com/business/330026-india-russia-fighter-aircraft/

    "Negotiators made a breakthrough last month deciding to lower investment cost to $4 billion for each country."

    "The 2008 deal is projected to cost each country $6 billion, adjusted for inflation. India’s state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics and Russia’s Sukhoi have agreed to cut costs by 40 percent to $4 billion each over seven years."

    This single point proves that this article-writer is shit.



    I do not think they actually even finished discussions on what all should be incorporated in the Indian version...and this guy already knows exactly what is India's share and if IAF is in the design team or not.


    First of all, whether Russia shares tech or not is none of IAF's concern. All they care is whether they get their plane or not. Whatever ToT is involved will be absorbed by the local industry, if they feel Russia is not sharing enough, it is they who will complain - not IAF.

    Secondly, as long as local production of the Indian version takes place, it means Russia has shared enough ToT already. If anyone is having delusions that "transfer of tech" means that Russia is going to open up all their IPRs to the Indian industry, I'd suggest you guys stop dreaming immediately.

    ToT means the transfer of production-engineering knowledge which enables HAL and/or Private companies to successfully build components for the plane and carry out the final assembly here.

    Nothing more, nothing less.

    Radar/EW codes might be shared for the specific purpose of enabling us to update the onboard threat library as and when we wish with new info and enemy target signature characteristics.

    It does not mean we can plagiarize their IPRs and build copies as we like,...we are not China.

    This "IAF source" is obviously a phony. The article is written by an American lackey.
     
  9. Gessler

    Gessler Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2016
    Messages:
    821
    Likes Received:
    1,389
    Location:
    Vizag, India
  10. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2009
    Messages:
    20,551
    Likes Received:
    6,556
  11. Gessler

    Gessler Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2016
    Messages:
    821
    Likes Received:
    1,389
    Location:
    Vizag, India
    Nope, unrelated.

    AFAIK it's we who haven't fully decided whether we want S-400 or not.
     
  12. spikey360

    spikey360 Crusader Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2011
    Messages:
    2,285
    Likes Received:
    2,116
    Location:
    The Republic of India
    Seems to be some click-bait. In any case, IAF should be over-ruled, disbanded and a new Air Force should be raised. IAF is proving itself to be the major headache.
     
  13. Gessler

    Gessler Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2016
    Messages:
    821
    Likes Received:
    1,389
    Location:
    Vizag, India
    :scared2::scared2::basanti::basanti::scared2::scared2::india::india::hippo::hippo:
     
    Anupu likes this.
  14. Bornubus

    Bornubus Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2015
    Messages:
    4,213
    Likes Received:
    7,037
    Pak FA is 4.75 Gen aircraft according to aviation enthusiast here on DFI

    The original idea was to buy Pak FA and use it tech in our own AMCA.

    It seems F 22 is the true 5th gen aircraft out there.
     
    SajeevJino likes this.
  15. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2009
    Messages:
    20,551
    Likes Received:
    6,556
    This deal was going to run into trouble from the beginning India agreed to 50 percent of the funding without going into details of the TOT. It was initially an exclusive Russia and India collaboration then Russia decided it will also sell
    Su-50 to China and others. Great business moves by Russia from beginning ; India again in compromising position. MRCA deal failed and looks like this will too. Russia can still make it beneficial for them let India out of deal and have China fund it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2016
  16. Gessler

    Gessler Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2016
    Messages:
    821
    Likes Received:
    1,389
    Location:
    Vizag, India
    No one has seen the completed PAK-FA.

    Even with presently available info, it is unrivaled in the field of aerodynamic performance & electronic active/passive situational awareness. Some stealth-shaping is traded for performance but that's a design choice and fully intentional.

    It is a skewed anaolgy when people automatically equate stealth shaping = 5th gen. And anything that doesn't fit the Raptor's idea of airframe design = 4.5 or 4.75 gen (what the hell is that??).

    AMCA is a pipedream.
     
  17. spikey360

    spikey360 Crusader Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2011
    Messages:
    2,285
    Likes Received:
    2,116
    Location:
    The Republic of India
    They won't let China in on their PAK-FA secrets. Not yet, anyway. Why, you may ask. Well, China and Russia are competing powers in the non-nuclear strategic space. Although they collaborate a lot on paper on geo-strategic issues, collaboration on the ground is non-existent. The Russians don't view the dishonest Chinese as friendly people either.

    What the GoI should do/could do is threaten to pull out of PAKFA deal and ask the infinitely wise and competent IAF to bring home a 5th Gen FA with all the PAKFA features, in same numbers. Then we'll see how the IAF manages. The most corrupt branch of the armed forces.
     
  18. garg_bharat

    garg_bharat Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2015
    Messages:
    2,001
    Likes Received:
    999
    @LETHALFORCE, there is no indication that fgfa is dead.

    There is all kinds of speculation, which usually comes to nothing.

    I would give couple of months more to see if USA/India honeymoon lasts. It is a marriage of incompatibles, so better to keep hopes down.

    If USA origin fighter fails to take shape then it will be back to Russia as we clearly cannot afford European fighters in numbers needed.
     
    Jay Patel and spikey360 like this.
  19. Gessler

    Gessler Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2016
    Messages:
    821
    Likes Received:
    1,389
    Location:
    Vizag, India
    MMRCA deal did not fail - we found the aircraft we wanted and now we're doing direct negotiations and first 36 aircraft already finalized. More will be built here as part of Make in India.

    FGFA will not fail because India has no alternative. There is no other 5th generation air-superiority fighter available in the international market.

    We never paid a penny for PAK-FA development - that is fully Russian money and whoever they sell it to is their choice. What we're paying for is for developing an India-specific version of that aircraft.
     
  20. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2009
    Messages:
    20,551
    Likes Received:
    6,556
    Many of the systems needed for a fifth gen plane have not been developed yet
    by Russia . The date for pakfa rollout was 2017-2018 doubt you will see anything
    Before 2020. Only vympel seems to have some bvr's in testing other things yet to be developed?
     
    Bornubus likes this.
  21. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2009
    Messages:
    20,551
    Likes Received:
    6,556
    After the investment of time and money India has made I hope it is not.
    I am still skeptical that this deal will ever happen and even if it does it will be 2025 before anything materializes. So a huge gap in Air Force needs will remain unfilled.
    I do not believe most of these articles as many are funded by defense industries from different places.
     

Share This Page