1962 India China War

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,132
Likes
23,835
Any campaign is won, not by an single Service. It is won by a synergy effected by jointmanship.

The Air Force has a clear cut task and so has the Army and Navy. Yet, all have to work in tandem complementing each other to achieve the tactical and the strategic aim.
 

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,132
Likes
23,835
Can Air Power Alone Win a War?

Bruce GottliebPosted Wednesday, April 14, 1999, at 6:21 PM ET

Many pundits are criticizing the NATO airstrikes. An argument you often hear is that "Air strikes alone never work." Is this really true?

Most military historians (at least those not employed by the U.S. Air Force) agree that it's true. No country has ever won a war or achieved its stated political objectives without committing ground troops or at least using warships. Moreover, some historians make the even stronger claim that air power has never been a decisive factor in a military conflict. To take one example, scholars think Japan surrendered in 1945 because of the Allied naval blockade and Russia's invasion of Manchuria, rather than because of atomic and conventional bombings.

Of course, deciding what factor was decisive and which were merely contributing is a tricky business. As Richard III's famous cry--"A horse! a horse! my kingdom for a horse!"--illustrates, a number of factors, some quite trivial, dictate a battle's outcome. But the important point is that there is not one example of a war being won with air power alone. That is, the historical record argues against President Clinton ordering airstrikes while ruling out the use of ground troops.

But some believe that when it comes to air warfare, history is bunk. After all, everyone agrees that an ideal air strike, if perfectly precise, could completely destroy an enemy's entire military and civil infrastructure, thereby forcing surrender. And everyone agrees that bombs are getting more and more sophisticated over time.

The dispute is whether they are sophisticated enough right now to have broken the historical pattern whereby bombing alone is insufficient. There are some within the Air Force--such as Col. John Warden, the architect of the Gulf War bombing raids--who believe we have reached such a point. Warden even argues, and this is controversial to say the least, that air power was the decisive factor in the Gulf War.

Naturally, the debate over whether technology has broken a historical military pattern is technical, arcane, and beyond the scope of this column. But it is worth noting that over the ages, theoreticians, often employed by various national air forces, have consistently overestimated the efficacy of air power. Just after World War I--the first major conflict to involve air power--Giulio Douhet, the head of the Italian air corps and the father of modern air warfare theory, famously argued that future wars would be found exclusively in the air. Douhet thought sustained bombing of enemy territory would force surrender and even estimated the number of mustard gas bombs required for each square mile of enemy territory. And in World War II, the British were so frightened by the threat of German bombing attacks that they ordered 250,000 caskets for immediate use, when in fact only 50,000 civilians died during the entire Battle of Britain. Finally, many post WWII theoreticians wrote that the atom bomb meant the end of ground warfare, since the threat of nuclear attack would ensure universal peace.

Next question?

Explainer thanks John Hillen of the Center for Strategy and International Studies, Robert Pape of Dartmouth College, and Earl Tilford, Jr. of the Army War College.

Link
 

Kunal Biswas

Member of the Year 2011
Ambassador
Joined
May 26, 2010
Messages
31,122
Likes
41,042
Typical.
WW2: After all the pounding in 1944, The Third Reich in Berlin was still intact.
Gulf war: After all the pounding Iraq received the Iraqi Army was still intact.
Kosovo: After all the pounding the Serbian Army was perfectly intact.
Kargil: After all the pounding, the militants and NLI were evicted by the Army.
Ask any analyst. Any serviceman in the officer class with years of service behind him. Ask any General. Ask any Air Marshal. He will tell you one and only one thing about air warfare.
It is not a match winner.
Your post contain no quality or enthusiasm, hence no reply..
 

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,132
Likes
23,835
My personal opinion is that air power itself will not be able to win wars.
 

p2prada

Senior Member
Joined
May 25, 2009
Messages
10,234
Likes
4,015
Any campaign is won, not by an single Service. It is won by a synergy effected by jointmanship.

The Air Force has a clear cut task and so has the Army and Navy. Yet, all have to work in tandem complementing each other to achieve the tactical and the strategic aim.
Sir, IMHO modern warfare is simple with the advent of air power.

Move your troops in such a way that the enemy starts grouping together. Once grouped, bomb the point to bits using air power.

Grouping the enemy on the Himalayas is impossible. Or you could say the enemy will not let you group them or bomb them.

My personal opinion is that air power itself will not be able to win wars.
Kosovo, Vietnam are examples of this. The US with their vast power could do nothing to either Serbia or the North Vietnamese. Too much reliance on air power and less boots on the ground. The same situation they present themselves in Afghanistan too. Of course the situation is different from Vietnam.

This will give you an effect of air power

THE UNITED STATES STRATEGIC BOMBING SURVEY

http://www.anesi.com/ussbs02.htm
Sir, the American way relies heavily on air superiority. It is not achievable in the India-China context.

Tell me if I am wrong in this;
India China war: 2011

IAF get into shooting match with PLAAF.
IAF do a bit of air interdiction. PLAAF primarily depend on air denial.

As long as the PLAAF birds are getting shot down, but are able to keep Indian birds away from the ground troops, then PLA has no interest in who wins or loses the air war.

IA and PLA have to rough it out by themselves while IAF and PLAAF mostly do their own thing. Without Heavy Bombers in our inventory any attempts at using air power to thwart the enemy is quite a HUGE task.

Therefore, air power in 1962 or in 2011 in the India China scenario is not quite the American version of air power.

Also something from the article;
In the attack by Allied air power, almost 2,700,000 tons of bombs were dropped, more than 1,440,000 bomber sorties and 2,680,000 fighter sorties were flown. The number of combat planes reached a peak of some 28,000 and at the maximum 1,300,000 men were in combat commands. The number of men lost in air action was 79,265 Americans and 79,281 British. [Note: All RAF statistics are preliminary or tentative.] More than 18,000 American and 22,000 British planes were lost or damaged beyond repair.

Quite a list there. Something not possible in our current avatar. 1.5Million bomber sorties. :)

In the wake of these attacks there are great paths of destruction. In Germany, 3,600,000 dwelling units, approximately 20% of the total, were destroyed or heavily damaged. Survey estimates show some 300,000 civilians killed and 780,000 wounded. The number made homeless aggregates 7,500,000. The principal German cities have been largely reduced to hollow walls and piles of rubble. German industry is bruised and temporarily paralyzed. These are the scars across the face of the enemy, the preface to the victory that followed.

All that power has only "temporarily paralyzed" a country the size of Madhya Pradesh. 1.5 Million bomber sorties and 80% of the structure is still standing.

All this when the Germans are known only to have a basic industrial capacity and lesser boots on the ground.

Most of the air war focuses on civilian and military infrastructure. There is little or no such targets in the Himalayas. Now in the China context, to what end can air power assist if all we can manage are 80MKIs in the sector?
 

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,132
Likes
23,835
P2P,

Warfare is complex.

There is no single template for victory.

It depends on the Situation.
 

p2prada

Senior Member
Joined
May 25, 2009
Messages
10,234
Likes
4,015
P2P,

Warfare is complex.

There is no single template for victory.

It depends on the Situation.
Agree sir. Anyway can I ask your view on how much IAF could have helped in 1962?
 

captonjohn

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2010
Messages
580
Likes
278
Country flag
Nobody should neglect importance of airpower. This is what makes US a super power and always keep their hand upper side due to strong air force and control over enemy sky region. If air force is not that much importance then why US is spending that much in F-35, F-22 and many more. Of course air force can't win a war but it can make definitely give enough damage to enemy so that he can't win that war. Air force can prevent enemy to win war and that is my friend is more worth than deploying thousands of tanks to defeat an army without air superiority.
 

The Messiah

Bow Before Me!
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2010
Messages
10,809
Likes
4,619
Yes airforce alone can't win a war....ultimately you need soldiers on the ground to do that.

But a superior or competent airforce makes sure that the enemy doesn't win either. Without dominance over the sky you can't win wars in todays climate.
 

roma

NRI in Europe
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2009
Messages
3,582
Likes
2,538
Country flag
Its all behind us now 1962 nothing can't be done about that but the problem is that no lessons has been learn from that debacle additionally we have political masters who do not have an idea about national security or if they care about that at all.The only thing that is innate to all Indian politicians is that they are always mired in internal political rife so this doesn't allow them to focus on external politics.

I would say imho something like US presidency is the answer to the chaos of Indian political class
complete agreement - and in the move towards a more presidentioal system would be a reduction in the number of political parties - even the usa and britain have just 2 and 3 main political parties . It will impossible for india to seriously catch up with china unless it streamlines this sector of indian society.
 

roma

NRI in Europe
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2009
Messages
3,582
Likes
2,538
Country flag
1962 shouldnot have happened. We were unprepared, underarmed and had no self confidence and esteem.
First mistake was troop deployment by Nehru knowing that we cannot match their firepower.
second was asking troops to hold firepower when attack begin .
Third was holding back IAF on pretext of saving whatever we can .
When we had no capability to fight why the hell troops were deployed and when fight starts there should be no looking back and trying to save anything. It should be do or die . We should have learned from chinese that casualty shouldn't matter when it comes to protecting national pride . Any ways we had huge casualty and what pisses me off that we had chance to inflict some damage to chinese but we didn't because we were ruled by cowards .
i'm replying to the post above and also that of Tsering's a little below yours ....the overall climate in china and india were very different . Prc already had valuable experience fighting the mighty usa in korea before taking india on in a climate of "bhai-bhai". needless to say prc was overprepared and india nowhere prepared. Subjects such as military doctrine and all militray calculations were done and rehearsed - in comparison india was unprepared , disorganised and unorchestrated. Today with all the ability to analyse we could talk freely tthat the IAF should have been used. Blaming nehru is "fashionable scape-goating" and frankly is not the entire story - more accurately the entire nation including much of the military establishment were deceived by prc shouts of friendship.

in the light of india's lack of preparedness i'd say nehru did the "right" thing to avoid further confrontation and rally "international opinion" against china to call for an end. It enalbled india a breathing space to get it's military organised for the first time in centuries...that they did to the extent that hardly 9 years later in the bangladesh episode when Henry Kissinger egged prc to get involved in aiding pakistan , the same prc military which had only a few years earler thrashed india relied on it's its better senses and realised that it had better not do so. ... the time span between those two wars clearly made a huge difference - nehru's reliquishing of barren territory in aksai chin was painful but in the log run it was the best decision anyone could have made given the circumstances of the dire lack of readiness of india in 1962
 
Last edited:

roma

NRI in Europe
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2009
Messages
3,582
Likes
2,538
Country flag
P2P,

Warfare is complex.

There is no single template for victory.

It depends on the Situation.
add that to the fact that today's warplanes are very different in capability to those in 1962 - so the factor of air force is a dynamic subject and changes in time and depende on the capability. Todays fighter bombers are less sensitive to their " strategic placement " as it was in 1962 given their immense range these days.

also another point - missiles ! nonexistent in the 1962 equation but readily available today - are missiles considered to be part of the airforce ? - then surely missiles make a huge differencve and they can be mounted on most fighters and who's to know the number that can be carried - will that also increase ?
 
Last edited:

no smoking

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
5,016
Likes
2,313
Country flag
Well, IAF didn't have the same level fire power as USA.
And PLA was not Germany, they were relying on their legs not tyres.

If you want to know how IAF would affect 1962, look at korea war.
 

Kunal Biswas

Member of the Year 2011
Ambassador
Joined
May 26, 2010
Messages
31,122
Likes
41,042
also another point - missiles ! nonexistent in the 1962 equation but readily available today - are missiles considered to be part of the airforce ? - then surely missiles make a huge differencve and they can be mounted on most fighters and who's to know the number that can be carried - will that also increase ?
@Roma,
Now Days, Aircrafts can carry Cruise underbelly just like they used to do during WW2, These Missiles are called Cruise Missiles having Ranges upto 2500kms, China have it, but only its bombers can carry it, These Missiles are degiend to hit factories, Gov buildings, Military Installations, India too have such missiles, like Brahmos underbelly of SU-30MKI, The Missile have range of 290kms, Now Days Cruise Missiles comes under Air-force too..

25t921i.jpg
Chinese H-6H Badgers, there is no shortage of launch platforms. The recently unveiled H-6H variant with four wing pylons is clearly intended for such a role. The Air lauched varient is call CJ-10A with a operational range is 2,200km with a speed of Mach 2.5+..
DSCN2331.JPG
Indian SU-30MKI armed With Brahmos Supersonic missile..
These Missiles will insure Aircraft`s safety as the Aircraft can launched these missile from their own Airspace, Rest of the Journey will be done by Missile itself....

For More Info, you can also see my analysis of both Air-force and tactic :
http://defenceforumindia.com/showthread.php?t=17393&page=1
 
Last edited:

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,132
Likes
23,835
India lost out owing to pu*ssyfooting.

In the 50s, China was preoccupied with the Korean War, which was important to her since it would bring a belligerent US at the border. India could have exerted her influence in Tibet. China would have been divided in intent and would not be able to exploit the Principle of War - Concentration of Effort.

Air could have been used then. Compare the types of aircraft India had and China had. Further, in those days the aircraft did not have long range as they have today. The Chinese would have to use the few airfields that they had. They being in the high altitude, they would not be able to lift a cost effective lethal payload.

However, CAS in the mountains would have been difficult since the FEBA would be difficult to discern, there being total confusion ensuing at these area.
 

Kunal Biswas

Member of the Year 2011
Ambassador
Joined
May 26, 2010
Messages
31,122
Likes
41,042
I
Air could have been used then. Compare the types of aircraft India had and China had. Further, in those days the aircraft did not have long range as they have today. The Chinese would have to use the few airfields that they had. They being in the high altitude, they would not be able to lift a cost effective lethal payload.

However, CAS in the mountains would have been difficult since the FEBA would be difficult to discern, there being total confusion ensuing at these area.

@Sir,
Canberra and Hunter in IAF service had an effective combat radius of 1,300 km and 750km respectively, It true that they were not like SU-30MKI we have today but same as Jaguar of IAF, Further adding to your post Sir, Main Airbases of PLAAF in TBA are less than 500kms, those days their were no Air-refulers therefore PLAAF Bombers had to take less payload from few airfields in TBA, their mission was to bomb military installation near LAC, beyond LAC, their will be no escorts for protection due to limited range of MIG-15/17/19 also poor engines in those altitudes..

Regarding FEBA, Its True Sir, but again IAF`s main objectives would have to cutoff narrow supply routes and Arty position for PLA support that was much clear over that terrain, further PLA movement are predictable as few passages are only way to pass through mountains, further its know that we were in retreat, IAF could have immobilize PLA movement during Day time as they march in hundreds or at-least blocked or erase the paths/routes to prevent further incursions..
 
Last edited:

p2prada

Senior Member
Joined
May 25, 2009
Messages
10,234
Likes
4,015
Hitting supply lines isn't easy. What's more difficult is supply lines have to be hit continuously.

IAF or as a matter of fact any air force needs Targets. Hitting oil installations, airbases, factories etc is what makes an air force lethal. Denying the enemy the use of its resources is vital. But which of these installations are present in the Himalayas that could be a credible threat.

Hitting airbases is useless considering PLA also never used it's air force. Maybe a few transports, but is it worth the effort in an economics POV where the risk of losing your plane is greater than you causing enough damage? That leaves out Factories and Oil installations which are non-existent in the immediate area.

IAF can hit bridges, but which destroyed bridge has been a showstopper for an army that is walking on foot? PLA won't be stopped if you kill a bridge.

Then comes the CAS in the Himalayas. Hitting artillery positions isn't easy on either sides. Both armies position themselves on the leeward side of the mountains which would require an aircraft turning around to look for targets. It's quite a task for aircraft like the Canberras and we aren't even talking about anti-aircraft capability of the PLA. If you want to use a $10Million aircraft killing a $50 Ak-47 then be my guest. But the IAF will not do it. They would rather shoot at $10Million aircraft or $10Million installations that don't exist. Killing a mule will not stop the PLA, or even killing a 100 mules.

That's why an IAF vs PLAAF will be a shooting match between each other while the IA and PLA fight out the real fight.

We used 55 tons of bombs in Kargil on 5000 men. That's effectively a 1Kg of explosives a man, IAF would probably have killed 50 or lesser through out the war.

NATO used 1000 aircraft with 38000 sorties to kill what, 500 Slavs in Kosovo? Air Force kills resources of a country not the weapons on the ground. The only service wing that can take and hold a ground is the Army.
 

JBH22

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2010
Messages
6,497
Likes
17,878
^Why are you obsessed with the combat aspect of airforce do you know that in a conflict 60% of duties of an airforce consists of bringing supplies,airlifting troops and machinery etc.
USA paradigm is not certainly the one to follow they are a war monger nation that likes to fight but with minimal casualties hence there answer is always air attacks.

We used 55 tons of bombs in Kargil on 5000 men. That's effectively a 1Kg of explosives a man, IAF would probably have killed 50 or lesser through out the war.
Do you rule out the psychological effect of being pounded day and night by IAF while they did not have air support.
 

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,132
Likes
23,835
Hitting supply lines isn't easy. What's more difficult is supply lines have to be hit continuously.

IAF or as a matter of fact any air force needs Targets. Hitting oil installations, airbases, factories etc is what makes an air force lethal. Denying the enemy the use of its resources is vital. But which of these installations are present in the Himalayas that could be a credible threat.

Hitting airbases is useless considering PLA also never used it's air force. Maybe a few transports, but is it worth the effort in an economics POV where the risk of losing your plane is greater than you causing enough damage? That leaves out Factories and Oil installations which are non-existent in the immediate area.

IAF can hit bridges, but which destroyed bridge has been a showstopper for an army that is walking on foot? PLA won't be stopped if you kill a bridge.

Then comes the CAS in the Himalayas. Hitting artillery positions isn't easy on either sides. Both armies position themselves on the leeward side of the mountains which would require an aircraft turning around to look for targets. It's quite a task for aircraft like the Canberras and we aren't even talking about anti-aircraft capability of the PLA. If you want to use a $10Million aircraft killing a $50 Ak-47 then be my guest. But the IAF will not do it. They would rather shoot at $10Million aircraft or $10Million installations that don't exist. Killing a mule will not stop the PLA, or even killing a 100 mules.

That's why an IAF vs PLAAF will be a shooting match between each other while the IA and PLA fight out the real fight.

We used 55 tons of bombs in Kargil on 5000 men. That's effectively a 1Kg of explosives a man, IAF would probably have killed 50 or lesser through out the war.

NATO used 1000 aircraft with 38000 sorties to kill what, 500 Slavs in Kosovo? Air Force kills resources of a country not the weapons on the ground. The only service wing that can take and hold a ground is the Army.
P2P,

You cannot statistically analyse a battle or a campaign.

There are too many imponderable that statistical models or raw statistics cannot take into account.
 

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top