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Genetic evidence suggests the origins of Indian caste populations

  1. #136
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    Re: Genetic evidence suggests the origins of Indian caste populations

    A bit more details specifically on the genetic ancestry of Kokanastha/Chitpavan Brahmins:

    Genome Biology | Full text | Molecular insight into the genesis of ranked caste populations of western India based upon polymorphisms across non-recombinant and recombinant regions in genome

    Chitpavan brahmin demonstrates younger maternal component and substantial paternal gene flow from West Asia, thus giving credence to their recent Irano-Scythian ancestry from Mediterranean or Turkey, which correlated well with European-looking features of this caste. This also explains their untraceable ethno-history before 1000 years, brahminization event and later amalgamation by Maratha."

    "... non-recombining uniparental contributions in Chitpavan-brahmin Mediterranean or East European type as shown by 20% (HV, U3) mtDNA lineages and highly frequent (R1a and L) Y-haplogroups. The admixture and PC analyses (Figure 3a, b) reflected genetic association of Chitpavan-brahmin with Iranian, Ashkenazi-Jews (Turkey), Greeks (East Europe) and to some extent with Central Asian Turkish populations elucidating their distinct Nordic, “Scytho-Iranian” ancestry.

    The Caucasian link of Chitpavan-brahmin has also been inferred from biparental microsatellites variations (Figure 3c). The observed genomic analyses asserted the ethnographical fact that Chitpavan-brahmin share ancestry with conspicuously European-looking Pagan or Alpine group, who under religious pressure had migrated from Anatolian Turkey or East Europe to Gujarat coast probably via sea-vessel. Besides, their documented history is untraceable beyond 1000 years, further indicating that they were not part of the original Vedic migrations (early Indo-European) on the west coast. Therefore, the present genome analyses provide conclusive evidence of their recent migration, genesis, and expansion after they migrated from “Sopara” (India’s western trade zone) to geographically isolated Konkan-region, where they adopted “Konkani” language, and cultivated cash crop. Their considerable genetic affinity with Maratha caste further corroborated the prevalent norm that few of the dynamic and intelligent Chitpavans were “Brahmanized” for performing religious rituals in King Shivaji’s court (elite Maratha group) and some members were given the title of “Peshwa” or Minister for managing the administration of Maratha kingdom, which was extended farther north after King’s death under their rule. We observed 15% similar HVS -1 sequence motif (M4 lineage) between Chitpavan-brahmin and Bene-Israeli (or Indian Jews), probably suggesting similar indigenous Paleolithic contribution. Compared to Desasth-brahmin, Kokanasth-brahmin showed lowest biparental diversity, younger age of population based upon Tau value, larger genetic affinity with West Asians plus East Europeans suggesting their recent descent, in absence of bottleneck effect.



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  2. #137
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    Re: Genetic evidence suggests the origins of Indian caste populations

    Interesting conclusion from the above study:

    Conclusions

    Our comprehensive genomic analyses showed divergent paternal and maternal ancestry of studied four castes correlating well with their varied migration and exchequer demographic histories. The distribution and admixture of Western-Eurasian-specific mtDNA and Y-chromosomal haplogroups lend support to the diverse genesis of western ranked castes. The asymmetrical Proto-Asian component and Western-Eurasian admixture in two brahmin castes explained the “Scytho-Dravidian” origin of elite, ancient Desasth-brahmin and much recent “Irano-Scythian” ancestry (West Asia, East Europe) of Chitpavan-brahmin. Maratha and Dhangar have significant Pleistocene gene pool corroborating their “Proto-Asian” origin.

    Maratha warrior caste has experienced gene flow from Anatolian agriculturist (J2) supporting the conglomeration of migrant agricultural communities. The recombining STR loci did not reveal significant difference in population structure attributing to hypergamy between Brahmins and Maratha, and shared ancestry of Dhangar and Maratha. This study interestingly surmises the synchronization of caste stratification with West-Eurasians admixture in “Gangetic” plains, which spread in western territory due to demographic and economic reasons.
    This study seems to conclusively demonstrate that the upper caste Brahmins have a higher proportion of genetic material derived from Central Asia and Europe, while the lower castes have more "indigenous" genes.

    The Chitpavan/Kokanastha Brahmins are merely an exception in that they are the most recent arrivals to the subcontinent, and hence have retained their distinct physical features up to the modern times (although due to intermarriage with other Brahmins, this might no longer be the case in a few more generations).

    Any comments from experts here? @civfanatic
    Last edited by Known_Unknown; 20-05-13 at 04:05 AM.
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    Re: Genetic evidence suggests the origins of Indian caste populations

    Quote Originally Posted by LalTopi View Post
    This study is more than 12 years old. Why bring it up now?
    Basically, the old narrative goes like this, Aryans came from Out of India, settled here and brought all things lovely, Dravidians were the SDRIs who were the original inhabitants.
    The Indian narrative says Aryans didn't come from out of India, but were indigenous folks and Indians were resistant to intermix with foreigners (mlechchas)

    This and other studies well point out different things.

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    Re: Genetic evidence suggests the origins of Indian caste populations

    Quote Originally Posted by Known_Unknown View Post
    Interesting conclusion from the above study:



    This study seems to conclusively demonstrate that the upper caste Brahmins have a higher proportion of genetic material derived from Central Asia and Europe, while the lower castes have more "indigenous" genes.

    The Chitpavan/Kokanastha Brahmins are merely an exception in that they are the most recent arrivals to the subcontinent, and hence have retained their distinct physical features up to the modern times (although due to intermarriage with other Brahmins, this might no longer be the case in a few more generations).

    Any comments from experts here? @civfanatic
    There is nothing new in all this.

    Chitapavan brahmins show genetic affinity with west asians just as sikhs show the same with iranians.


    it is a rule of thumb that the more north western you are, the higher would be the connection with west asians.

    However, this connection dates to 4-5000 years ago.

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    Re: Genetic evidence suggests the origins of Indian caste populations

    The Indian narrative says Aryans didn't come from out of India, but were indigenous folks and Indians were resistant to intermix with foreigners (mlechchas)
    The indians were resistant to intermixing with foreigners but in post buddha era that is post 400 bc.

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    Re: Genetic evidence suggests the origins of Indian caste populations

    Quote Originally Posted by parijataka View Post
    @Singh - 500 years ago in Goa Brahmins were converted to Christianity by throwing beef into their wells, this was the only way Brahmins and Portuguese blood could inter mingle I.e. by Brahmins becoming Christians.
    I understand your anguish at your Brahmin relatives being tortured by Portuguese. It was Brutal. My sympathies. It was obviously not my attempt to rile you up, or degrade your caste members.

    ==
    It is obvious you have no idea about Hindu society,
    I cannot claim to know everything about "Hindu Society". Neither, have I made that claim.

    We have narratives and then we have evidence. I cannot ignore the latter, when it contradicts the former.

    To me evidence of a Portuguese conquest is a "plausible" explanation of why some people in that region look European. However, if it makes you uncomfortable, let me put in a more delicate wording so as to not your sensibilities..

    "The foreign features of some people of Western India, is most likely due to foreign intermixing."

    Why did that occur ?

    ---

    also Mr Mitra who is a deracinated Bengali communist and IamAnIdiot who is a Brahmin hater. G'night.
    I think you are more mature than this.

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    Re: Genetic evidence suggests the origins of Indian caste populations

    @parijataka @Das ka das @MAYURA @Known_Unknown

    I think this study by @Known_Unknown has perhaps quashed my hypothesis on how they got foreign features; it is because they are foreigners.
    @MAYURA may be onto something, when he says that they are Afghans.
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    Re: Genetic evidence suggests the origins of Indian caste populations

    I think you are more mature than this.[/QUOTE]


    I understand your anguish at your Brahmin relatives being tortured by Portuguese. It was Brutal. My sympathies. It was obviously not my attempt to rile you up, or degrade your caste members.
    It was not just brahmins ( infact brahmins were only one section tortured the people feeling the brunt of atrocities were the so called lower castes) as obvious to anyone who has read something.


    I cannot claim to know everything about "Hindu Society". Neither, have I made that claim.

    We have narratives and then we have evidence. I cannot ignore the latter, when it contradicts the former.

    To me evidence of a Portuguese conquest is a "plausible" explanation of why some people in that region look European. However, if it makes you uncomfortable, let me put in a more delicate wording so as to not your sensibilities..

    "The foreign features of some people of Western India, is most likely due to foreign intermixing."

    Why did that occur ?


    Do the chitapavan brahmins look more european than kashmiri pandits?

    when was kashmir genetically affected by europeans?


    in guise of evidence, you have been writing nonsense which is worse than anything i have come across.


    BTW, what is the number of chitapavan brahmins actually?


    The portuguese come, leave tens of thousands of bastards and these bastards are recognized as brahmins immediately. this is your narrative.


    500 years before your beloved portuguese, Al Beruni had noted that if someone visits foreign lands ( he was talking about khyber region hindus), he had to undergo penance and you are calling the chitapavan brahmins as descendants of portuguese.


    this is defense forum and so i can understand that you have no idea of history and society as you use modern glasses to look at events.

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    Re: Genetic evidence suggests the origins of Indian caste populations

    Quote Originally Posted by MAYURA View Post
    @ singh
    Please don't leave any space ie use @Singh instead of @ Singh
    Otherwise, I wont be notified.

    You are constantly harping on invasions and invasions like a mantra.


    take the case of khyber pakhtunkhwa region

    it was invaded by achaemenids, alexander, indo greeks, parthians, shakas, kushanas, hunas, and sasanians from 500 bc to 600 ad.

    yet in 1000 ad, it was a hindu region with people worshipping cows and ganesha and shiva, speaking ancestral language of punjabi, following caste system and what not element of indian civilization.

    the arab authors tell us that this was region where cows were not killed or eaten.

    if the so many invasions could not change the native culture ( it is always easier to impact culture than genes as shown by british and europeans and turks of oghuz stock in modern dau turkey) , how come we call dominant sections of hindu society as invaders?

    how come achaemenids, sasanians , kushanas, hunas and rest could not impact languages and religion of that area if the people are descendants of these invaders?

    are you suggesting that people of that region are kushana and other central asiatic invaders' descendants but adopted language and religion of people far away from the region?

    is all this not ridiculous?

    people are invaders and their descendants but their culture is native.
    Infact I made a similar point, a few years back.
    If Aryans came from outside, then where is a similar Aryan Culture ? Indian culture is distinct and unique.

    My point, however, is this that the British Narrative of Aryan Invasion, is unfounded.
    However, our Indian narrative that says well Indians are indigenous is also unfounded.
    We need to develop an ameliorative narrative keeping in mind new scientific evidence.

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    Re: Genetic evidence suggests the origins of Indian caste populations

    Quote Originally Posted by Singh View Post
    @parijataka @Das ka das @MAYURA @Known_Unknown

    I think this study by @Known_Unknown has perhaps quashed my hypothesis on how they got foreign features; it is because they are foreigners.
    @MAYURA may be onto something, when he says that they are Afghans.
    I am not saying that they are afghans as afghan is not a geographical term but denotes ethnicity and language ( language is the basis of identity, culture and even genetic links in most of cases ) as afghan are iranian people.


    what i am saying is that brahmins of bahlika and nagarhara region migrated to india and took shelter in chalukyan court of 11th century and because they had come from extreme north west india, it is reasonable that they would look more caucasoid.


    a west bengali is more caucasoid than an east bengali, a bihari more than west bengali, a west UPian more than bihari, a punjabi more than UPian, a pakhtun more than punjabi , a chechen more than a pakhtun and a russian more than a chechen.

    what does it suggest? simply that indian extreme north west region is frontier of alpine type people.



    Panini was very fair skinned because he was from mountainous region of swat.

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    Re: Genetic evidence suggests the origins of Indian caste populations

    Quote Originally Posted by Singh View Post
    Please don't leave any space ie use @Singh instead of @ Singh
    Otherwise, I wont be notified.



    Infact I made a similar point, a few years back.
    If Aryans came from outside, then where is a similar Aryan Culture ? Indian culture is distinct and unique.

    My point, however, is this that the British Narrative of Aryan Invasion, is unfounded.
    However, our Indian narrative that says well Indians are indigenous is also unfounded.
    We need to develop an ameliorative narrative keeping in mind new scientific evidence.

    My point was not on AMT but to show that after all invasions, no region on earth has preserved its pre christian era langauge and religion.

    the reason was

    1. strength of society

    2. demographic sea in which few thousand greeks sunk without a notice.




    we have reasonable estimate of population of gandhara region and it is clear that the invaders were few.

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    Re: Genetic evidence suggests the origins of Indian caste populations

    Quote Originally Posted by MAYURA View Post
    It was not just brahmins ( infact brahmins were only one section tortured the people feeling the brunt of atrocities were the so called lower castes) as obvious to anyone who has read something.


    Do the chitapavan brahmins look more european than kashmiri pandits?

    when was kashmir genetically affected by europeans?



    in guise of evidence, you have been writing nonsense which is worse than anything i have come across.



    BTW, what is the number of chitapavan brahmins actually?


    The portuguese come, leave tens of thousands of bastards and these bastards are recognized as brahmins immediately. this is your narrative.


    500 years before your beloved portuguese, Al Beruni had noted that if someone visits foreign lands ( he was talking about khyber region hindus), he had to undergo penance and you are calling the chitapavan brahmins as descendants of portuguese.


    this is defense forum and so i can understand that you have no idea of history and society as you use modern glasses to look at events.

    I understand that it was not only Brahmins who were tortured. But when we are talking only about the particular community called the KoBras, the discussion was obviously relegated to Brahmins.

    If from this @parijataka infers that I am clueless about Hindu Society, and you infer that I have no understanding of the subject, then I guess from your PoVs you are both justified.

    In any case, my hypothesis has been well proven quite a bit wrong. The research shows that these foreign looking individuals are indeed foreign. Please look at preceding posts.

    ==

    However, to ask you a few questions and of @parijataka

    Research shows their foreign ancestry, lack of historical records and recent migrations.

    How come then were they accepted into the Brahmin fold ? How come there was intermarriage ? Why were they not treated like the Mlechchas ?

  13. 20-05-13, 10:12 AM

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    Re: Genetic evidence suggests the origins of Indian caste populations

    @Singh who asked that

    However, to ask you a few questions and of @parijataka

    Research shows their foreign ancestry, lack of historical records and recent migrations.

    How come then were they accepted into the Brahmin fold ? How come there was intermarriage ? Why were they not treated like the Mlechchas ?
    Research does show them as alpine type but this is because our areas in west pakistan had some communities like that.

    they were not accepted into brahmin fold as they were brahmins of gandhara as per an indologist who is unavailable due to illness.

    once he is fine, i will contact him and try to prove the migration of nagarhara brahmins to maharshtra.


    please note that brahmins of gandhara region were not considered high grade as seen in Kalhana's rajatarangini.

    what happened was that brahmins of gandhara migrated and were looked down upon by rest of brahmins thus making them secluded and which in turn allowed them to have " nordic" features.

    but since they were brahmins, there was no problem in calling them such.


    Bhavabhuti, the great sanskrit dramatist, also called bengali brahmins as lowly because of their meat eating so it was norm for brahmins from UP and Vidarbha to look down upon other brahmins.
    Last edited by MAYURA; 20-05-13 at 10:23 AM.

  15. 20-05-13, 10:18 AM

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    Re: Genetic evidence suggests the origins of Indian caste populations

    Quote Originally Posted by pmaitra View Post
    @Virendra,
    What I could see is that the directionality of a haplogroup is shown by the diversity of that particular haplogroup. In other words, the source will have more people with that haplogroup, and the target less, and the source will show more diversity within the haplogroup (refer to the dark green colour in the figure).
    Yes and have you seen the k5 light green component as well. There are no dips or spikes in its diversity across the geographic spectrum.
    Which means, the migration/spread out event for this component took place more than at least 12,500.
    With k5 the light green and k6 the dark green (discussed already), we cover almost the entire pool of South Asia.

    Quote Originally Posted by pmaitra View Post
    Now, if we take the entire population, we will see many haplogroups, and you will see that there is some prevalence of haplogroups from different regions outside India (bright blue for example), and that also indicates presence of foreign genes, and going by the size in the foreign regions and India, we have indication that peple did come from regions that lie outside of South Asia.
    Yes a very minor presence. Have you compared these components against the green ones? Here's what the paper says:
    Both k5 and k6 ancestry components that dominate genetic variation in South Asia at K = 8 demonstrate much greater haplotype diversity than those that predominate in West Eurasia. (talking about blue ones)
    What does it mean?
    Simply put - Green ones are older than blue ones and that the green ones have been having long term local genetic evolution in South Asia before blues.
    This pattern is indicative of a more ancient demographic history and/or a higher long-term effective population size underlying South Asian genome variation compared to that of West Eurasia
    Another thing about the blue components (from the paper):
    ....we see that only the k4 dark blue component is present in India and northern Pakistani populations, whereas, in contrast, the k3 light blue component dominates in southern Pakistan and Iran. (which is rather odd to happen in geographically adjacent places. Read the next line)
    This patterning suggests additional complexity of gene flow between geographically adjacent populations because it would be difficult to explain the western ancestry component in Indian populations by simple and recent admixture from the Middle East.
    Lastly, while the blues ones only appear in scant way at South Asia. The green ones (dominant in South Asia) are found with reasonably strong frequency even in the regions of blue components. That is - Caucasus, Central Asia Middle East and Europe.
    And we know when the light green spread right? More than 12,500 years ago.

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    Re: Genetic evidence suggests the origins of Indian caste populations

    @Singh South India and Western India had a long history of trade & Commerce with various civilizations so sowing of wild oats was common in the heat of things
    Iam dumb!!!!!

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