A-50E/I Phalcon vs Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C.

[sayareakd]

I was looking at Indian and Pakistani AWAC pic then decided to make this thread

first Pakistani Awac

from wiki

Type Multi-mode active electronically scanned array (AESA) pulse doppler radar
Frequency S-band
Range 450 km
Altitude > 20 km (> 65,000 ft)
Azimuth 150° to each side

Saab has following

General characteristics
Crew: 2
Capacity: 50–58 passengers
Payload: 5,900 kg (13,010 lb)
Length: 27.28 m (89 ft 6 in)
Wingspan: 24.76 m (81 ft 3 in)
Height: 7.73 m[4] (25 ft 4 in)
Wing area: 55.7 m² (600 sq ft)
Airfoil: NASA MS(1)013
Aspect ratio: 11:0
Empty weight: 13,800 kg (30,424 lb)
Max. takeoff weight: 22,800 kg (50,265 lb)
Powerplant: 2 × Allison AE 2100A turboprop, 3,096 kW (4,152 shp) each
Propellers: six blade constant speed Dowty propellers propeller, 1 per engine
Performance
Cruise speed: 665 km/h (370 knots, 424 mph)
Service ceiling: 9,450 m (31,000 ft)
Rate of climb: 11.4 m/s (2,250 ft/min)

 

[sayareakd]

A-50E/I Phalcon

IAF has got custom made IL 76 with Phalcon radar from Israel.

from wiki about IL 76

General characteristics
Crew: 5
Capacity: 50,000 kg (Il-76)[nb 1]
Payload: 50 tonnes ()
Length: 46.59 m (152 ft 10 in)
Wingspan: 50.5 m (165 ft 8 in)
Height: 14.76 m (48 ft 5 in)
Wing area: 300.0 m² (3,229.2 ft²)
Empty weight: 92,500 kg (Il-76TD-90)[nb 2] (203,962 lb)
Max. takeoff weight: 195,000 kg (Il-76)[nb 3] (429,975 lb (Il-76TD-90))
Powerplant: 4 × Aviadvigatel PS-90-76 turbofans, 171 kN (38,367 lbf) each
Performance
Maximum speed: 900 km/h (490 kt, 560 mph,) Mach 0.82 depending on altitude
Range: 4,300 km (Il-76)[nb 4] () with 50 tonne max payload
Service ceiling: 13,000 m (42,700 ft)
Rate of climb: m/s (ft/min)
Wing loading: 566.7 kg/m² (Il-76M/T)[nb 5] (116.05 lb/ft² (Il-76M/T), 129.72 lb/ft² (Il-76MD/TD))
Thrust/weight: (Il-76)[nb 6]
minimal landing run: 450 m with thrust reversal

Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI) developed its Phalcon system for Israeli defence forces and for export. Airborne Early Warning, Command and Control (AEWC&C) systems play a major role on the modern battlefield by providing real-time intelligence and command and control needed to achieve and maintain air superiority over the combat area and to enable surveillance of borders in peacetime. The world's most advanced AEWC&C system, the PHALCON, was developed and produced by ELTA using Active Phased Array Electronic Scanning Technology rather than a mechanically rotating antenna (rotodome) used by current AWACS systems, giving PHALCON greater operational flexibility and performance by several orders of magnitude. The Phalcon AEW&C aircraft is based on four sensors: phased-array radar, phased-array IFF, ESM/ELINT and CSM/COMINT. A unique fusion technology continuously cross-relates the data gathered by all sensors. When one of the sensors reports a detection, the system automatically initiates an active search of the complementary sensors.
The AWE&C phased array radar replaces the conventional rotodome radar. It is mounted either on the aircraft fuselage or on top of the aircraft inside a stationary dome, providing full 360� coverage. This electronically steered beam radar delivers a tremendous advantage over mechanical rotating antenna, as it supports the tracking a high maneuvering targets. The radar can detect even low flying objects from distances of hundreds of kilometers, day and night, under all weather conditions. Verification beams sent at specific, individual, newly detected targets eliminate false alarms. Moreover, track initiation is achieved in 2 to 4 seconds as compared to 20 to 40 seconds with a rotodome radar
The IFF system employs solid state phased array technology to perform interrogation, decoding, target detection and tracking. A monopulse technique is used to implement azimuth measurement. The IFF data is automatically correlated with the phased array radar.
The ESM/ELINT system receives, analyzes and locates radar signals, covering 360o. It combines high sensitivity with high probability of intercept, and achieves excellent accuracy in bearing measurement. The system uses narrow-band super-heterodyne receivers and wide-band instantaneous frequency measurement (IFM) techniques to provide very high accuracy and probability of intercept of airborne and surface emitters. Very high bearing accuracy for all received signals is achieved through Differential Time of Arrival (DTOA) measurements. The system also collects and analyzes ELINT data.
The PHALCON's CSM/COMINT receives in UHF, VHF and HF, rapidly searching for airborne, shipborne or ground communications signals of interest. Selected radio nets can be monitored for signal activity. A DF capability locates targets. Detected signals can be assigned to monitoring receivers instantaneously. The system makes extensive use of computers to reduce the load on operators.
The aircraft communicates, via its data link, with Air Defense HQ. Data from additional air defense sensors are fused to create a complete spatial picture.

IAI Phalcon 707

 

[sayareakd]

so you see that IL 76 has almost 10 times the capacity to lift then Saab. Now imagine what electronics and sensors are inside IL 76 to fry enemy AWACs electronics

 

[Virendra]

Great post. Not just the payload capacity but there is a stark contrast in other features as well. It is though obviously expected from us to better them, given the stakes and needs of the larger player in an equation.

Regards,
Virendra

 

[sayareakd]

if PAF wants to fly its AWAC safely then it has to take this route and it has blind spots.

Blue is the flight path and red is the tracking zone.

yes Pakistani AWAC can always run into Afghanistan, Iran or China to save itself from IAF.

China is best bet for them but IAF base is in Kashmir.

 

[trackwhack]

Saya, no point with the comparison.

Phalcon ELM 2090 is the best AWACS radar in the world bar none. Not the US or UK or France or anyone else has anything close in terms of capability. Even the Israelis have only the 2085 actively deployed. Why are you even making an effort to compare this with plastic toys that the pukes have?

 

[sayareakd]

http://www.iai.co.il/sip_storage/FILES/5/37545.pdf

 

[Illusive]

Saya they have ZDK-03 too.

PS: I got my answer

they didnt have money that is why they went for Chines AWAC which was given free of cost, since no one was buying Chines AWAC.

 

[A chauhan]

Saya great posts ! :thumb:

What would be the usual payload of our Phalcon? Not max. payload.

Unfortunately I cant click like from mobile.

 

[p2prada]

The two aircraft are of different classes. So, no comparison.

Anyway, Phalcon has 11 work stations and 3 arrays. Erieye has 5 work stations and 2 arrays.

In truth, even though the Erieye is called an AEW&C, it does not have enough controllers to manage the battlespace like Phalcons can. Erieye, DRDO-CABS, Eitam etc are really AEWs. At least Eitam is advertised as an AEW.

Phlacon also has the ability to process ELINT and COMINT signals in real time. The others need to land and get it resolved. That's one reason why the number of controllers are more than double that of the smaller AEWs.

Even the Israelis have only the 2085 actively deployed.

The Israeli AEW (not AEW&C) which they call Eitam (Conformal AEW) is based on the Gulfstream G550 and has 5 workstations. Singapore has 4 Eitam as well. It is in the Erieye class.

Not the US or UK or France or anyone else has anything close in terms of capability.

US designed the Wedgetail based on the 737. Australia has 6, S Korea has 3 and Turkey has 4. It is in the same class as the Phalcon, but you can say the Phalcon is ahead.

I don't know what the Americans have planned but the only potential developments for the future in the "heavy" AEW&C category would be coming from India with the new project to be started and China with the KJ-2000 and it's future developments. But I guess both countries will have to look at better platform options like the IL-476, Boeing 737, A-330 or C-17.

The first flight of Il-476 military transport aircraft is scheduled for September 2012 - News - Russian Aviation - RUAVIATION.COM

 

[sayareakd]

Saya great posts ! :thumb:

What would be the usual payload of our Phalcon? Not max. payload.

Unfortunately I cant click like from mobile.

AC, IMHO payload of IL76 Capacity: 50,000 kg (Il-76), Payload: 50 tonnes which shall be fixed for the AWAC since it does not have to carry bomb or other equipment, crew is same, since station to man then are same.

 

[trackwhack]

The two aircraft are of different classes. So, no comparison.

Anyway, Phalcon has 11 work stations and 3 arrays. Erieye has 5 work stations and 2 arrays.

In truth, even though the Erieye is called an AEW&C, it does not have enough controllers to manage the battlespace like Phalcons can. Erieye, DRDO-CABS, Eitam etc are really AEWs. At least Eitam is advertised as an AEW.

Phlacon also has the ability to process ELINT and COMINT signals in real time. The others need to land and get it resolved. That's one reason why the number of controllers are more than double that of the smaller AEWs.



The Israeli AEW (not AEW&C) which they call Eitam (Conformal AEW) is based on the Gulfstream G550 and has 5 workstations. Singapore has 4 Eitam as well. It is in the Erieye class.

US designed the Wedgetail based on the 737. Australia has 6, S Korea has 3 and Turkey has 4. It is in the same class as the Phalcon, but you can say the Phalcon is ahead.

I don't know what the Americans have planned but the only potential developments for the future in the "heavy" AEW&C category would be coming from India with the new project to be started and China with the KJ-2000 and it's future developments. But I guess both countries will have to look at better platform options like the IL-476, Boeing 737, A-330 or C-17.

The first flight of Il-476 military transport aircraft is scheduled for September 2012 - News - Russian Aviation - RUAVIATION.COM

The G550 runs the 2085 which is the predecessor of the 2090. It is AEW&C as per freely available information.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The EL/W-2090

is a further development of EL/M-2075 and EL/W-2085.The EL/W-2090 uses the Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA), an active phased array radar. This radar consists of an array transmit/receive (T/R) modules that allow a beam to be electronically steered, making a physically rotating rotodome unnecessary. AESA radars operate on a pseudorandom set of frequencies and also have very short scanning rates, which makes them difficult to detect and jam.

The India Air Force agreed in 2004 to purchase three systems for $1.1 billion. Russia and Israel on 10 October 2004 signed a tripartite agreement to facilitate the equipping of the Indian Air Force (IAF) with the EL/W-2090 airborne warning and control systems. The IAF plans to mount the EL/W-2090 radar and surveillance systems from IAI on Il-76 aircraft supplied by Russia. India received its first AWACS on 25 May 2009.

DRDO to be build next Generation Phalcons AEW&C for IAF | idrw.org
An Indian Air Force EL/W-2090 Phalcon AEW&C radar system equipped Il-76. Three are currently in service, two more are on order, while a sixth may follow. Image courtesy of Michael Sender. - Image - Airforce Technology
EL/W-2090 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Airborne early warning and control: Definition from Answers.com
http://www.iai.co.il/sip_storage/FILES/5/37545.pdf


The Range Is Classified

 

[sayareakd]

most important part of our AWAC is that we will use it to track missile launches and to be part of BMD system. Range is classified, but i suspect it is more the 500 km in tracking mode.

 

[trackwhack]

most important part of our AWAC is that we will use it to track missile launches and to be part of BMD system. Range is classified, but i suspect it is more the 500 km in tracking mode.

The AWACS range will be no match for the Swordfish radar. As long as we have a few of those deployed at the borders, we wont need AWACS to detect missile launches. Ideally Satellites must be used for BM launch detection but that is still a decade away.


BTW, the correct comparison would be between the Chinese supplied ZDK-03 to the A-50E/I instead of the Erieye.


But that is pretty much crap too..

 

[sob]

AWACS is all about range, power and the endurance. In all the aspects Phalcon is way ahead.

From the defence daily "The limitation of the two sided array is that it can only cover two 120 degree sectors abeam of the aircraft, leaving 60 degree blind sectors over the nose and tail of the aircraft, and reduced antenna performance from 45 degrees off the beam aspect. Another limitation stems from the use of an airframe too small to accommodate a comprehensive self contained command, control and communications system, and other sensors such as a capable ESM and track association system."

 

[sayareakd]

The AWACS range will be no match for the Swordfish radar. As long as we have a few of those deployed at the borders, we wont need AWACS to detect missile launches. Ideally Satellites must be used for BM launch detection but that is still a decade away.


BTW, the correct comparison would be between the Chinese supplied ZDK-03 to the A-50E/I instead of the Erieye.


But that is pretty much crap too..

main advantage of AWAC is that a part from tracking BM they can also track cruise missiles. So they are necessary for our defence and offensive operations. More we got better it is and more home made better they are. BTW we are good at Radars, lets wait and see how our home grown mini AWAC would turn out to be.

 

[sob]

Any idea how the Pakistani's are going to integrate the Chinese systems with the European systems in SAAB.

 

[sayareakd]

Any idea how the Pakistani's are going to integrate the Chinese systems with the European systems in SAAB.

Google translator ???

last time in 1998 they took lot of time to translate that is why test took so much time, but how Pakistanis have net facility.

 

[trackwhack]

Any idea how the Pakistani's are going to integrate the Chinese systems with the European systems in SAAB.

Yes - they will paint both planes green.