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Tank Guns and Ammunition

  1. #16
    Defence Professionals Damian's Avatar
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    Poland

    re: Tank Guns: Photo & Dicussion thread..

    800px Merkava 1 Lesany 2
    Sorry Kunal, this is Merkava Mk1.

    merkava2

    This is Mk3, You can see the difference.


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    "Nothing is true, Everything is permitted" - Hasan ibn Sabbah.

    "I applied my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly. I perceived that this also was a chasing after wind. For in much wisdom is much grief and he that increased knowledge, increased sorrow" - Book of Ecclesiastes (Book of the Teacher).

  2. #17
    Member of the Year 2011 Kunal Biswas's Avatar
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    re: Tank Guns: Photo & Dicussion thread..

    120 mm Ukrainian KBM2 tank gun

    kbm2l

    The gun design meets NATO standards and can fire all types of 120 mm NATO ammunition. More over the gun design makes it possible to fire Ukraininan 120 mm guided missile.

    Calibre 120 mm
    Breech type semiautomatic with horizontal placement of the wedge
    Firing mechanism Electrical
    Ordnance length 6000 mm
    Ordnance mass 4,715 kilograms
    Barrel life ?
    Max Chamber Pressure 7,060 bars/ 706 MPa

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    yatagan
    T-84-120 yatagan

    t55agm23l
    T-55AGM

    t72120l
    T-72-120
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  3. #18
    Member of the Year 2011 Kunal Biswas's Avatar
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    re: Tank Guns: Photo & Dicussion thread..

    125mm Ukrainian KBM1M tan gun

    kbm1ml

    125 mm KBM1M tank gun is intended for installation in main battle tanks T-72, T-72AG, T-72MP, as well as in their modifications, These Gun originally originated from 2A46M..

    Calibre 125 mm
    Breech type semiautomatic with horizontal placement of the wedge
    Firing mechanism Electrical
    Ordnance length 6000 mm
    Ordnance mass 4,400 kilograms
    Barrel life ?
    Max Chamber Pressure 6500bars/ 650 MPa

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    p1101l
    T-72AG

    t72mp2l
    T-72MP

    And others..
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  4. #19
    Member of the Year 2011 Kunal Biswas's Avatar
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    re: Tank Guns: Photo & Dicussion thread..

    Cold War Era Rheinmetall 140mm Tank gun..

    140nw

    KWS III consisted of the adoption of a 140mm main gun. but the L-55 was found sufficient for the job and the 140mm project wasnt realized. (yet - as it may come in the future) 140mm gun with a 7 meter barrel..

    http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/Leo2...-gun.kruse.pdf


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    CfmpW
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  5. #20
    Member of the Year 2011 Kunal Biswas's Avatar
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    re: Tank Guns: Photo & Dicussion thread..

    Cold War Era French 140mm Tank gun..

    canonde140mm

    munitionde140mm

    Like Germans, French have there own prototype for 140mm tank cannon at prototype phase, But as Cold war was over it was felt that 120mm is sufficient for future..

    -------------------------------------------------------------

    leclerc140

    It was intended to mount such gun in leclerc..
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  6. #21
    Member of the Year 2011 Kunal Biswas's Avatar
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    re: Tank Guns: Photo & Dicussion thread..

    Cold War Era Russian 152mm M-69 "Taran" (Battering Ram) Gun

    Tank Guns and Ammunition

    This rifled gun was developed by the OKB-9 (now Spetstekhnika) design bureau in Sverdlovsk (now Ekaterinburg) in 1960 and was mounted on an experimental vehicle Ob'ekt 120 (chief designer G.S.Efimov). This gun stands out for its length and power and was originally envisioned as a maingun of a perspective heavy tank that never appeared.

    This is probably the largest dedicated antitank gun ever built.

    Calibre 152 mm Rifled
    Breech type ?
    Firing mechanism ?
    Ordnance length 9045 mm
    Ordnance mass ?
    Barrel life ?
    Max Chamber Pressure ?


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    Other Unknown Russian 152mm..

    Object 292

    Tank Guns and Ammunition

    The Object 292 test vehicle was produced by the Kirov Special Machinery Plant (Special Machinery, Limited), and the scientists at VNIITransmash. On the chassis of the T-80U they installed a new turret, a 152mm cannon, and some other parts. The turret and cannon were installed and in 1991, experiments began at Rzhev Poligon. Positive results were achieved.Ballistically, the smoothbore 152mm was far superior to the 125mm, though the chamber dimensions were not that much bigger. A new combat compartment was also developed, which could be installed on T-80 tanks without modifications to the main chassis structure.In September 1990 the tank was ready, and in 1991 on the Rzhev range have begun fire testing facility.All work was conducted under the leadership of chief designer, NS Popov. His deputy, twice winner of State Award, AK Dzyavgo, said: "We agreed with the Director of Central Research Institute of Nikolai Nikolaevich Hudkovsh on the implementation of ideas to develop a 152.4 mm in caliber.
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  7. #22
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    re: Tank Guns: Photo & Dicussion thread..

    1. Barrel life of Rh 120 L/44 is 1,500 EFC, same as L/55 and M256.
    2. Maximum chamber pressure of Rh 120 L/44 and M256 is 7,100 bar
    3.The barrel per se of the Rh 120 L/44 weighs less than the barrel of the M256 due to the use different materials... why does the Rh 120 then weigh more than M256? May I ask where you took the weight values from? Do they include the gun mantlet?
    4. Jane's reported that the L/55 gun can support 500 bar more chamber pressure
    5. IMI tank gun has 7,250 bar maximum chamber pressure
    6. Ukranian KBA3 tank gun has a maximum chamber pressure of 6,500 kgf/cm², which is only 6,374 bar
    7. Likewise the KBM1M tank gun has a maximum pressure of 7,200 kgf/cm², which is only 7,060 bar
    8. The image of the 140 mm armed tank in the Swiss museum shows a Pz 87 WE with a RUAG 140 mm tank gun, which does not fire NATO 140 mm rounds, but shorter ones designed for human loaders.

    Is the Indian tank gun really that bad? Worst barrel life, smallest pressure limit and only 48 calibers long?
    Last edited by methos; 21-07-12 at 08:42 PM.

  8. #23
    Member of the Year 2011 Kunal Biswas's Avatar
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    re: Tank Guns: Photo & Dicussion thread..

    Russian 2A83 152 mm Tank Gun

    HPX9b

    Nizhny Tagil New Main Battle Tank, This vehicle is intended to become the new Russian MBT and was planned to enter service in 1994, but due to lack of financing it is still on the testing grounds (according to some reports it has cleared the testing phase around March 1999).The gun will be a 152mm smoothbore tank gun/ATGM launcher. The development of this system started as far back as end of the fifties for the heavy tanks (originally a rifled gun, probably M-69). The project was revived in the eighties and the gun was significantly redesigned. Even with ordinary powders a very high initial velocity of an APFSDS projectile is achieved. Some reports claim 152mm smoothbore gun that is carried by an elusive N.Tagil MBT is derived from 152mm M-69 "Taran" .

    Calibre 152 mm Smoothbore
    Breech type ?
    Firing mechanism ?
    Ordnance length 9045 mm
    Ordnance mass ?
    Barrel life ?
    Max Chamber Pressure ?


    --------------------------------------------------------------

    117159 1 f

    117159 3 f

    Rendered T-95..
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  9. #24
    Member of the Year 2011 Kunal Biswas's Avatar
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    re: Tank Guns: Photo & Dicussion thread..

    Quote Originally Posted by methos View Post
    1. Barrel life of Rh 120 L/44 is 1,500 EFC, same as L/55 and M256.
    2. Maximum chamber pressure of Rh 120 L/44 and M256 is 7,100 bar
    3.The barrel per se of the Rh 120 L/44 weighs less than the barrel of the M256 due to the use different materials... why does the Rh 120 then weigh more than M256? May I ask where you took the weight values from? Do they include the gun mantlet?

    4. Jane's reported that the L/55 gun can support 500 bar more chamber pressure
    5. IMI tank gun has 7,250 bar maximum chamber pressure
    6. Ukranian KBA3 tank gun has a maximum chamber pressure of 6,500 kgf/cm², which is only 6,374 bar
    7. Likewise the KBM1M tank gun has a maximum pressure of 7,200 kgf/cm², which is only 7,060 bar
    8. The image of the 140 mm armed tank in the Swiss museum shows a Pz 87 WE with a RUAG 140 mm tank gun, which does not fire NATO 140 mm rounds, but shorter ones designed for human loaders.
    1.
    a.I have read L44 have worst barrel life with new gen rounds that is 260rnd, can you give me a link where it says L44 have 1500 efc,
    b.Besides the the gun is less thicker than L55 ( 130mm longer than L44 ) cannot have more than a 1000kg weight, hence it life is lower than L55..

    2.
    7100bars may be for M256 but need proof on L44 having same chamber pressure..

    3.
    Yes, the weight is not of the barrel but whole gun

    4.5.8
    Updated


    Regarding 6 & 7 names of the guns dont match.. ?
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  10. #25
    Member of the Year 2011 Kunal Biswas's Avatar
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    re: Tank Guns: Photo & Dicussion thread..

    Is the Indian tank gun really that bad? Worst barrel life, smallest pressure limit and only 48 calibers long?
    Chamber pressure

    I have given the data clearly says 8000bars at max..

    proof pressure / safe pressure 6120bars..

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Caliber


    Calibre bore length gdl

    If calculate in maths of 48 caliber is 576cm

    Arjun Gun barrel length is 605cm to be a little more than 50cal..

    How is 48caliber ?

    ----------------------------------------------

    Barrel Life:


    Coz its a Rifled not smooth-bore..


    ----------------------------------------------------


    Indian Gun is good with max chamber pressure of 8000bars, of 50+caliber and in Rifled gun catagory it have 500rnd barrel life..

    Not bad for a Rifled Gun from 80s..
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  11. #26
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    re: Tank Guns: Photo & Dicussion thread..

    1.
    a.I have read L44 have worst barrel life with new gen rounds that is 260rnd, can you give me a link where it says L44 have 1500 efc,
    b.Besides the the gun is less thicker than L55 ( 130mm longer than L44 ) cannot have more than a 1000kg weight, hence it life is lower than L55..
    Really? I recommend you to take a look into literature and not to come up with some dubious informations from self-published websites. If you want a link and not the title of a book: here.
    260 rounds is realistic, for 120 mm DM 53 the German round with the highest barrel wear. 120 mm DM 63 is in the area of 400 - 600 rounds per barrel and for non-KE rounds it is 1,500. You are aware that EFC is a way of measuring via index? M829 equals 3 EFC, M829A1 equals 4 EFC, DM 53 equals probably 6 EFC. I originally also did not know the difference between EFC and real ammunition, but I was told different by literature and people in the internet.
    On the 2A46M tank gun used on the T-72M1 (including Indians) barrel life was 600 - 800 EFC or 100 - 200 APFSDS.

    Regarding the weight difference between L/44 and L/55: If "the whole gun system" also includes the mantlet (which is thicker armoured on Leopard 2A6) then 600 kg of the 1,000 kg difference could be part of the thicker armour.

    2.
    7100bars may be for M256 but need proof on L44 having same chamber pressure..
    Really? Did you read any book about German tank guns and technology or the U.S. M256? According to Rolf Hilmes' "Kampfpanzer Entwicklungen der Nachkriegszeit" page 34 the Rheinmetall 120 mm gun has a maximum pressure of 7,100 bar. According to Steve J. Zaloga (M1 Abrams Main Battle Tank 1982 -1992) and R. P. Hunnicutt (Abrams A History of the American Main Battle Tank) the U.S. version of the Rh 120, the M256 does have the same performance; it is just simplified.

    Regarding 6 & 7 names of the guns dont match.. ?
    Just a few posts above:
    http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/l...tml#post539738
    http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/l...tml#post539751

    I have given the data clearly says 8000bars at max..
    [...]
    Indian Gun is good with max chamber pressure of 8000bars, of 50+caliber and in Rifled gun catagory it have 500rnd barrel life..
    Is that so? Then please provide your data. You wrote that "[t]he gun barrel has been partially autofrettaged to a pressure of 800 MPa to achieve a proof pressure of the order of 612 MPa" - this means that the gun has a maximum safe pressure of 6,120 bar, while it is autofregatted using a maximum pressure of 8,000 bar. It seems that you do not know how autofreggating is done, during autofregatting the barrel (and chamber) are under extremly pressure, which is higher than the maximum (safe) pressure of the later system. According to Rolf Hilmes (the book I mentioned above) the Rh 120 L/44 is autofregatted with a maximum pressure of 10,000 bar! Still the maximum (safe/operating) pressure of the gun afterwards is only 7,100 bar.

    If calculate in maths of 48 caliber is 576cm

    Arjun Gun barrel length is 605cm to be a little more than 50cal..

    How is 48caliber ?
    There are different definitions of "barrel length". Some countries meassure the whole bore (meaning barrel and the chamber), some do meassure only the barrel part. The Russian 125 mm gun is therefore between L/48 and L/52. I thought that I read somewhere that the Arjun has a L/48 gun, however I am not sure where. Will search for the source...
    Last edited by methos; 21-07-12 at 10:09 PM.

  12. #27
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    re: Tank Guns: Photo & Dicussion thread..

    Btw: 3BM-9 equals 4 EFC and 3BM-22 equals 5 EFC according to Stefan Kotsch's website.

  13. #28
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    re: Tank Guns: Photo & Dicussion thread..

    Swiss Compact Tank Gun:
    Compact 120 Tank Gun Brochure

  14. #29
    Member of the Year 2011 Kunal Biswas's Avatar
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    re: Tank Guns: Photo & Dicussion thread..

    Quote Originally Posted by methos View Post
    Really? I recommend you to take a look into literature and not to come up with some dubious informations from self-published websites. If you want a link and not the title of a book: here
    A forum link ?

    That is forum link and some member giving chamber pressure which copied and pasted here by you.. ? !

    260 rounds is realistic, for 120 mm DM 53 the German round with the highest barrel wear. 120 mm DM 63 is in the area of 400 - 600 rounds per barrel and for non-KE rounds it is 1,500.
    260 with advance rounds and 400-500rnds of other ammo ( No where mentioned its AP or other ) , there is no where written 1500rnds for L44 firing what ever round..

    but I was told different by literature and people in the internet.On the 2A46M tank gun used on the T-72M1 (including Indians) barrel life was 600 - 800 EFC or 100 - 200 APFSDS.
    Indian use 2a46M variant of its own for T-72M1, Pre one could fire 250rnds, the newer one can fire 600rnds for modern rounds..

    There is gov article was there on net, sadly corrupted..

    Regarding the weight difference between L/44 and L/55: If "the whole gun system" also includes the mantlet (which is thicker armoured on Leopard 2A6) then 600 kg of the 1,000 kg difference could be part of the thicker armour.
    It does not Includes the Mantel, The mantel is part of tank mainly not a welded part of the Gun..

    The whole gun weight is excluding the mantel The barrel and other parts such as chamber and breech are counted..

    Really? Did you read any book about German tank guns and technology or the U.S. M256? According to Rolf Hilmes' "Kampfpanzer Entwicklungen der Nachkriegszeit" page 34 the Rheinmetall 120 mm gun has a maximum pressure of 7,100 bar. According to Steve J. Zaloga (M1 Abrams Main Battle Tank 1982 -1992) and R. P. Hunnicutt (Abrams A History of the American Main Battle Tank) the U.S. version of the Rh 120, the M256 does have the same performance; it is just simplified.
    You have read the book:

    Explain me this, M256 was improve L44 ( I assume you agree ) Both gun are of different mass ( Exclude the Mantal ) M256 is heaver means stronger gun, Now how you explain this both have same 7100bars ?

    Have you gone what i told ?

    I said KBM2 , Not KBA3.. ?!


    Is that so? Then please provide your data. You wrote that "[t]he gun barrel has been partially autofrettaged to a pressure of 800 MPa to achieve a proof pressure of the order of 612 MPa" - this means that the gun has a maximum safe pressure of 6,120 bar,
    So what is denial here ?

    while it is autofregatted using a maximum pressure of 8,000 bar. It seems that you do not know how autofreggating is done, during autofregatting the barrel (and chamber) are under extremly pressure, which is higher than the maximum (safe) pressure of the later system. According to Rolf Hilmes (the book I mentioned above) the Rh 120 L/44 is autofregatted with a maximum pressure of 10,000 bar! Still the maximum (safe/operating) pressure of the gun afterwards is only 7,100 bar.
    Don't mix up Max Chamber pressure with imaginary 'MAX' safe pressure, DU rounds fired form M1A2 reach above 7100bars in M256..

    Scan the page from your book, I am not buying..



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  15. #30
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    re: Tank Guns: Photo & Dicussion thread..

    A forum link ?

    That is forum link and some member giving chamber pressure which copied and pasted here by you.. ? !

    [...]

    260 with advance rounds and 400-500rnds of other ammo ( No where mentioned its AP or other ) , there is no where written 1500rnds for L44 firing what ever round..
    He cites the TDV. That's best available source existing for German tanks. But you can also look at "Leopard 2 sein Werden und seine Leistung" by Paul-Werner Krapke. There the author mentions that barrel life is 550 rounds KE and that 1 KE round is equivalent to 3 non-KE rounds.

    I said KBM2 , Not KBA3.. ?!
    Ok, I confused the names. But what I said stays the same. KBM2 has a pressure of 7,200 kgf/cm², which is 7,060 bar and not 7,200 bar. I

    Explain me this, M256 was improve L44 ( I assume you agree ) Both gun are of different mass ( Exclude the Mantal ) M256 is heaver means stronger gun, Now how you explain this both have same 7100bars ?
    No! The weight is not equivalent to performance under pressure. The U.S. chose different materials which are cheaper, but offer same performance at more weight. As written by Zaloga costs were reduced. See "M1 Abrams Main Battle Tank 1982 -1992" page 10. The M256 was improved, but U.S. found that the gun was "overly complex and expensive" (Zaloga literally).

    Don't mix up Max Chamber pressure with imaginary 'MAX' safe pressure, DU rounds fired form M1A2 reach above 7100bars in M256..
    I don't mix anything up, you rather seem to. There are differences between the highest pressure used during production and the maximal supported chamber pressure in real firings (for example how fast the pressure grows to this level). Let's take a look at Jane's or the data from the manufacturer... not a single U.S. APFSDS exceeds 7,100 bar in the M256. M829A1 is having a chamber pressure of 5,600 bar according to Jane's, KEW-A2 (using the same propulsion unit as M829A2) has a pressure of 5,600 bar at 23° c.

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