Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

If Tanks have to evolve, which path they should follow?

  • Light Vehicles-Best for mobility

    Votes: 25 7.3%
  • Heavy Armour-Can take heavy punishment.

    Votes: 57 16.7%
  • Modular Design-Allowing dynamic adaptions.

    Votes: 198 58.1%
  • Universal Platform-Best for logistics.

    Votes: 61 17.9%

  • Total voters
    341

The Last Stand

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Damn dazzler you indeed are a party buster.

the documentary not only show the tanks within the pakistani terrain but also show the live firing and confirms the missing of target..

with this video.the claim of M1 being not tested in Pakistan or didnt failed should be an eye opener for the blind abram lover.
@Keshav Murali

watch this video.
I don't like the Abrams at all :facepalm:

But that doesn't mean I have to twist facts, does it?
 
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farhan_9909

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I don't like the Abrams at all :facepalm:

But that doesn't mean I have to twist facts, does it?
Not us but it is you who is hiding the face from the truth after being caught lying.

eff the documentary part about missing the target..but look at the video.look at the terrain and the missing of the target..

Tanks missing target is common.even i can post a video of Al khalid where it misses the target while moving.despite being having a very robust FCS with hunter killer ability.and ofcourse catherine fc thermal imagers.

Dazzler claim of abram being tested in pakistan and missing the target is proved..there are more other such claim as during the test the tank even faced engine related problem.now good would be if you accept the truth.if not than i am afraid you most probably are not a honest person than
 

bose

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Tanks missing target is common.even i can post a video of Al khalid where it misses the target while moving.despite being having a very robust FCS with hunter killer ability.and ofcourse catherine fc thermal imagers.
I am really getting confused here, I do not want to comment in this thread and leave it to tank gurus...

So I understand that AK is not a good tank as it also misses targets just like the American tank did as claimed by you...What is your point ??
 

farhan_9909

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I am really getting confused here, I do not want to comment in this thread and leave it to tank gurus...

So I understand that AK is not a good tank as it also misses targets just like the American tank did as claimed by you...What is your point ??
Abram is a Good tank.extremely Good.Ak is also not Bad.

tank missing target is common.it could be the fault of the gunner aswell.

Dazzler Said AK was tested within Pakistan and missed targets.

Damian and Kashav murali were hell bent on denying this.

Dazzler Posted a video as a proof with showing Abram in pakistan and missing target.

Case closed
 

bose

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Abram is a Good tank.extremely Good.Ak is also not Bad.

tank missing target is common.it could be the fault of the gunner aswell.

Dazzler Said AK was tested within Pakistan and missed targets.

Damian and Kashav murali were hell bent on denying this.

Dazzler Posted a video as a proof with showing Abram in pakistan and missing target.

Case closed
Is BBC documentary a good enough proof to argue ?? I do not know....
 

Damian

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I wonder when you see on this video that M1 misses the target. I do not see M1 firing, I see some gun firing and then some targets, but not M1 firing and missing.

And there is more. You and Dazzler seems to not have idea how tank gunnery on such range looks like. As well as authors of this story about missing targets.

So I explain again.

During such gunnery, tanks use inert training ammunition, which means there are no explosions when firing HE/HEAT/HESH, only visible thing is impact to the ground. Also only visible effect of firing training APDS and APFSDS is impact to the ground. This is because targets used in such gunnery are simple, made from paper or similiar material target shields with targets painted or printed on them. Even with binoculars it can be difficult to notice hit holes in them, especially if the range is above 1500m. So the tank can fire and do not miss the target, but people observing gunnery can confuse reality with their imagination about tank gunnery and claim that tank miss the target.

Now the bigger problem. I do not claim that M1 during these trails needed to hit all 10/10 targets. What I claim is, it could not miss all 10/10 targets. Fire control system is so precise and easy in use that this is just immposible. Unless we have incompetent crew in a tank.

Another factor is unreliability of sources claiming that tank missed it's targets, simply because they are made by people lacking knowledge.

And I doubt that Americans would send an incompetent crew that would not do a proper gun-sights zeroing and would be not capable to properly use fire control system.

The same is story with tank breaking down, who make such claims without any proof? M1 before being inducted in to service, needed to pass difficult reliability tests both in arctic and desert conditions. It's gas turbine air filters are considered as one of the best engine air filters up to this day. And I did not readed about any significant reliability problems of that engine in desert conditions.

If such things would happend then I have only 3 explanations, US goverment changed it mind and didn't wanted to sold the tank in the end, but to not disrupt difficult relationship with Pakistan, they just instructed crew to ---- up, or it was a sabotage, or crew was just untrained and incompetent, tank was not well maintained after transportation etc.

But overall it could not be a failure of design, and I must say, no other modern tank could failure such simple trails on it's own.
 
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Dazzler

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I wonder when you see on this video that M1 misses the target. I do not see M1 firing, I see some gun firing and then some targets, but not M1 firing and missing.

And there is more. You and Dazzler seems to not have idea how tank gunnery on such range looks like. As well as authors of this story about missing targets.

So I explain again.

During such gunnery, tanks use inert training ammunition, which means there are no explosions when firing HE/HEAT/HESH, only visible thing is impact to the ground. Also only visible effect of firing training APDS and APFSDS is impact to the ground. This is because targets used in such gunnery are simple, made from paper or similiar material target shields with targets painted or printed on them. Even with binoculars it can be difficult to notice hit holes in them, especially if the range is above 1500m. So the tank can fire and do not miss the target, but people observing gunnery can confuse reality with their imagination about tank gunnery and claim that tank miss the target.

Now the bigger problem. I do not claim that M1 during these trails needed to hit all 10/10 targets. What I claim is, it could not miss all 10/10 targets. Fire control system is so precise and easy in use that this is just immposible. Unless we have incompetent crew in a tank.

Another factor is unreliability of sources claiming that tank missed it's targets, simply because they are made by people lacking knowledge.

And I doubt that Americans would send an incompetent crew that would not do a proper gun-sights zeroing and would be not capable to properly use fire control system.

The same is story with tank breaking down, who make such claims without any proof? M1 before being inducted in to service, needed to pass difficult reliability tests both in arctic and desert conditions. It's gas turbine air filters are considered as one of the best engine air filters up to this day. And I did not readed about any significant reliability problems of that engine in desert conditions.

If such things would happend then I have only 3 explanations, US goverment changed it mind and didn't wanted to sold the tank in the end, but to not disrupt difficult relationship with Pakistan, they just instructed crew to ---- up, or it was a sabotage, or crew was just untrained and incompetent, tank was not well maintained after transportation etc.

But overall it could not be a failure of design, and I must say, no other modern tank could failure such simple trails on it's own.
Regarding tank trials, i have seen AK, Al Zarrar and T-85IIAP trials plus the ammunition used which is dummy rounds offcourse since the purpose is only to verify the accuracy and reliability of FCS, GCS, engine, transmission and other subsystems of the vehicle.

I agree with the rest of your post.
 

Damian

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Regarding tank trials, i have seen AK, Al Zarrar and T-85IIAP trials plus the ammunition used which is dummy rounds offcourse since the purpose is only to verify the accuracy and reliability of FCS, GCS, engine, transmission and other subsystems of the vehicle.
Technically speaking, dummy rounds are also something completely different than training ammunition.

Training ammunition have real propelant charge, can be fired from the gun, and despite having inert warheads or minimal penetration capabilities, training ammunition is still lethal (for example a training HEAT round which is just a steel block with a steel spike imitating fuze spike, still can do a large hole in lightly armored APC).

Dummy ammunition is completely indert mockup of real ammunition. Mostly used for initial training for crews how to handle such ammo, load it in to vehicle or in to main gun etc.
 

Damian

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I have actually a lot of his books, some about more modern equipment have some mistakes and wrong informations, tough the newer ones are definetely improved in quality.

Which does not mean I actually agree with some of Zaloga's conclusions.
 

The Last Stand

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You dont know the facts, anyway,

@Damian can tell you the background of Steve Zaloga, its an interesting read overall, see page 12, 4th para.



M1 Abrams Main Battle Tank 1982-92 - Steven J. Zaloga - Google Books
I've heard enough of Zaloga to give me a head-ache.

But the book explicitly mentions "disagreements".

@farhan_9909, I never said that the tank would not have been tested. I only said that 10/10 targets being missed is a technical, practical and physical impossibility.
 
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Sovngard

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A few times ago, I had a discussion with a Leclerc SXXI tank commander.

He told me that the Emiratis have trialed their Tropicalized Leclerc by shooting 120mm sabot round on it (frontal part).

The result is that there was no perforation although the poor monkeys placed inside were stunned and bleeding from their ears...:shocked:

Another good friend who is an AMX-10RC gunner told me the same story (this rumor circulated for a while in the Armoured Cavalry Branch) but in addition he mentionned that the round used was the OFL 120 F2 (an OFL 120 F1 with a DU penetrator (with slightly slower velocity than the F1)).

Unfortunately, no information about the target range...


From their perspective, the OFL 120 F1 (fired from the CN120-26 52-calibers gun) has the penetrating capability of the German DM43 (same dart) but at 3000 meters instead of 2000, thanks to the CN120-26's barrel lenght.
And the OFL 120 F2 would be similar to the M829A1 in term of penetrating capability but listed to 4500 meters instead 2000... :rolleyes:



What do you think about this ?
 

Damian

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@farhan_9909, I never said that the tank would not have been tested. I only said that 10/10 targets being missed is a technical, practical and physical impossibility.
Unless made on purpose. Actually if sights and gun are properly zeroed and person tat is gunner is trained good enough, it is rather difficult to miss.

It is in fact actually more about gunner skill than machine, machine just follows human commands in such case.

A few times ago, I had a discussion with a Leclerc SXXI tank commander.

He told me that the Emiratis have trialed their Tropicalized Leclerc by shooting 120mm sabot round on it (frontal part).

The result is that there was no perforation although the poor monkeys placed inside were stunned and bleeding from their ears...

Another good friend who is an AMX-10RC gunner told me the same story (this rumor circulated for a while in the Armoured Cavalry Branch) but in addition he mentionned that the round used was the OFL 120 F2 (an OFL 120 F1 with a DU penetrator (with slightly slower velocity than the F1)).

Unfortunately, no information about the target range...
Such test results can be possible. However it is strange that monkeys would be stunned. Composite armor should absorb projectile energy. Perhaps monkeys are just more delicate than humans in this regard, and obviously monkeys do not wear protective helmet that gives some protection for years and brain against concussion shock.

From their perspective, the OFL 120 F1 (fired from the CN120-26 52-calibers gun) has the penetrating capability of the German DM43 (same dart) but at 3000 meters instead of 2000, thanks to the CN120-26's barrel lenght.
And the OFL 120 F2 would be similar to the M829A1 in term of penetrating capability but listed to 4500 meters instead 2000...

What do you think about this ?
I think some things here are exaggarated. Obviously I agree that OFL120F2 could have similiar performance to M829A1 but at 4500m? Nah, better ammunition like DM53 have roughly comparable performance when fired from Rh-120 L55 gun to M829A3 fired from M256 L44. I would rather say it is definetely exaggarated.
 

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