What and who is "The West" ?

civfanatic

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Tsar Peter said so.
Pyotr attempted to remodel Russian society and polity along Western lines, but he did not make it an integral part of the West. His efforts can be broadly compared to those Ataturk, though Turkey would not be considered part of the "West" either.
 

W.G.Ewald

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The concept [West versus East] still seemed to have considerable meaning to the Europeans of the 18th and 19th centuries.
Did most Europeans really dwell on What and who is "The West?" or did they primarily seek trade and wealth? The idea of self-contemplation seems only to be a subject suitable for academics.
 

civfanatic

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You doubt that Russia is part of the Western civilization?
Yeah. That's why I asked the question.

Almost all comparative historians that I've read - Toynbee, Spengler, McNeill, etc. - have identified Russia as a separate civilization between East and West, with considerable influence from both.
 

Iamanidiot

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The concept means a lot to stormfront variety and these individuals seem to be on the rise in Europe and north America
 

civfanatic

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Did most Europeans really dwell on What and who is "The West?" or did they primarily seek trade and wealth? The idea of self-contemplation seems only to be a subject suitable for academics.
For Europeans of that time period the 'West' was basically European Christendom and its offshoots (America, Australia, etc.)

They didn't dwell on their own identity as much as the differences between them and the "East" (which is incomparably larger and more diverse than the 'West').
 

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"The difficulty in understanding the Russians is that we do not take cognizance of the fact that he is not a European, but an Asiatic, and therefore thinks deviously. We can no more understand a Russian than a Chinaman or a Japanese, and from what I have seen of them, I have no particular desire to understand them, except to ascertain how much lead or iron it takes to kill them. In addition to his other Asiatic characteristics, the Russian have no regard for human life and is an all out son of bitch, barbarian, and chronic drunk. "

--Gen. George S Patton
 

asianobserve

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I think it is part of the Western civilization, at least culturally. This is specially true in the great Russian centers of St. Petersburg and Moscow. In the last century however Russia has diverged significantly in terms of politics and economics.
 

civfanatic

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I think it is part of the Western civilization, at least culturally. This is specially true in the great Russian centers of St. Petersburg and Moscow. In the last century however Russia has diverged significantly in terms of politics and economics.
What aspects of Russian culture are distinctly 'Western'? Russian religion, language, and even script are all distinct from the West. Russian politics, economics, and society have always been markedly different from the 'West', long before the 20th century.

Unlike the 'West', which has its ultimate roots in the (Western) Roman Empire, Russia has its roots in the Byzantine (Eastern Roman) Empire, and has also been greatly influenced by Asiatic cultures like the Khazars and Mongols/Tatars. Also, Russia never underwent the same historical processes like the Renaissance, Reformation, and Enlightenment that created the modern West. Russia developed in its own unique manner and therefore deserves to be treated as a distinct civilizational entity (other Orthodox nations like Bulgaria, Serbia, etc. do not belong to the West either; they can be said to belong to the same greater civilization as Russia).
 

asianobserve

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What aspects of Russian culture are distinctly 'Western'? Russian religion, language, and even script are all distinct from the West. Russian politics, economics, and society have always been markedly different from the 'West', long before the 20th century.

Unlike the 'West', which has its ultimate roots in the (Western) Roman Empire, Russia has its roots in the Byzantine (Eastern Roman) Empire, and has also been greatly influenced by Asiatic cultures like the Khazars and Mongols/Tatars. Also, Russia never underwent the same historical processes like the Renaissance, Reformation, and Enlightenment that created the modern West. Russia developed in its own unique manner and therefore deserves to be treated as a distinct civilizational entity (other Orthodox nations like Bulgaria, Serbia, etc. do not belong to the West either; they can be said to belong to the same greater civilization as Russia).
Language not Western? What is Western language anyway? English? French? Italian? German? These are all different languages... just like how different Russian is to these languages. So you cannot claim Easternness from the Russian language. Maybe "Eastern Europeanness," which, BTW is still "European," thus, part of the "Western civilization."

Here are graphic illustrations of languages (written) of some countries from the Western civilization including Russia.

German


Greek


Russian


Now compare those written languages with that of Asian countries (Eastern civilization):





It's clear that the first group of languages above have closer similarities to each other as against the languages below.

Then, regarding culture. Maybe you listen to classical music? Prokofiev? Rachmaninoff? Stravinsky? Tchaikovsky? They're all Russians and bedrocks of Western culture. And if you haven't really paid attention to them then I suggest you take some time off reading about leftist materials and start relaxing and exploring the wonderful world of classical music. I guarantee you it will do you a lot of good.





Regarding Russia's Byzantine roots, please note that it is not necessarily Eastern (Asian). What are the countries that can claim its Byzantine roots Greece, Yugoslavia, etc. As far as I am concerned they're Europeans and firmly part of the West (you cannot get more "Western" as Greece which is considered "the" cradle of Western civilization).

BTW, Byzantine Empire is an offshoot of the Roman Empire. In fact the Russians, like their Western European counterparts, are Christians.

Please put into context my above discussion, it is based on the dichotomy of "Western civilization" from "Eastern civilization." Not the more recent political and economic distinction of the "West (Western bloc - capitalist and liberal countries)" and the rest.
 
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civfanatic

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Language not Western? What is Western language anyway? English? French? Italian? German? These are all different languages... just like how different Russian is to these languages. So you cannot claim Easternness from the Russian language. Maybe "Eastern Europeanness," which, BTW is still "European."
Western languages are the Romance and Germanic languages. Of course, language by itself is not an indicator of which civilization a country belongs.


Maybe you don't listen to classical music? Prokofiev? Rachmaninoff? Stravinsky? Tchaikovsky? Take some time off reading about leftist materials and start relaxing and exploring the wonderful world of classical music. I guarantee you it will do you a lot of good.
Yeah, Russian music has been influenced by the West. So has Russian dance and painting. But do these things really define what Russia is and stands for?
 

Shaitan

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Right now the western culture is American culture, popular culture. Which is influenced by others. From Africa to Europe.
 

civfanatic

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Right now the west is American culture, popular culture. Which is influenced by others. From Africa to Europe.
You're actually right. When people say "Western" values, they actually mean "American values".

Without America, the West as it stands today is nothing.
 

asianobserve

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You're actually right. When people say "Western" values, they actually mean "American values".

Without America, the West as it stands today is nothing.

That's why we have to define in what context are we discussing the issue of the "West." The historical context of "Western civilization" as distinguished from "Eastern civilization" or the 20th century demarcation of "West" (Western bloc - referring to capitalist and liberal democratic countries) or the "East" (referring to the Eastern Bloc countries of the former USSR and those influenced by them, that are socialist oriented).
 

pmaitra

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Marxism as an idea may have originated from the West but they never put it into practice.
In practice, for decades, and as we speak, right now, in UK, France, Germany, and, <surprise, surprise>, the US of A. ;)

Anyway, the Western Bloc should largely refer to the NATO countries of the Western hemisphere. Their most important contributions aside from the defeat of the USSR are Western democracy (parliamentary systems or presidential in the case of America), free market and globalization (capitalism as it is commonly called).
Free Market and Globalization is not commonly called Capitalism (with the exception of the common man, I suppose). Neither is Free Market Capitalism, nor is Globalization.

That's why we have to define in what context are we discussing the issue of the "West." The historical context of "Western civilization" as distinguished from "Eastern civilization" or the 20th century demarcation of "West" (Western bloc - referring to capitalist and liberal democratic countries) or the "East" (referring to the Eastern Bloc countries of the former USSR and those influenced by them, that are socialist oriented).
Capitalist countries can never be liberal, leave alone democratic.

Democracy results in Socialism, Plutocracy results in Capitalism; and in each case, the other way around as well.
 

asianobserve

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In practice, for decades, and as we speak, right now, in UK, France, Germany, and, <surprise, surprise>, the US of A. ;)
Marxism is practiced in the West eh? Have they already abolished private ownership...? The "proletariat" already directly control the means of production in these countries?

Free Market and Globalization is not commonly called Capitalism (with the exception of the common man, I suppose). Neither is Free Market Capitalism, nor is Globalization.
Just consider capitalism the generic term and the other terms you mentioned as variations of that generic term. Anyway, you don't need to lecture me on those matters.

Capitalist countries can never be liberal, leave alone democratic.

Democracy results in Socialism, Plutocracy results in Capitalism; and in each case, the other way around as well.
Okay, I get the drift... :rolleyes:
 

pmaitra

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Marxism is practiced in the West eh?

EBT Card.

I was being rhetorical. Marxism is not practiced per se, but socialism is. The USA is more socialist than the Russian Federation.

Have they already abolished private ownership...?
No, but the drift exists: Microsoft ordered to split into two companies | Technology | guardian.co.uk

The "proletariat" already directly control the means of production in these countries?
Farmers are subsidized, so yes, the USA is more benevolent towards the peasants, than Marx himself.

Just consider capitalism the generic term and the other terms you mentioned as variations of that generic term. Anyway, you don't need to lecture me on those matters.
I'd rather not consider Capitalism as a generic term. You may prefer to use it for your convenience, but it is not what you think. I will lecture you, but it is your choice to absorb or deflect.

Okay, I get the drift... :rolleyes:
Thanks!
 

asianobserve

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EBT Card.

I was being rhetorical. Marxism is not practiced per se, but socialism is. The USA is more socialist than the Russian Federation.


No, but the drift exists: Microsoft ordered to split into two companies | Technology | guardian.co.uk


Farmers are subsidized, so yes, the USA is more benevolent towards the peasants, than Marx himself.
You're tuning in too much to Tea Party ignoramus claims. The US is no more socialist than Russia is culturally Asian...

I'd rather not consider Capitalism as a generic term. You may prefer to use it for your convenience, but it is not what you think. I will lecture you, but it is your choice to absorb or deflect.
Here I did you a favor... Capitalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not quite.
 
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pmaitra

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