Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[Ray]

How many years ago was the GSQR formulated?

The product was not given in time when the GSQR was made to suit the environment. Years went by and nothing came to the GSQR requirements.

Has the world not changed and the operational scenario?

Therefore, can one be static?

 

[nitesh]

ray sir, I am reposting what was posted by ppqj earlier:

http://164.100.47.5/newdebate/214/22102008/11.00amTo12.00Noon.pdf

Please check page 17

 

[ppgj]

ray sir,

i do agree with you on your valuable observations. in various links on the thread, you can see many have been taken care.

you spoke of indigenous content being low. i do agree but this was also due to frequent changes in army's GSQR and timelines. there was simply no time to develop them in time. however even then the content is about 50%. this will go down if the army firms up a good order.

The Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) will be developing around 12 futuristic systems in five years for incorporation into India’s first indigenously built Arjun main battle tank (MBT), an official said here Wednesday.”The futuristic technology systems include automatic target tracking, defensive aids, laser warning, tank simulator systems. We are looking at developing robotic vehicles that would work on tele-link,” R. Jayakumar, associate director of the DRDO’s Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE), told reporters.

The organisation also plans to automate the tracking of targets.

“With the firing and mobility powers of the tank being satisfactory, the focus is now on making the vehicle invisible to the enemy through development of detection avoidance and laser warning systems,” said Jayakumar.

We are confident of getting more orders, which would enable us to have more local component content in the battle machine.”

Presently, the local content is around 50 percent. The engine and power train has been imported from Germany.

“We plan to source engines from Cummins India for future orders. If more orders come by, we can reduce the imported content to 25 percent,” Sundaresh added.

More at : DRDO to make indigenous Arjun tank hi-tech http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal...jun-tank-hi-tech_100159572.html#ixzz0f7fRiqjR

now only if the army gives a firm order.

 

[p2prada]

How many years ago was the GSQR formulated?

The product was not given in time when the GSQR was made to suit the environment. Years went by and nothing came to the GSQR requirements.

Has the world not changed and the operational scenario?

Therefore, can one be static?

I agree. Changes in GSQR is no reason for DRDO to be late. GSQR is not an excuse. Every change in GSQR was after atleast a decade gap. 1972 to 1982-85. 1985 to 2010(25 years) did not see changes in GSQR. Rather there were minor modifications. And the army said that Arjun failed winter trials only in 2007.

However, sir, based on your post you seem to suggest the Army will be able to maintain a 1000 Tank Arjun force along with some 3000 odd T-72s and T-90s. Is it feasible?

Also, Lt General Bharadwaj suggested a futuristic MBT after 20 years. So, will that not interfere with the induction process of the said new tank along with operating Arjuns and T-90s which will still have a decade or more of service in them. So, by 2040 we will be using 3 tank types. And the army has shown interest in the T-95 too.

 

[ppgj]

I agree. Changes in GSQR is no reason for DRDO to be late. GSQR is not an excuse. Every change in GSQR was after atleast a decade gap. 1972 to 1982-85. 1985 to 2010(25 years) did not see changes in GSQR. Rather there were minor modifications.

there was never an excuse.

take a look at what is stated by the minister in the parliament. i have given a pdf link in the previous links. here

http://164.100.47.5/newdebate/214/22102008/11.00amTo12.00Noon.pdf

A GSQR 326 issued 1972 and the Prototype was ready in 1983. but in 1982 another GSQR was issued because of which a new tank was design was initiated accordingly.yet another GSQR 667 was issued in 1985 and the tank was ready in 1995! from the pre production series made available whatever problems army came across were solved and they were satisfied.

the tank prototype was ready in 1995. the army just started scuttling it from there.

And the army said that Arjun failed winter trials only in 2007.

it is the other way.

“The army chief for the first time has appreciated Arjun tank for performing well. In a letter written earlier this year he said that the tank was subjected to the most strenuous of tests and it performed ‘admirably well’,” a defence ministry official told IANS on the condition of anonymity.

The letter from the army chief came after last year’s winter trials of the tank, which has already cost the exchequer Rs.3.5 billion ($71.7 million). The stand is a complete u-turn as the army had made it clear that it would buy no more than the 124 Arjuns it has contracted for because it is unhappy with the tank on various counts.

More at : Arjun tank gets vote of support from Indian Army chief http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal...ndian-army-chief_100156945.html#ixzz0f80wgkHQ

 

[p2prada]

More at : Arjun tank gets vote of support from Indian Army chief http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal...ndian-army-chief_100156945.html#ixzz0f80wgkHQ

His statements here look more like a pat on the back, "Good work guys you made it," rather than showing interest in procuring.

It is like taking a test drive on a Merc, giving positive comments on it and walking away.

 

[ppgj]

His statements here look more like a pat on the back, "Good work guys you made it,"

you are entitled to your view.

rather than showing interest in procuring. It is like taking a test drive on a Merc, giving positive comments on it and walking away.

this, anyway they have proven beyond doubt. i agree with you on this.

 

[venkat]

T-72 ,T-90 and ARJUN are being manufactured by one single firm HVF ,AVADI. Generally these will be manufactured by different assembly lines of T-72,T-90 and ARJUN in the same factory area!!! our general tendency is that one group doesnt share information with others!!! I suggest the Directors of HVF/CVRDE ,since the factory is under their full control , should take one tank each from Assembly lines and subject them to an independent comparative tests with out involving army and can draw a compliance matrix showcasing the performace figures of all the three!!! If they are satisifed and confident ,they can invite Army personnel for the end user trials!!! why they are not doing this? with out Army involvement dont they have access to all terrains?

 

[sayareakd]

Thanks for great info Ray sir.

hope that IA will take steps for protection of crew, as tank crew is second only to the fighter pilots for any war, if they survive they can fight another day with new tank.

 

[gb009]

nitesh, if you look at the whole saga of Arjun it is clear - periodic GSQR'S were issued to delay, scuttle and finally kill the Arjun while using the same delays to augment additional T-90 numbers and upgrades there on.

Sir are you suggesting that army's denial to induct Arjuns is a planned strategy that started way back in 1982 (2nd GSQR)? 27 years!! With something so big it would be good to see some proof(all the way from 1982 at least). Otherwise whats stopping someone from arguing that this plan (to delay, scuttle, kill DRDO's 1st MBT) was started the day IA was formed.

Lot of people are eager to support DRDO saying "it never had any experience in building tanks" when delays in Arjun project are pointed out. You could also pause and think about IA in 1972, 1982 etc when the GSQRs were issued. It was not the most mature army in the world (still isn't I guess) and probably had never issued a GSQR for a tank before so was not far sighted enough to ask for what it required way in to the future. But if you are happy to think of this as a conspiracy then I don't know what else to say.

the army has never been interested to that aspect. since MOD has a final say, they should just shut the scuttlers in the army and introduce the tank. it has been proven in summer, winter and AUCR trials. how many times does it have to prove itself?? it is a joke being played by a section of the army on all indians. the joke needs to be put to rest.

This is also a joke -> Army demands a tank around 50 tonnes, DRDO makes one thats 58.5 tonnes and then says the extra weight is for protection. If the DRDO was not planning to give army what it wanted(or if weight is not an issue at all as many feel) then why not build a tank thats around 100 tones with so much armor on it that it could take a whole battalion of Abrams head on and then force the army to buy it, not worrying about maintenance costs, fuel etc. I know this is rubbish but the point is that an end user should get what he/she wants to use not what the manufacturer wants to produce. What has DRDO done to bring down the weight of Arjun during all this time? I don't know, just curious to know if something has been done.

About supporting Indian industries:When you(people among us) buy a car how many of us go for one best suited to our needs and how many go for lets say the TATA Indica (not becuase its bested suited to our needs but because its indigenous)? Now why apply different rules to the Army. I think in case of the army such rules should not at all be applied because the enemy is not going to go easier on Arjun tanks because they are indigenous. I don't mean to say that Arjun is inferior, but that arguments like supporting Indian industries should not be used here. Only the best should find their way into the army irrespective of origin (provided we can afford it).

I would like to see the Arjun inducted, at least till the minimum number required by DRDO (500). But that does not mean supporting the DRDO blindly and critsizing the IA again blindly.

 

[Sabir]

About less indigenous components, I think it will be increased in future if there is more orders. For 126 tanks, manufacturing all components will not be cost effective and that in turn increase the unit cost. So it is better to out source them. If there is fresh order say for 500 units, they can think of indigenous production of many components.

 

[ppgj]

Sir are you suggesting that army's denial to induct Arjuns is a planned strategy that started way back in 1982 (2nd GSQR)? 27 years!! With something so big it would be good to see some proof(all the way from 1982 at least). Otherwise whats stopping someone from arguing that this plan (to delay, scuttle, kill DRDO's 1st MBT) was started the day IA was formed.

Lot of people are eager to support DRDO saying "it never had any experience in building tanks" when delays in Arjun project are pointed out. You could also pause and think about IA in 1972, 1982 etc when the GSQRs were issued. It was not the most mature army in the world (still isn't I guess) and probably had never issued a GSQR for a tank before so was not far sighted enough to ask for what it required way in to the future. But if you are happy to think of this as a conspiracy then I don't know what else to say.


This is also a joke -> Army demands a tank around 50 tonnes, DRDO makes one thats 58.5 tonnes and then says the extra weight is for protection. If the DRDO was not planning to give army what it wanted(or if weight is not an issue at all as many feel) then why not build a tank thats around 100 tones with so much armor on it that it could take a whole battalion of Abrams head on and then force the army to buy it, not worrying about maintenance costs, fuel etc. I know this is rubbish but the point is that an end user should get what he/she wants to use not what the manufacturer wants to produce. What has DRDO done to bring down the weight of Arjun during all this time? I don't know, just curious to know if something has been done.

About supporting Indian industries:When you(people among us) buy a car how many of us go for one best suited to our needs and how many go for lets say the TATA Indica (not becuase its bested suited to our needs but because its indigenous)? Now why apply different rules to the Army. I think in case of the army such rules should not at all be applied because the enemy is not going to go easier on Arjun tanks because they are indigenous. I don't mean to say that Arjun is inferior, but that arguments like supporting Indian industries should not be used here. Only the best should find their way into the army irrespective of origin (provided we can afford it).

I would like to see the Arjun inducted, at least till the minimum number required by DRDO (500). But that does not mean supporting the DRDO blindly and critsizing the IA again blindly.

all i can say/suggest you is to go to the first post of the thread and start reading to the end. you will have answers for all your observations.

 

[gb009]

all i can say/suggest you is to go to the first post of the thread and start reading to the end. you will have answers for all your observations.

Nice answer, leaves no way to counter it. May be I should have posted this .

 

[bengalraider]

The right question today is do we need to? The fact is during the 80s, the T-72s replaced all those older less capable tanks like T-55s and Centurions. Today the Arjun is going to replace only a similar capability tank which will only increase lifecycle costs and additional costs for change in infrastructure. So, why rush things when a Arjun Mk2 can be made? DRDO has also expressively suggested that the Arjun Mk2 will be developed. Things like indigenous will come someday. But, rushing it on untested platforms unless there is a massive capability boost is not recommended by any military. The T-72/T-90 is a time tested platform, no General will pin hopes on a new tank without extensive user trials. Even the T-72 went through massive testing before and after induction.

Also, having 2 different platforms will increase logistics all over again. The fact is having 1600 Arjun HMBTs is simply not feasible for most armies in the world, including India.

The Vijayantas and the T -55's were never completely phased out as of now the IA still operates around 450 T-55's and 700 odd vijayantas these are in the process of being phased out
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/india/army-equipment.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equipment_of_the_Indian_Army
The above would also indicate that the IA does have a logistics setup for at least three different types of tanks i.e we could use one of the older setups after suitable modifications for the arjun
The Time testedness of the T-72 has only exposed it's flaws in grozny, Georgia and Iraq; While the T-72 is an excellent tank for it's design philosophy i doubt whether that is the best design philosophy for us. the T-72 was designed to be cheap fast and easy to mass produce it was also designed for hit avoidance not for the capability to take hits, though modern upgrades have done a lot to stymie that flaw it is still part of the tank, i also do not believe that the T-72 and the Arjun are of similar capabilities, the user and manufacturer trials of the Arjun are well documented as well.In some respects the T-72 was far less well tested than the arjun as the U.S.S.R was in a rush to have the tank ready asap.

 

[p2prada]

The Vijayantas and the T -55's were never completely phased out as of now the IA still operates around 450 T-55's and 700 odd vijayantas these are in the process of being phased out
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/india/army-equipment.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equipment_of_the_Indian_Army

I am aware. We operate the Mig-21s too. We can't afford to change tanks en masse. It is too expensive. The current Vijayantas are reserve. The T-55s are not going to be used in a war.

The above would also indicate that the IA does have a logistics setup for at least three different types of tanks i.e we could use one of the older setups after suitable modifications for the arjun

The logistics foot print of a Vijayanta is not similar to Arjun.

The Time testedness of the T-72 has only exposed it's flaws in grozny, Georgia and Iraq; While the T-72 is an excellent tank for it's design philosophy i doubt whether that is the best design philosophy for us. the T-72 was designed to be cheap fast and easy to mass produce it was also designed for hit avoidance not for the capability to take hits, though modern upgrades have done a lot to stymie that flaw it is still part of the tank, i also do not believe that the T-72 and the Arjun are of similar capabilities, the user and manufacturer trials of the Arjun are well documented as well.In some respects the T-72 was far less well tested than the arjun as the U.S.S.R was in a rush to have the tank ready asap.

T-90s have way better armour than the old T-72s. Iraq war did not prove anything. The Iraqis were out numbered, out classed and out maneuvered. It had nothing to do with the defects of the tank.

 

[p2prada]

all i can say/suggest you is to go to the first post of the thread and start reading to the end. you will have answers for all your observations.

Whatever gb009 posted are similar to my views. None of what he asked have been answered properly. Even Ray sir said the Arjun's engines are less than satisfactory.

The army decides what they want to buy, not the govt, not DRDO, nor the public.

The GSQR changed based on threat perception and not because the army wanted to run around in circles.

DRDO never delivered in time.

 

[bengalraider]

I am aware. We operate the Mig-21s too. We can't afford to change tanks en masse. It is too expensive. The current Vijayantas are reserve. The T-55s are not going to be used in a war.

I never said enmasse what i meant to say was that there is still space for 500 arjuns without counting the T-72's and T-90's, as the older tanks are phased out we could change some of the regiments into arjun .

logistics foot print of a Vijayanta is not similar to Arjun.

No it is not , however much of the ancillary facilities such as machine tools etc remain much the same , i said modified suitably . instead of creating a whole new she-bang we could use some of the older elements that are compatible while brining in new equipment where required.

-90s have way better armour than the old T-72s. Iraq war did not prove anything. The Iraqis were out numbered, out classed and out maneuvered. It had nothing to do with the defects of the tank.

the Comparison you had made was to a T-72(or at least that's what i got from reading it) anyhoo it is not only Iraq but even Georgia and grozny i am talking about the T-series has it's design flaws and the vulnerability of the T-72 to a direct hit with the turret blowing up is one of them that has been well documented there's no escaping that.

 

[bengalraider]

Whatever gb009 posted are similar to my views. None of what he asked have been answered properly. Even Ray sir said the Arjun's engines are less than satisfactory.

The army decides what they want to buy, not the govt, not DRDO, nor the public.

The GSQR changed based on threat perception and not because the army wanted to run around in circles.

DRDO never delivered in time.

Srry to be butting in between yourself and ppgj but i believe ray sir said

The Arjun MBT power pack was a major problem. It was the German 1400 HP MTU 838 Ka 501Diesel engine, while even Leopard 2 uses a newer version, MTU mb 873 multi-fuel, 1500 hp engine. The engine did not meet the rigorous Indian environment successfully. It is obvious that the engine suits Indian arid conditions and is able to perform under extreme environmental conditions. The new engine should have an increased cruising range from 120 miles to 250 miles. The reason is simple since it is not a linear battle matrix. The CT, CG and CC have to encompass the battlefield as per the tactical milieu. This is really important and was indicated that it should be on the top of the agenda of DRDO. This, it is believed has been addressed.

also the most important line in his entire post as per me would be

In Arjun, the crew is protected from ammunition by the armour so in case of ammunition being hit doesn’t causes crew to meet death in a burning hell. It gives them precious time to escape and live to fight another day with a brand new tank.

This is also the reason the Israelis built the rear door into the Merkava , a tank is easily replaceable a trained and experienced sometimes veteran crew takes a lifetime to replace, the whermact heer had far better tanks towards the end of WW2 than at the beginning, however partly due to combat losses and partly due to Hitler's megalomania (guderian , rommel) the Whermact had far fewer experienced tank commanders, a tank is only as good as it's crew.

 

[ppgj]

Whatever gb009 posted are similar to my views.

no problems.

None of what he asked have been answered properly.

same can be said about your answers in support of T-90.

Even Ray sir said the Arjun's engines are less than satisfactory.

you can read again Ray sir's post. he has said lot of positive things about Arjun including the Engine and this -

In the end, after 7-8 years Indian Armored Corps should have more than 1000 Arjun Mk1 and Mk2

The army decides what they want to buy, not the govt, not DRDO, nor the public.

but MOD/GOI has the final say. similar to how they will decide the MRCA out of 2/3 final contestants.

The GSQR changed based on threat perception and not because the army wanted to run around in circles.

have answered before.

DRDO never delivered in time.

have posted a link too of the parliament discussion where the minister has answered this. if you do not want to beleive him, nothing can be done.

 

[ppgj]

Nice answer, leaves no way to counter it. May be I should have posted this .

let's take a look at some of your comments in your original post -

Otherwise whats stopping someone from arguing that this plan (to delay, scuttle, kill DRDO's 1st MBT) was started the day IA was formed.

It was not the most mature army in the world

Army demands a tank around 50 tonnes, DRDO makes one thats 58.5 tonnes and then says the extra weight is for protection.

then why not build a tank thats around 100 tones with so much armor on it that it could take a whole battalion of Abrams head on and then force the army to buy it,

those are the comments which reflect - you have not gone through the thread fully. hence i said what i said. if you still want to keep your view, you are entitled to that.