Indian Army Armored Vehicles

[ersakthivel]

Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

All is depend on contex. On India-Pakistani border it can be very good, and effective. T-80UD is still vell-protected tank.


I not suspect mirracle here:
a) lack of technology like in Russia, USA, Germany
b) low quality previous produced licenced ammo and tanks
I suppoose that India will buy licence for some western APFSDS and will try to chang it to rifted gun. We will see, but as I said - I not suspected mirracle here. Achive circa 600mm RHA will be greate result when we look on now existing Indian tank ammo.

We buy APAChE and RAFALE from abroad in huge numbers along with 100s of GE engine. So it is laughable that some one like you sitting in some obscure corner of Eastern europe having wet dreams about Indian army not having access to modern western tank rounds. last year we bought items worth 10 billion from israel. DO you know how many zeroes are there for 10 billions.

Still your stuffed self believes India cannot import latest western rounds or develop them!!!!

When those worse than T-80 UD armor was put on T-90s in russian factory , we have developed significantly much more advanced Kanchan armor for ARJUN all by ourselves without any miracle!!!!.

You can give some credit to the indian armor engineers that they won't have slept tight from 1990 to 2013 unable to better the 1980s state of the art T-80 UD armor. You don't have proof that they haven't and I don't have proof that that they had.

Obvious, and what?


Show me when I told this Just show.
I said that Indian engeneers have more difficult way to achive the same level as Pak. engeneers - they just copy very good in 1990s armour. And in India engeeners must almoust all did alone -there is no comfirm info about armour technology transfer to India.

Indian engineers developed KANCHAN composite armor well before pakistani engineers ever heard the word composite armor.

Are you stupid or what?

Greate - CAPITAN OBVIOUS TO THE RESCUE!
Again - are you stupid? Are you able to read whit understand what I had wrote in my previous post?
I know -my english is far from perfect but just read this post again -you just wrote what I had written previous in my post.
u mad?

Don't hide behind excuses like stupid English. Accept honestly that you have no proof whatsoever for the penetration capability of kanchan armor and shut up.

BUAHAHAHAHA "volumen"
Bigger volumen means bigger m3 needed to protect, means heavier tank, means bigger HP and engine needed.
bigger Volumen hav nothing common whit bigger protection

i cannot argue forever with rip van winkles.I have posted 100s of posts in ARJUn MBT and

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-army/44522-arjun-vs-t90-mbt-97.html#post710990

in the above link on the subject and in no mood to suffer BUAHAHAHAHA "volumen" from illiterates again.

And You mixed two diffrent things. Arjun have huge volumen in m3 but space occuped by special armour is smaller then in western tanks. Smaller LOS thickness, biger frontal surface, bigger wak spots, etc.


No, it was not. Arjun have very poor turret sides protection and this is obvious until tohose storage boxes will not be replaced by armour modules. And have huge gun mantled mask, and small LOS after main sight. More or les it's weaker armour integrity then in most tanks -including T-90A whit welded turret. Or T-80UD.

BUAHAHAHAHA "volumen" . These kind of witch doctor thesis must be kept in your home.

Everything about weakness behind main sight and lesser LOS thickness has already been busted in the following links with 90 pages long discussion.

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-army/44522-arjun-vs-t90-mbt-97.html#post710990

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-army/44522-arjun-vs-t90-mbt-97.html#post710990
go to post no-1444 , where I conclusively proved that - 3140-2030=1000 mm/2 =500 mm is the gap available for armor cavity between the turret inner wall and outer side walls on each side including the storage boxes.

And mk-2 is going to even replace this storage box to occupy entire 500 mm with composite armor.they can be done to mk-1 in MLU as well.

So we need no capitan to rescue the ARJUN on that count.

So your wet dreams of Arjun having no composite armor on the sides has already been busted.

Army recognition is teh same source as wikipedia. It's poor and full mistakes. There is no place to put "all AROUN" Arjun turrret composite armour, and there is no single photo whit even small proof about this.

Army recognition site states the truth.

But you guys always post "BUAHAHAHAHA "volumen"" , hiding behind lame excuses like broken english.

It was example given to you, becouse you are disabled in tank thema.
And where wyou have "safe ammo storage"now in Arjun?! WTF?

STFU. and go to,

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-army/44522-arjun-vs-t90-mbt-97.html#post710990

to know that.

And what ammo have IA after those two decades? Phatetic rifted ammo on erly 1980s level, and 3BM42 from 1986. So those " two decades of R&D" whit Israel are not moving to have better ammo in India. How about tank engines - again - two decades of R&D and what? Uuu shitty W84MS clones, and old clone of export version MB.
You shoud understand that "two decades of R&D" do not mean "we have smth on today level".

Already a proposal is there for firms for developing 1800 hp engine with the half the weight of present ARJUN engine for FMBT version.

And for a country which made 84 kn thrust jet engine internal combustion engines are no rocket science. But retards are never going to understand it.

Greate - CAPITAN OBVIOUS TO THE RESCUE AGAIN ! -yes I agree with You it so obvious that I haven't even anlogy now. Its O-B-V-I-O-U-S
so don't supporting me thesis if Im not doing them


I don't think soo.
Modern composite western armour in 1980s have the same lavel of protection (or slighty inferior) in compare to the T-80U/UD

You can shove this thesis of yours in some safe place, if you are not able to provide any kind of proof. Don't litter the threads with useless garbage.

Two first bathes T-90S as I know have orginally Russian armour.
BTW: if it's true:

Then it's funny becouse Indian even haven't option to copy some armour and improve it. So agains - whorst situation than in pakistan or china.

India has much better Kanchan armor, even before the arrival of T-90. Only pakistani engineers need the obsolete t-80ud to set their eyes on something called composite armor.

So no need for CAPITAN OBVIOUS TO THE RESCUE AGAIN !

CAPITAN OBVIOUS TO THE RESCUE AGAIN no.2 ! -yes I agree with You


And show me one single post when I told this. C'mon show me this post. You just unable to read whit understand one single post.

SO from now on you are not going to say the kanchan armor can only withstand 540 mm RHA APFSDS rounds, and nothing more.

that is a great relief for me.

those "LOL" APFSDS rounds? If you are talkin about them then those rounds will have problem to overpas frontal hull armour or even turret in T-72M1. Meybe under 1000m distance they have chanse.


No You can't.
T-72M1 and Aleya are export monkey model made in Soviet Union for export puporse and for WarPac members. And they have nothing common whit protection pure Soviet tanks - like T-80UD.
T-80UD even in 1995 was still "top", T-72M1 in 1995 was crap.

"BUAHAHAHAHA "volumen""
What is true today is both T-80UD and T-72m1 are all crap when compared to today's developments in composite armor.

becouse it have not. No single evidence better then know APFSDS round for Arjun. Maybe industry will developed smth. new.
And thesis about " shooting through the T-72" is PR bullshit. Meybe DM53 or M829A3 or Sniviets-2 can do that.

"BUAHAHAHAHA "volumen""
it was no BS. And documented firing trial.

Again -when Im write this? You just unable to read whit understand one single post.
ps. CAPITAN OBVIOUS TO THE RESCUE AGAIN no.3 !


1) But now IA haven't APFSDS able to penetrate frontal Al-Chalid armour it's sure.
2) Those "western round" must be first avaible for India. Who will sell You it? It will be like in tank engine thema -so mucht option but Indian TOT demands were too high and any western firm said - "sorry finally we are not interested". And IA left whit cummins engine...

For the money we are going to offer anyone can sell it.

They won't do "BUAHAHAHAHA "volumen"" like you are doing here.

if not we will develop it once ARJUn gets inducted in more numbers.

 

[militarysta]

Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank

We buy APAChE and RAFALE from abroad in huge numbers along with 100s of GE engine.

Don't be funny it's not argument. And Poland had bought in last decade 48 F-16 block 52 and 800 APC Patria AMV, and what?
One is not conected whit second.

So it is laughable that some one like you sitting in some obscure corner of Eastern europe having wet dreams about

I suppose that in my country life level, avarage life time, life standard and other is sevral times better then in your country So you can stop whit your full of complexes post-colonial butthurt pride It's phatetic.

about Indian army not having access to modern western tank rounds

Becouse till now it haven't
Obsolate 3Bm42 graciously sold by Russian, 120mm rifted round on erly 1980s level, and clon of IMI 125mm ammo. All on 1980s level.
And if Indian Industry still wil have sucht ridicculous TOT rules then still nobody will seld really good ammo. And Tank engines, and FCS, and many other components.

dia cannot import latest western rounds or develop them!!!!

Devloped on really modern level - I don;'t thinks so. Only 7 country are able to do that:
USA
Germany +Swizterland
Russia
Israeli
GB
France
And the only hope your industry is in Israel. Of course if they will sell really modern ammo. Till now nobody sold really modern tank ammo to India - only rubbish on 1980s level, becouse India haven;t any option and must buy even 3BM42 on 1986 level.

was put on T-90s in russian factory , we have developed significantly much more advanced Kanchan armor for ARJUN all by ourselves

Any proof that "much more advanced " ? Any one, single?

Indian engineers developed KANCHAN composite armor well before pakistani engineers ever heard the word composite armor.

And agian - how it's conected whit armour quality? Hmm?
Pakistan don't spend money and time to developed their own armour. Tehy just bought tank whit really good armour and copy it and improve. Meybe they pay more, but itis faster and result is more sure.

Accept honestly that you have no proof whatsoever for the penetration capability of kanchan armor

Now it sure that kanhan can windstand middle 1980s ammo and we don;t know if it better an how mucht.
But lookin at other tank problem in India I don't suspect mirracle here.

I have posted 100s of posts in ARJUn MBT and

And most users from forein countries (Dejawolf, Methos, Damian, I, AndiejBtt and other) had tried ty you how stupid is your thinking about that. It's your problem when you are unable to understand what at least 7 person had tried to explain.

Army recognition site states the truth.

buahahahah
exspecially when any draw, photo and other don;t proof that there is no composit armour on Arjun turret sides now. And no single photo whit sucht armour on Arjun in that place.

Already a proposal is there for firms for developing 1800 hp engine with the half the weight of present ARJUN engine for FMBT version.

Halooo -I was talkin about that - eacht big firm whit significant tank engines peed on that trade and those TOT rulles. Only cumming - developer whit no tank expirience allowed for sucht rules.

And for a country which made 84 kn thrust jet engine internal combustion engines are no rocket science.

LOL - again, for "a country which made 84 kn thrust jet engine" is impossible till now to produce even good tank ammo, and it was impossible to produce licenced T-90S in Avadi factory. First ~100 tanks was so bad quality that russian engeeners/workers must be sent to India to solved problem. Its funny when your post-colonial complexes are shouting from almoust all posts "uuu we made thrust engine so we able to..." bla bla bla. Sorry it doesn't work in that way.

if you are not able to provide any kind of proof.

I had posted many times in thise forum factory cut-viev draw of T-80U armour. They are easly to find.

India has much better Kanchan armor,

Any proof that is better? In Poland where developed CAWA-2 armour. Descripsion is exatly the same as for kanhan armour "multialyerd whit ble bla bla" and what? CAWA-2 (1990s) was no better then T-80U or Leo-2A4 armour, and even after put CAWA-2 module in T-72M1 those tank haven't super armour.
So there is no proof that Kanchan is better then russian solution.

For the money we are going to offer anyone can sell it.

Of course not Many many times many western and russian companies peed on sucht trades becouse they are not worth those money. Even stupid polish Bumar broke last trade for 300 WZT-3 fro India becouse rulles TOT where not OK even when we compare some money for developer. India will have acces to modern tank technology on level for which the permit Western/Estern companies. And real problem are stupid TOT rulles in india whit full licence or others. Nobody mentalhelt will allowed for that:
-sold technology
- sold factory line, find cooperation in India
- pay for Indian cooperator mistakes
- allow to free reexport sold technology
Till now almoust nobody allow for that.

 

[SilentKiller]

Hell with these experts.
If T80 tanks were so good, why they performed so poor in chechan wars.
That's a fact and it cannot be denied that T80 failed miserably in only war it took place in.
in Russia-georgia war, russian used old T-72 tanks along with few T 90's.
As per Russian claim which as per experts r always true, performed too good.

Kanchan equipped Arjuns, defeated T-90 in trials and then only army went ahead with these tanks.
so if as per u T80 is better than current modern T-90 tanks in turn arjun, u r either nuts or acts as if with big brians.

Anyone who believe what communists or dictator govts say is always correct have either lived under it and enjoyed power with them or have their brains remaoved by such govts earlier.
I am no tank experts nor claim to be, reason for india to invest further in arjun is that its giving back results now even though bit late.

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank

Don't be funny it's not argument. And Poland had bought in last decade 48 F-16 block 52 and 800 APC Patria AMV, and what?
One is not conected whit second.

Poland is neither an important country that needs to be courted as a strategic ally by US, vital for stability in Asia, nor going to be the world's third largest economy.

So don't apply your standards here.patriot missile was offered, green pine radar from israel was sold. phalcon AWACS is sold .

So offer your explanation why tech for tankshells won't be sold considering he strategic ties india has with US and many european countries and Russia.

France is selling scorpene submarines under the same pissed down TOT scheme and Russia has sold the SU-30 MKi under the same pissed down TOT scheme.

Negotiations for RAFALE is also going on the same TOT scheme , you hate the most.

But a stragic expert like you think that India cannot swing a TOT deal for TANK SHELLS!!!!!!. . Obviously you live in a small world, with small mind.

I suppose that in my country life level, avarage life time, life standard and other is sevral times better then in your country So you can stop whit your full of complexes post-colonial butthurt pride It's phatetic.

With those improved levels how many space launches you had?,

how many nuclear reactor powered subs you have fielded?

How many nuclear warheads you have?

How many different type of ballistic missiles you are having?What is their range?

How many fighter programs undergoing?

how many aircraft carriers under construction?

Atleast we in India have a complex-butthurt colonial mentality. You in Poland do not have any butt to get hurt.

answer these questions perhaps. So talk relevant stuff here.Not hot air.This thread is about Indian armored vehicles not polish life expectancy , living standard comparison.

Becouse till now it haven't
Obsolate 3Bm42 graciously sold by Russian, 120mm rifted round on erly 1980s level, and clon of IMI 125mm ammo. All on 1980s level.
And if Indian Industry still wil have sucht ridicculous TOT rules then still nobody will seld really good ammo. And Tank engines, and FCS, and many other components.

I thought Russians sold those rounds for money. Only after reading your post I came to know they sold it for grace. Thanks for altering my misconception!!!

those rounds were enough considering the stuff fielded by PAKISTAN then. Now Indian army knows what kind of ammo to field and DRDO knows how to develop it.Or buy it from abroad from Whom under the TOT regime you hate so much.

Without help from Poland ARJUN has a kick ass netcentric warfare ability,

most accurate FCS, ability to withstand searing summer desert high temp with no need for AC,

high power to weight to ratio, lower ground pressure per square inch,

best hydro suspension ,

most accurate firing on the move. Fortress like frontal kanchan armor,

than your 1980s state of the art T-80UD!!!!

Devloped on really modern level - I don;'t thinks so. Only 7 country are able to do that:
USA
Germany +Swizterland
Russia
Israeli
GB
France
And the only hope your industry is in Israel. Of course if they will sell really modern ammo. Till now nobody sold really modern tank ammo to India - only rubbish on 1980s level, becouse India haven;t any option and must buy even 3BM42 on 1986 level.

Are you a tank expert or Strategic expert? I have explained thousand times how India buys most modern military stuff from the world's most powerful nations with the same TOT regime you hte the most from T-50 5th gen stealth fighter to green pine radar from israel.

Any proof that "much more advanced " ? Any one, single?

First show a single proof for whatever fancy claim you make before asking the other guy for proof.

Start the good habit from today.

Show me proof of the much vaunted T-80UD armor's penetration limit.

And agian - how it's conected whit armour quality? Hmm?
Pakistan don't spend money and time to developed their own armour. Tehy just bought tank whit really good armour and copy it and improve. Meybe they pay more, but itis faster and result is more sure.

A really good T-80UD armor of the 1980s vintage!!! Poor pakis, god save them!!!!

Now it sure that kanhan can windstand middle 1980s ammo and we don;t know if it better an how mucht.
But lookin at other tank problem in India I don't suspect mirracle here.

kanchan is an ongoing development project for two decades, And there is no need for CVRDE or the concerned lab to show proof for some one like you from Poland.

And most users from forein countries (Dejawolf, Methos, Damian, I, AndiejBtt and other) had tried ty you how stupid is your thinking about that. It's your problem when you are unable to understand what at least 7 person had tried to explain.

Hilarious stuff.

All the stars across the seven seas haven't seen a production drawing in their life!!!!!!!

Don't know how to take measurements on a picture!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Don't even know what is perspective distortion of dimensions!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Without them how come you guys put defence professionals on your profile!!!!!!!!!!!

Not even a mechanical eng diploma!!!!!!!!!!! and you are all professionals making fancy 3D models with all Fkd up dimensions !!!!!

Anyway I enjoyed the most talking to you guys.


buahahahah , buahahahah , buahahahah ,

buahahahah
exspecially when any draw, photo and other don;t proof that there is no composit armour on Arjun turret sides now. And no single photo whit sucht armour on Arjun in that place.

To comprehend anything from drawing you are supposed to be a design professional.

All night broadbrand burning blogging won't teach you anything about production drawing!!!!!!!

Halooo -I was talkin about that - eacht big firm whit significant tank engines peed on that trade and those TOT rulles. Only cumming - developer whit no tank expirience allowed for sucht rules.

Simple ASHOK LEYLAND guys are capable of that with present day tech level.

A gujarath firm has put one of the world's largest size gear box assembly on The about to be built Indian aircraft carrier only last week.

Only last week ISRO entrusted HAL with the job of making cryogenic engines. DO you know what is cryogenic engine?

And K-9 derivative is modified to provide 12 KW power to Indian naval ships,

And we put a miniaturized nuclear reactor inside the hull of Nuclear submarine last year.

SO please stop your wet dreams of Ioconic companies like BUMAR , and many other MNCs standing in a Q to piss on our TOT requirements!!!!!

Don't compare India with polish standard forever.

LOL - again, for "a country which made 84 kn thrust jet engine" is impossible till now to produce even good tank ammo, and it was impossible to produce licenced T-90S in Avadi factory. First ~100 tanks was so bad quality that russian engeeners/workers must be sent to India to solved problem. Its funny when your post-colonial complexes are shouting from almoust all posts "uuu we made thrust engine so we able to..." bla bla bla. Sorry it doesn't work in that way.

India had a atnnk ammo to face upto threat perception from PAKISTAN. If pakistan gets better armor IA will do the needful to get an effective ammo with DRDO help or TOT way. You don't have to lose your midnight sleep for that.

Once again don't strut your BS russian engineer testimonials here. ARJUN tank which was far superior to T-90 was developed here even before the arrival of T-90s from avadi.In all initial production batches there will be a few problems to be resolved with issues on documentation and so on. . ofcourse only people with any kind of design know how alone will know that.

I had posted many times in thise forum factory cut-viev draw of T-80U armour. They are easly to find.

I asked for bonafide proof for it's penetration level, not your cutaway drawings!!!!!!!!

Any proof that is better? In Poland where developed CAWA-2 armour. Descripsion is exatly the same as for kanhan armour "multialyerd whit ble bla bla" and what? CAWA-2 (1990s) was no better then T-80U or Leo-2A4 armour, and even after put CAWA-2 module in T-72M1 those tank haven't super armour.
So there is no proof that Kanchan is better then russian solution.

Once again the R&D level in poland and in India are different. For example did you develop an ARJUN like tank in POLAND?

Don't drag poland into discussion on Indian armored vehicles.

Of course not Many many times many western and russian companies peed on sucht trades becouse they are not worth those money. Even stupid polish Bumar broke last trade for 300 WZT-3 fro India becouse rulles TOT where not OK even when we compare some money for developer. India will have acces to modern tank technology on level for which the permit Western/Estern companies. And real problem are stupid TOT rulles in india whit full licence or others. Nobody mentalhelt will allowed for that:
-sold technology
- sold factory line, find cooperation in India
- pay for Indian cooperator mistakes
- allow to free reexport sold technology
Till now almoust nobody allow for that

Obviously you are a Rip Van Winkle!!!! I have listed so many TOT deals in the opening t part of the post. Go and read it.

To Piss stupid polish Bumar should have something between their legs.

According to ARCHER's post in MBT ARJUN thread , it was found out that it had none between their legs in Indian trials!!!

SO no one peed any where. Don't try to provoke me by writing rubbish. if you don't have any technical points to post. please let us stop this whacky discussion!!!!

Any way ask the same guy who did the ghost writing for this post to do so in future.

It will relieve headaches of many in this forum.

But it won't provide a shred of informaton on Indian armored vehicles!!!!
Thanks.

 

[Damian]

If T80 tanks were so good, why they performed so poor in chechan wars.

History is well known... well perhaps not in India. Most of these tanks were not in high readiness, but were stored, when you store a tank for prolonged time period, you do not keep ERA on them, only empty containers.

Russians just used tanks without any additional protection, not to mention that these tanks were of older T-80BV variant, not more modern T-80U and T-80UD.

That's a fact and it cannot be denied that T80 failed miserably in only war it took place in.

Miserable is poor knowledge about this war that some people present by basing their "knowledge" on pseudo sources like Discovery Channel or such bollocks.

As was said, these tanks were older variant and were not properly equiped with dynamic protection. During 2nd Chechen war, T-72B tanks that were used then, had properly installed ERA and have surprisingy high survivability.

in Russia-georgia war, russian used old T-72 tanks along with few T 90's.

No, they used relatively modenr T-72B, and there were no T-90 tanks, only T-72B's with 4S20 Kontakt-1 and 4S22 Kontakt-5 dynamic protection. But I bet you will be unable to see a difference between T-72B with Kontakt-5 and T-90 do you?

so if as per u T80 is better than current modern T-90 tanks in turn arjun, u r either nuts or acts as if with big brians.

No, we have a knowledge, you clearly do not have any, claiming that there were T-90's in Georgia.

Anyone who believe what communists or dictator govts say is always correct have either lived under it and enjoyed power with them or have their brains remaoved by such govts earlier.

What this have to do with knowledge about tanks? I agree that socialism is pathethic system, but on the other hand, it is hard to call Soviet engineers a morons, they had many good ideas, and many times their concepts were far more ahead than concepts created in other countries.

I am no tank experts nor claim to be,

So you not having knowledge, still makes claims that can be called, just simple lies.

reason for india to invest further in arjun is that its giving back results now even though bit late.

And everyone is perfectly ok with this. Me, or others outside India, are only against unreasonable claims that Arjun is some sort of a super tank without any problems. This is the point, which most of you, seems to not understand, which is damn strage for us, that born in a different culture where objectivism and rationalism is something more important than national pride or other such behaviors.

 

[militarysta]

Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank

Poland is neither an important country that needs to be courted as a strategic ally by US, vital for stability in Asia, nor going to be the world's third largest economy.

Of course not, and again - capitan obvious to the rescue.
But acess to C3 and other in Poland is bigger then in India - beeing in EU, in NATO, beeing Leoben member. Those thing are exlusive only for NATO/EU So each place in word have advantages and disadvantages -remember about that.

So don't apply your standards here.patriot missile was offered, green pine radar from israel was sold. phalcon AWACS is sold .

patriot missile was offered for Poland too (PAC-2 and PAC-3) Aster-30 SAAMP/T too -more: one of them will be buy and produce on licence on Poland soon. Even very soon.(12 -14 division) Polish manufacure 3D radar ourself, no need export here. AWACS are used as NATO member so it's no neccesry to bought them.

France is selling scorpene submarines under the same pissed down TOT scheme

And on what rulles - read about them

and Russia has sold the SU-30 MKi under the same

And again read about thos trade. Su-30MKI whers seld whit some conditions - russian don;t want to sell protytype radars and others, so India had bought electroins and others from Israeli etc.

Negotiations for RAFALE is also going on the same

They are not ended yet, and again read about rulles when they are finished

you think that India cannot swing a TOT deal for TANK SHELLS

Not only this. 155mm SPHs, tank engines, tank FCS, tank ammo, etc In middle cost programs Indian TOT rulles ar ussaly unactabble for foregin developers. only those small or in bad conditions (like polish Bumar) agree on them.

With those improved levels how many space launches you had?,

how many nuclear reactor powered subs you have fielded?

How many nuclear warheads you have?

How many different type of ballistic missiles you are having?What is their range?

How many fighter programs undergoing?

how many aircraft carriers under construction?

Zero becouse we don't need them in Europe in EU in NATO etc. And for what we need them now? We haven't problem whit our neiberhoods, Polish geopolitycial and economy condition is the best from 300years. India have two diffciult neiberhoods - pakistan and PRC, so it need them.

This thread is about Indian armored vehicles not polish life expectancy , living standard comparison.

Well if you are start writing bullshits based on "we hawe nukes so we can build xx" then I can wrote "we have better life standard so" it's teh same stupid as yours

I thought Russians sold those rounds for money. Only after reading your post I came to know they sold it for grace. Thanks for altering my misconception!!!

Of course for money. And they sold not the best avaible rounds in Russia but 3 gen older ones. And what after faild India-IMI cooperation? Home mande Indian clones where so poor quality that IA must boight ammo from russia. And russian rise proce for how many? 300%.

those rounds were enough considering the stuff fielded by PAKISTAN then. Now Indian army knows what kind of ammo to field and DRDO knows how to develop it.

Indian industry is unable to made good home made T-72 or T-55 modernisation. Even on of IA chief told this clearlly in Poland in last year when he was asking about polish T-55 mods, becouse Indian industry is still unable developed sucht modernisation by themself. But IA have nukes and Su-30MKI:thumb:

Without help from Poland ARJUN has a kick ass netcentric warfare ability,

And? it's standard from IFIS and IFz in NATO from middle 1990s. In poland from 2005 in artilery (Topaz) and AA (Regina 2001), C3 (Jasmine 2004) and now it's coming to the single soilder (IMS Tytan) so?

most accurate FCS

Sure "the most"

most accurate firing on the move. Fortress like frontal kanchan armor,

than your 1980s state of the art T-80UD!!!!

Sorry but in ala German, British, Russian, Polish, Czeh, etc analyst, articles etc Arjun is given as example how to not produce tank and Al Chalid is given as example how do it in low-cost properly, and K2 and Altay how in hight-cost. And in most foregin articels Arjun is juge as weaker and whorse then Al Chalid and T-80U.

I have explained thousand times how India buys most modern military stuff from the world's most powerful nations with the same

80% of them are in monkey model.

Show me proof of the much vaunted T-80UD armor's penetration limit.

So read since here:
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/land-forces/208-main-battle-tanks-armour-technology-366.html

Don't compare India with polish standard forever

I will - in India its seals market nor customer market. It's fact.

India had a atnnk ammo to face upto threat perception from PAKISTAN. If pakistan gets better armor IA will do the needful to get an effective ammo with DRDO help or TOT way

Indian Army haven't ammo even to deal whit pak. T-80UD frontally. Sorry it's fact.

Once again don't strut your BS russian engineer testimonials here. ARJUN tank which was far superior to T-90 was developed here even before the arrival of T-90s from avadi.In all initial production batches there will be a few problems to be resolved with issues on documentation and so on. . ofcourse only people with any kind of design know how alone will know that.

Yeahh sure, those "a few problems" are present in most land-forces Indian industry programs - INAS, T-90, ammo, etc. It's high quality problem.

I asked for bonafide proof for it's penetration level, not your cutaway drawings!!!!!!!!

So go to btvt or otvaga -they are dozen good analyst and factory data.

Once again the R&D level in poland and in India are different.

Indeed -in Poland is higher in case armoured vehicles.

For example did you develop an ARJUN like tank in POLAND?

Yes, the Chariot program.

Go and read it.

Yeahhh for example monkey model T-90S without gun technology, engines, FCS, ammo, etc

 

[bhramos]

civilian or Army!!!

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank

Of course not, and again - capitan obvious to the rescue.
But acess to C3 and other in Poland is bigger then in India - beeing in EU, in NATO, beeing Leoben member. Those thing are exlusive only for NATO/EU So each place in word have advantages and disadvantages -remember about that.



patriot missile was offered for Poland too (PAC-2 and PAC-3) Aster-30 SAAMP/T too -more: one of them will be buy and produce on licence on Poland soon. Even very soon.(12 -14 division) Polish manufacure 3D radar ourself, no need export here. AWACS are used as NATO member so it's no neccesry to bought them.


And on what rulles - read about them


And again read about thos trade. Su-30MKI whers seld whit some conditions - russian don;t want to sell protytype radars and others, so India had bought electroins and others from Israeli etc.


They are not ended yet, and again read about rulles when they are finished



Not only this. 155mm SPHs, tank engines, tank FCS, tank ammo, etc In middle cost programs Indian TOT rulles ar ussaly unactabble for foregin developers. only those small or in bad conditions (like polish Bumar) agree on them.



Zero becouse we don't need them in Europe in EU in NATO etc. And for what we need them now? We haven't problem whit our neiberhoods, Polish geopolitycial and economy condition is the best from 300years. India have two diffciult neiberhoods - pakistan and PRC, so it need them.


Well if you are start writing bullshits based on "we hawe nukes so we can build xx" then I can wrote "we have better life standard so" it's teh same stupid as yours


Of course for money. And they sold not the best avaible rounds in Russia but 3 gen older ones. And what after faild India-IMI cooperation? Home mande Indian clones where so poor quality that IA must boight ammo from russia. And russian rise proce for how many? 300%.


Indian industry is unable to made good home made T-72 or T-55 modernisation. Even on of IA chief told this clearlly in Poland in last year when he was asking about polish T-55 mods, becouse Indian industry is still unable developed sucht modernisation by themself. But IA have nukes and Su-30MKI:thumb:


And? it's standard from IFIS and IFz in NATO from middle 1990s. In poland from 2005 in artilery (Topaz) and AA (Regina 2001), C3 (Jasmine 2004) and now it's coming to the single soilder (IMS Tytan) so?


Sure "the most"



Sorry but in ala German, British, Russian, Polish, Czeh, etc analyst, articles etc Arjun is given as example how to not produce tank and Al Chalid is given as example how do it in low-cost properly, and K2 and Altay how in hight-cost. And in most foregin articels Arjun is juge as weaker and whorse then Al Chalid and T-80U.


80% of them are in monkey model.


So read since here:
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/land-forces/208-main-battle-tanks-armour-technology-366.html


I will - in India its seals market nor customer market. It's fact.


Indian Army haven't ammo even to deal whit pak. T-80UD frontally. Sorry it's fact.


Yeahh sure, those "a few problems" are present in most land-forces Indian industry programs - INAS, T-90, ammo, etc. It's high quality problem.


So go to btvt or otvaga -they are dozen good analyst and factory data.


Indeed -in Poland is higher in case armoured vehicles.


Yes, the Chariot program.


Yeahhh for example monkey model T-90S without gun technology, engines, FCS, ammo, etc

Well with your post we will stop this intellectually stimulating discussion , as it is my birthday today , I am in no mood to post crap.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

Mr Obvious kindly provide some hard reference for your claims..

Thank you

What, now you start questioning the most obvious claims?

----------------------------------------------------

Now you are read my post Incorrectly or on purpose ?

I guess it is wrong because it speaks against what you claim?

------------------------------------

Gud you know, Now one cannot start assuming facts excluding any on these as i saying this based on your previous assumptions..

Metallurgy is not one of the main factors when it comes to penetration, shape (length, diameter) and velocity are much more important.

------------------------------------

I am not the one comparing this upgrade with Death Star, Are you ?!

My comparison was with earlier T-72M1 from Soviets..

This means regardless how the armour looks, it won't provide enough protection..

-------------------------------------

Same can be said for making new generation anti-tank to deal with new protection suits, your comment sound lame..

Because other tanks needed this protection to be protected against newer threats. There wasn't a single time where tank designer's thought "hey let's make the armour thicker and heavier for no reason".

----------------------------------------------------

Because your studies are not official but as a rough estimates based on public source..

Deal with it..

It is a highly debatable matter? Why? Because laws of physics suddenly stop to work when it comes to Chinese technology?

----------------------------------------------------

Best Estimate and assumption nothing else, And very good show about comparing Chinese mouth piece with other open democratic countries press..

Oh, so we should say it can't penetrate armour at all, shouldn't we? Guess what, there is also not a single mention about the penetration of M829A3 in media or pamphlets, so it also cannot penetrate armour!

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank

@ersakthivel, Happy Birthday..

I got me a bike on this occasion..

Well with your post we will stop this intellectually stimulating discussion , as it is my birthday today , I am in no mood to post crap.

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank

@ersakthivel, Happy Birthday..

I got me a bike on this occasion..

Thanks bhai, just mail me your bank account number and I will deposit the money:thumb:.

Only today my fever is under cntrol.

SO if you had a bike and party yesterday, that compensates for my lock down at home due to fever.

 

[methos]

Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

Mr Obvious kindly provide some hard reference for your claims..

You are funny. on the high level of protection of the T-80U has been commented in various books, like the ones mentioned. There have been two reports from Jane's about trials of Soviet tanks with Kontakt-5 (one article about German tests and another one about American tests), where Soviet MBTs with Kontakt-5 were found to be impenetratable by Cold War NATO equipment.

Gud you know, Now one cannot start assuming facts excluding any on these as i saying this based on your previous assumptions..

So you want me to assume that your Indian metallurgy is much better than the metallurgy from China and Paksitan, despite all three countries being NICs?
Unless I do start assuming their technology is inferior, which is what you as biased person in this matter wants me to do, their ammunition is better.

I am not the one comparing this upgrade with Death Star, Are you ?!

My comparison was with earlier T-72M1 from Soviets..

I am comparing your upgraded T-72M1 with what it has to be up to in order to be protected against the threats it will be facing. You compared it with the Soviet T-72M1, but this is completely out of the context of this dicussion. The M60A1 was also much better protected than the old M60 with M48-shaped turret, still it could be penetrated by everything it encountered on the battlefield (APDS', APFSDS', RPGs and ATGMs).

Same can be said for making new generation anti-tank to deal with new protection suits, your comment sound lame..

Oh, my comment sounds lame? So what?
It is correct, military development is always based on the principle of action and reaction. One example:
Action: The Soviets produce T-64s and T-72s immune to then existing 105 mm ammunition - Reaction: NATO starts to developed improved tank guns (M68A1, Rh 120 L44 and the British 110 mm rifled gun which never entered service).

Unless the Arjun tank is the only exception of this rule, the fact that ERA was adopted on the Arjun tank shows that the Kanchan armour does not provide enough protection against all threats the Indian Army is expecting to face.

Because your studies are not official but as a rough estimates based on public source..

The Lanz-Odermatt formula used to estimate the penetration performance of APFSDS was developed by two persons working at the Swiss Defence Procurement Agency (which is de facto military and official) and at RUAG (which is a large defence company).

 

[arnabmit]

Army. Look at the number plate.

civilian or Army!!!

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

Reference ?, I am not interested in chat.. :/

You are funny. on the high level of protection of the T-80U has been commented in various books, like the ones mentioned. There have been two reports from Jane's about trials of Soviet tanks with Kontakt-5 (one article about German tests and another one about American tests), where Soviet MBTs with Kontakt-5 were found to be impenetratable by Cold War NATO equipment.

-------------------------------

I dont command or asking you to assume anything, I merely said your assumptions are assumptions..

Is that not English enough for you ?

So you want me to assume that your Indian metallurgy is much better than the metallurgy from China and Paksitan, despite all three countries being NICs?
Unless I do start assuming their technology is inferior, which is what you as biased person in this matter wants me to do, their ammunition is better.

--------------------------------

Should have read my post at back, I never talked about threads, You are the only one running around with your idea and talking to yourself...

I am comparing your upgraded T-72M1 with what it has to be up to in order to be protected against the threats it will be facing. You compared it with the Soviet T-72M1, but this is completely out of the context of this dicussion. The M60A1 was also much better protected than the old M60 with M48-shaped turret, still it could be penetrated by everything it encountered on the battlefield (APDS', APFSDS', RPGs and ATGMs).

---------------------------------


Nothing but it show dents in your view, the view you talked about before..

Oh, my comment sounds lame? So what?

---------------------------------

So ? . ...

The Lanz-Odermatt formula used to estimate the penetration performance of APFSDS was developed by two persons working at the Swiss Defence Procurement Agency (which is de facto military and official) and at RUAG (which is a large defence company).

 

[bhramos]

Army. Look at the number plate.

i meant Civilian police!!!, as no civilian jeeps dont carry guns...
as never seen Army using such different civilian type of vehicles....

 

[militarysta]

Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

We use foreign equipment and make our own upgrade kits.

Rather Indian industry is unable to create (yet) it's own mods and must have help foregin industry. Those industry made mode, Indian Industry copy it and have their "own" upgrade kits.
How many T-55 Indians kits whare done?
How many T-72 Indians kit where done?
India still need help from Israel, South Africa, Poland, and many other countries. Sooner or layter it wil change and Indian industry will bought only some single componnets (guns, main sight, etc) but till now whole "system" bust be buy as "upgrade kit".

 

[militarysta]

Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

The problems of T-90 were never solved by the russians, it still has no satisfactory solution of linking it's night vision to fire controls and provision of AC.So it is a laughable contention saying that the troubles were there only because of Indians.

Of course not only, but they are dozen articles about T-90S and others in Europeean military press -and in eacht ones thery are mentioned problems whit Indian T-90S production.

With what source you are claiming ARJUN is not in the class of LEO is clear.Does leo-2 fires missiles through it's main gun?

And for what reson leo-2 shoud have in Europe LHAAT when max avarage fire range is 1300-1500m?
BTW: In Germany on trials proof that leo-2 can be easly integrated whit LHAAT.

On which parameter you call it will fall short of LEO,

1. Protection
2. Quality of beeing as prodcut
3. Firepower
4. Ergonomic
5. Crew proetection after perforation.

Don't quote round penetration of ARJUNs ,It has been already discussed to death here. Once ARJUN is inducted in numbers rounds development will happen.Implementing a s simple slip ring obdurator tech on any standard western smooth bore ammo makes it usable in ARJUn. We can keep the same penetrator anyway irrespective it being made for smooth bore or not.

Yeahhh sure. So we shoud wait for new-super-duper 120mm Arjun APFSDS while now using rounds are unable to do their job.

Also the muzzle velocity of ARJUn too is world class.

Not relevant.
Old 3BM15 can achive 1830m/s so what? It's not relevan in penetration. For example M829A3 have muzzle 1555m/s.

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

Of course not only, but they are dozen articles about T-90S and others in Europeean military press -and in eacht ones thery are mentioned problems whit Indian T-90S production.


And for what reson leo-2 shoud have in Europe LHAAT when max avarage fire range is 1300-1500m?
BTW: In Germany on trials proof that leo-2 can be easly integrated whit LHAAT.


1. Protection
2. Quality of beeing as prodcut
3. Firepower
4. Ergonomic
5. Crew proetection after perforation.


Yeahhh sure. So we shoud wait for new-super-duper 120mm Arjun APFSDS while now using rounds are unable to do their job.



Not relevant.
Old 3BM15 can achive 1830m/s so what? It's not relevan in penetration. For example M829A3 have muzzle 1555m/s.

There are hundreds of articels about T-80 getting it's butt whipped in chechen conflict.
More authetic than the dozen article about Indian production T-90s. So stop your unending campaign.
So crew protection after perforation is super duper in T-80 perhaps!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ARJUN did what the IA asked it to do . Period. And it is perfectly being capable of further upgrades to the level demaded by IA.

It does not have the washing machine type cramped interior of any t series product.

 

[sayareakd]

Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

Some of the foreign members think that we Indians dont do our R&D and are not up to date with the research being done by rest of the world. Please understand that we are the one who has develop BMD, ICBM, have capability to launch multiple satellite successfully and we have send payload to moon. Making a tank is not rocket science, it is difficult but not impossible.

 

[militarysta]

Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

There are hundreds of articels about T-80 getting it's butt whipped in chechen conflict.

And that's the way when person whithout knowledges about some conflict is trying to make a argument based on this conflickt.

During first Chechania war Russaian lost (2 years) 192 tanks. Catastrophic lost (completly destroyed tank) - only 65 tanks:
T-80B/BW - 23 tanks
T-72B/BW - 42 tanks
Almoust two times less then T-72 family...

More authetic than the dozen article about Indian production T-90s.

Rather not -the same authors from manufacurer, and pro.analysts.

So crew protection after perforation is super duper in T-80 perhaps!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

T-90S and T-80UD have the same -non existing - crew protection after perforation.