How the CIA was Fooled by India during pokhran II

[utubekhiladi]

WEAPONS OF PEACE
How the CIA was Fooled
WEAPONS OF PEACE
BY RAJ CHENGAPPA
HARPER COLLINS
PRICE: Rs 295

In the summer of 1998, India stunned the world when it conducted five underground nuclear tests in the space of three days. A year down the line, the government plans to celebrate May 11 as Resurgent India Day. Strategists will assess the gains and losses of Pokhran II. But there is also a human saga behind India's largely secret quest to be a nuclear-weapons power that has never been fully told. Weapons of Peace (Harper Collins, Rs 295) seeks to fill the gap. Written by India Today Deputy Editor Raj Chengappa, the book takes a close look at India's bomb makers: their visions and their limitations, the bonhomie and the intrigue, the triumphs and the goof ups. It is a journalistic effort based on interviews with over 100 key players and traces India's nuclear drama since Independence.

This extract addresses one of the big questions of the 1998 tests that has so far remained unanswered: just how did India keep preparations for the nuclear tests secret, hoodwinking even the redoubtable CIA which had satellites constantly monitoring Pokhran? The subterfuge adopted by the bomb team -- real cloak and dagger stuff -- was considered as big a triumph as the test itself. And the Indian Army had a major role to play in the effort.

It was one of those still winter mornings. No winds rustled through the thorny shrubs. No eddies of dust progressed to minor storms that sprayed grains of sand like raindrops on a windshield. Even the herds of rutting deer that roamed the range had fallen silent.

So the tyres crunching through the sand and the roar of engines sounded like Godzilla on the march as the convoy of bulldozers and trucks made their way slowly through the desert. Till they came upon a fairly deep well marked by sand bags around its circumference.

A few brisk orders and the dozers started pushing huge mounds of sand into the well. Men with shovels joined the activity and within an hour they had not only sealed the well but also built a mini-mountain of sand around it. They then unwound a huge reel of wrist-thick cables till the black wire snaked all over the place. Satisfied they took out smoke canisters, placed a dozen on the mound they had just built and lit them up.

As the giant grey mushroom clouds billowed into the sky, the 20 odd men looked up expectantly. There was nothing visible to the naked eye but the vast blue expanse. One of the men shook his fist and shouted at the invisible adversary, "Catch us if you can." The others doubled up in laughter. They enjoyed the little game of deception they were playing. At the thought of how the next day spooks from the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) would download images from the satellite and would scratch their heads or whatever wondering what the hell the Indians were up to in the middle of the desert.

When the convoy returned to base, Colonel Gopal Kaushik, commandant of the 58 Engineer Regiment of the Indian Army, wrote in his daily report: "... Jan 1998, Dummy exercise carried out. More tomorrow." The 58 Engineers were specially chosen for the crucial task of maintaining the shafts in which India's nuclear devices would be tested. They were told to take all measures to ensure total secrecy. So effective were the regiment's tactics that when India carried out five nuclear tests in May 1998, it went down as one of the CIA's biggest intelligence failures.

It wasn't as if the agency was ill-equipped. It had kept the test range under constant surveillance for years using billion-dollar spies in the sky -- four powerful satellites -- that could even snap photographs of the wristwatch of an Indian soldier far below and read out the time. On ground the CIA boasted of "humint" or human intelligence, its array of agents and well-greased moles trained to sift through the countless half-truths that swirled through New Delhi's power corridors.

WAKING KUMBHAKARAN
Unlike Pakistan's nuclear test site at the remote Chagai Hills in Baluchistan, there was little India could do to hide its activity at Pokhran. In the semi-desert like conditions, its gently undulating terrain can support only shoulder-high thorny bushes. The bushes are sparse and like the dunes don't provide much cover from a probing satellite. But the 58 Engineers had a year and a half to rehearse. They also had the wealth of experience handed down to them by the dozen-odd regiments that had maintained the shafts. There were occasional bursts of activity that alerted the US to the possibility of tests -- thrice to be precise. In 1982, 1995 and 1997. Each episode taught the Indians what not to do. General V.P. Malik, chief of army staff, says, "Over the years our boys did an excellent job out there in the desert. But so far we could never speak about it."

The subterfuge employed by the Indian Army included using code names or words, many of which were downright undiplomatic. The shaft used to test India's hydrogen bomb, for instance, was known as the White House. As risque was Taj Mahal -- the code name for the shaft in which the atomic bomb was detonated. Imagine the bomb team telling Delhi after the tests: "The White House has collapsed." Or "The Taj Mahal has blown up." They never had to. So why the names? The team's defence: for God's sake, these are just code words and the crazier they sound the easier their recall.

The name of the third shaft, where a sub-kiloton or low-yield test was conducted, was less controversial. It was called Kumbhakaran, after a mythological figure who when disturbed from his deep slumber would fly into a frightening rage. Since the well in which the shaft was sunk had lain dormant for many years the name was appropriate. There were three other shafts designated Navtala (Hindi for nine wells), a name given to the area because it had old, disused drinking-water wells. The team used three of them to sink shafts for the tests and these were called nt1, 2 and 3.

All the six shafts were to be used for the May 1998 tests, but the bomb team only exploded five devices. The device in NT 3 was pulled out and taken back under orders from R. Chidambaram, the Atomic Energy Commission (AEC) chairman, because he felt the team had the results they wanted with just five blasts. As he told the team laconically, "Why waste it?"

'IS SIERRA SERVING WHISKY?'
As part of the drive to maintain secrecy the country's two top scientists, Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) chief A.P.J. Abdul Kalam and Chidambaram, donned army greens whenever they visited Pokhran. The 80-odd scientists and technologists from the Bhabha Atomic Research Centre (BARC) and DRDO who descended on Pokhran to conduct the tests in May were also given army fatigues and false names. With so many code names or words around, the conversation at times was bewildering even to those who were part of the loop. At least one top scientist told the team that he found it easier to do his physics calculations than decipher the code language. Would they please stick to normal words so that he could get his work done? The team demurred.

So in the run for the tests, an army officer manning the operations room was asked by Delhi: "Is Sierra serving whisky in the canteen yet? Has the store arrived?" Decoded that meant: "Has the nuclear device been lowered in the special chamber (canteen) in the shaft called White House (Whisky was its other name) and have the scientists (Sierra) started working on them?"

A little later Delhi was on line with another query: "Has Charlie gone to the zoo? And is Bravo saying prayers? Mike is on." The decoded version: "Has the DRDO team (codenamed Charlie) gone to the deer park (the zoo or the control room)? And has the BARC team (codenamed Bravo) gone to the bunkers where the nuclear devices are being assembled (prayer hall). The dg, military operations (Mike) wants to know the progress."

In the spring of 1997, K. Santhanam and Lieutenant General Inder Varma paid a secret visit to Pokhran. As drdo's pointsman on the nuclear issue, Santhanam, chief adviser on technology, was closely involved in India's plans to weaponise its capability since 1986. He was brought in by V.S. Arunachalam, Kalam's predecessor who played a key role in India's nuclear weapons quest in the '80s. Santhanam's code name was Lieutenant Colonel Srinivas, a sobriquet he had earlier frequently used to pen articles in the lay press.

Lieutenant General Varma, DG, military operations, code named Mike, was the army's key man for all such nuclear operations. His task was to ensure that shafts and facilities at Pokhran were kept in a state of continuous readiness so a test could be done within 10 days of a decision. And to ensure secrecy. His formula: "Keep it simple."

On that visit, the duo told the 58 Engineers that they had to dig two more shafts of an average depth of 50 metres within the next month. And all efforts must be made to shield it from the prying eyes of satellites. The regiment got cracking. Its officers first looked out for a new area to sink the two new wells.

The nine disused wells at Navtala came in handy. These were fairly deep. That meant the team had less to dig. They had noticed that one way satellites could tell new activity was going on was because engineers usually erected a fence around the shaft to keep away both stray cattle and other units not concerned with the digging operations. This time they dispensed with a fence. To dissuade others a sign was put up: "Danger. Mined Area. Keep Out." That worked.

The army regiment got even bolder. They knew the intelligence agencies were like diplomats: if you told them the truth they would never believe you. So instead of taking attention away from the two shafts they were to dig, they virtually shouted for the satellites to look. They pitched tents around one of the shafts and put up a signboard: "Water Position". At the other site they parked four dozers and put up another giant signboard that said "Dozer Cadre Training". On satellite images they stood out like smoke trails in a clear sky. After a flurry of such subterfuge, the regiment waited for reaction. Indian intelligence agencies reported no undue concern in key countries. The army knew its ploy was working. It also realised that one of the reasons why US satellites had detected fresh activity in Pokhran in 1995 was possibly the movement of huge mounds of sands close to the wells. These were to be used to seal the shafts when the devices were lowered. The army figured that western intelligence agencies knew they had started shifting sands by studying how the winds shaped the mounds. If winds were creating new mounds, they would align them in the direction they were blowing. But if dozers were used to shift sand the new mounds contrasted distinctly with other dunes.

Army planners then came up with a solution. Whenever they moved sand they monitored the wind and ensured that the mounds were aligned according to the direction it was blowing. The technique worked and months before the test several dummy runs were done to see if the CIA was perking up.

SHAKTI STHAL
Up ahead from Pokhran is Khetolai, a lazy stone and sand Rajasthani village (population: 1,200) that put up with much of the discomfort caused by India's nuclear preparedness. In the aftermath of India's 1998 nuclear tests, some zealots had repainted its signboard. Above the word Khetolai in smaller letters was painted, "Shakti Sthal" or Place of Strength.

Sohanram Vishnoi, principal of Khetolai's only school, still remembers how violently the ground shook that May morning in 1974 when India exploded its first nuclear device. Then only 15 years old, he was certain his house would collapse. He recalls the local mendicant's explanation for the quake. The sadhu told him gravely that the world rotated around the horn of a cow. Occasionally the cow, tired of carrying the weight of the world, would shift it from one horn tip to the other. The earth would then shake violently as it did that on that summer's day.

In May 1998, Sohanram saw increased activity at the Pokhran range and knew something serious was going on. On the morning of May 11, Major Mohan Kumar Sharma of the 58 Engineers drove up and requested Sohanram to keep the schoolchildren outdoors for a couple of hours. He wouldn't divulge the reason but Sohanram told the stunned officer, "Don't worry, we know you are going to do another test. We are fully behind you."

Khetolai had long since guessed what the CIA hadn't.

 

[pmaitra]

Pokhran II : Why the US missed India's nuclear tests

Pokhran II : Why the US missed India's nuclear tests

Submitted by Mr. S.S. Vasan (May 13, 1998)

WASHINGTON, May 12 - Despite a $27 billion budget and a galaxy of spy satellites, U.S. Intelligence agencies failed to detect India's preparation for Monday's nuclear blast. Why? U.S. officials are blaming it on a leak to The New York Times. Senior Intelligence and military officials tell NBC News that India put its nuclear testing equipment underground in 1996 following a leak to The New York Times that U.S. spy satellites were monitoring that nation's nuclear test site.

"There was a leak that we knew would have a reaction and it did," said one senior intelligence official. "We watched as they put it underground... We warned back then that India now had the capability to test very quickly and predicted that we wouldn't be able to tell."

The Times report ran Dec. 14, 1995, and quoted unnamed government officials as saying satellites had recorded activity in western India that suggested a test might be imminent. No tests occurred and an Indian government spokesman said the Times report was "highly speculative." As a result, said officials, India was able to very "quickly and subtly" make preparations for the test of three nuclear devices Monday.

In fact, National Security Advisor Sandy Berger told reporters the United States still had no confirmation of the test nearly 12 hours after the blast occurred. India calculated the orbits of spy satellites and then moved equipment at times when they believed nothing was overhead. India, several officials noted, has long had a space program and is capable of determining what satellites are in which orbit. "They were in our blind spot," said a senior military official. Moreover, intelligence officials note that the Indian nuclear weapons program is the "most secretive" of all Third World programs. "We know more about the North Korean program than we do about the Indian program."

Satellite Imaging Capability

The reasons, say officials in both Washington and New Delhi, are varied. India has its own satellite-imaging capability, which gives it an understanding of what can and can't be seen from space. It's nuclear program is kept separate from its military, which like many militaries is prone to boasting and leaking. And unlike many programs, India's is not as dependent on outside help. India has a large pool of trained nuclear scientists and electrical engineers and an industrial infrastructure capable of producing key equipment. Much U.S. intelligence on other nations' nuclear programs is derived from electronic eavesdropping on sales of equipment related to weapons development. India has prevented Western intelligence from recruiting spies in India by an aggressive program of counterintelligence that includes surveillance and even attempted recruitment of diplomats and suspected agents. "They are very, very good," said one official. "Remember, this is the same country that produced the scientists who designed the Pentium chips," added an official. "They don't need a lot of outside help. They can do it on their own."

Televised Announcement

CIA officials say the United States did not know anything about the tests until Indian Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee announced the tests on television Monday morning, four hours after they had taken place. The announcement even preceded analysis of the seismic data on the tests. "A lot of people had their hair on fire," said one intelligence official. Intelligence officials say policy officials deserve some of the blame for the tests, noting that intelligence officials have repeatedly warned that India's Hindu Nationalist BJP party was serious about "going nuclear." Bill Richardson, the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, told the Pakistani government last month that he was impressed with BJP "restraint" when he met with party officials prior to his visit to Islamabad. "The U.S. charge d'affaires got his butt chewed by the Pakistanis last night," an official noted, saying that the United States should have known of the Indian plan and that the tests proved there was little restraint in New Delhi.

Clinton Warned

The Pakistani ambassador to the United States said Tuesday that his prime minister, Nawaz Sharif, had warned President Bill Clinton of India's intentions, if not its specific plans. "South Asia has been on the back burner in this administration," said another official. "They have taken Indian restraint for granted and didn't take the BJP threats seriously." As for why India tested the weapons now, the intelligence assessment is that the tests were driven more by domestic political concerns, rather than any action by Pakistan. "The BJP couldn't get budget through by the end of the month without something to help them. If the budget deal fell through, they would have had to call new elections," said a senior intelligence official. "It was done clearly for nationalistic and domestic political concerns."

Meanwhile, U.S. intelligence officials say that in spite of Pakistani claims that it will match India's nuclear tests, there are no indications that Pakistan is preparing for such a test. The United States has moved its satellites and increased electronic surveillance to monitor Pakistan's nuclear test site in the Chagai Hills in the desert of western Pakistan. Officials note that Sharif is scheduled to return to Islamabad quickly from a trip to Kazakhstan. Once home, say officials, the United States expects some decisions. U.S. officials expect that if the Pakistanis don't detonate a nuclear device, they will probably again test the Ghauri missile, which is nuclear-capable. Pakistan first tested the missile, which it bought from North Korea, the first week of April.

Source: http://chemeng.iisc.ernet.in/alumni/nuclear2.html

 

[neo29]

The US never anticipated that a responsible country like India who has nuclear weapons would ever test it. The common understanding among the countries is that any country who has developed nukes and tested them wont test it again as they have achieved their target. Retesting would mean aggression and India was never viewed as an aggressive country.

 

[hit&run]

I read somewhere after Pokhran Nawaj Sharif pulled ISI people. They were astonished and sorry saying to him that every household in Pokhran was having their informers and still were not able to know.

 

[pmaitra]

The US never anticipated that a responsible country like India who has nuclear weapons would ever test it. The common understanding among the countries is that any country who has developed nukes and tested them wont test it again as they have achieved their target. Retesting would mean aggression and India was never viewed as an aggressive country.

You see, the term 'responsible' is rather subjective. India tested one nuke in 1974, but whether that device was merely a proof-of-concept or a full fledged deployable warhead is an open question.

Moreover, the big powers have carried out tests after tests to perfect and miniaturise their nukes so that they can be launched using smaller and smaller missiles without affecting the range. Submarine launched missile systems have especially necessitated this miniaturisation of nukes. Every country needs to take care of its security concerns. To expect India, having 1/6th of the world population, to not test her nukes, in itself is a sign of irresponsibility, naïveté and immaturity.

India, IMHO, is still not seen as an aggressive country. History speaks for itself. The only time when India aggressed was during the Indo-Portuguese War, but then that was for the liberation of Goa, which was/is legitimate Indian territory yearning for freedom from colonial rule.

 

[pallavi]

The article reflects great intelligence ,but above all that ,the diplomacy also played a crucial role.Hat's of to warriors of science and technology who worked relentless despite of life threats,climate,hardships....salute to the people who made india stand pride.your work inspires every corner of this earth...In addition to the great deal of work the way this article presented is also truly good..the words exactly depict the situation and make reader experience the situation..JAI HIND..In this context let me quote few inspiring words..''A powerful weapon is not that which can cause maximum destruction but is that which could make the opponent tremble with fear and stop the war''.... long live peace and prosperity to all..

 

[pallavi]

Behind these works lies great intelligence...diplomacy too played its tough role..hat's off to the warriors of science and technology who worked relentless despite life threats,adverse climate,hardships,and made India stand pride of its hard work...every corner of earth gets inspired by the team's determination to achieve... In addition to it the way this article was presented is appreciable..this article makes the reader experience the situation..JAI HIND.. In this context let me quote few words ..''the most powerful weapon is not that which causes maximum destruction but which could make the counterpart tremble with fear and stop the war"....long live peace and prosperity to all..........

 

[Yumdoot]

In all this the key query to be answered is - How did Indians know exactly when the US satellites pass over Pokharan?

 

[Compersion]

Perhaps next test of nuke will be done together with (acknowledgment) USA and India ... A alliance of scientific minds and capability ... Why we need to hide our intentions and ability from one another ... We mean no harm to one another and are at far away distances where in betweens cross our paths in a prosperous manner ... And we don't need interpreters to understand what we think

But how and why we did Buddha 2 was right and needed ... Declaration of nuclear weapon state according to international norms and customs ... And we convinced USA eventually through talks and understanding

It was inevitable only thing was timing

 

[Yumdoot]

India has invested thousands of year to be what it is.

Americans have invested trillions of dollars to be what they are.

And if India has convinced USA eventually through talks and understanding, that we mean no harm, then it is equally true that Americans have convinced themselves that we do.

For example the conservative view in India still is (and is well voiced by Bharat Karnad types) that India will only make a Pakistan of itself by remaining close to Americans.

Coincidentally, Bharat Karnad in the three of his latest write ups had dwelled/speculated well on these issues and there is hardly any challenge to his position from anywhere.

http://bharatkarnad.com/2015/07/27/paki-darht-up/

bharatkarnad.com/2015/07/21/india-us-n-deal-was-a-deep-n-game-at-play-in-indias-containment/

http://bharatkarnad.com/2015/07/20/hypersonic-on-hold/

And you cannot wish away Bharat Karnad. There are others journalists who have voiced similar opinions. And then there are knowledgeable commentators in the Social Media who too have voiced similar views.

In fact even the likes of Col. Ajai Shukla who at one point used to hawk American wares also notice that Indian-American relations are not going anywhere. You can search for his DTTI related reports.

What have we really gained from the Americans in the past that may form a basis for bearing expectations from the future. If we have to deal with China then we have to do it on our own strength.

Forget Indian gains. What has Israel gained. From being a country for the troubled jews it is simply a forward base for American interests today. And Israelites remain ever fearful that their interests would be overlooked by the Americans. Net result Israelites try to meddle in US internal affairs and other parties then come into US internal affairs to counter that. Making two khichdi countries that flip flop on what they say and what they do. Discrediting both themselves and their prime partners. Who would want such a relationship? The best the Israel has got is to have the Muslims turn on each other. But is that the sum total of what India wants? I suspect not.

 

[jackprince]

Perhaps next test of nuke will be done together with (acknowledgment) USA and India ... A alliance of scientific minds and capability ... Why we need to hide our intentions and ability from one another ... We mean no harm to one another and are at far away distances where in betweens cross our paths in a prosperous manner ... And we don't need interpreters to understand what we think

But how and why we did Buddha 2 was right and needed ... Declaration of nuclear weapon state according to international norms and customs ... And we convinced USA eventually through talks and understanding

It was inevitable only thing was timing

You do not understand the USA. The USA now, after the WW2 victory, has gotten a taste of power and can never relinquish the hegemony it has built. Just look around, and worldwide you wouldn't be able to find a single nation USA treats as equal. Even the common people of USA is high on the notion of superiority over everyone in the world. Remember the the US diplomat Wayne May and his wife, who were expelled from India? Remember their idea and mentality towards India and Indians. USA, is what its people has become, and USA will be what its people will be. The power in USA lies with the people who cannot but think themselves to be big brother of everyone, and that is not going to change anytime soon unless there's a huge set back for USA, not only economically, but militarily too.

Until USA eats the humble pie, it will not be a partner of equality in deed with India, whatever the superficial talks might be presented for benefit of laymen. It will try to manipulate India for its own benefit, if needed at the cost of India.

The change of stance vis a vis India by US leadership was not an overnight thing, and neither it happened because USA finally got convinced that India doesn't mean any harm to USA. It was because USA wants to counter the rise of China in Asia, and there's no other possible power but India to do so at IOR. It also needed to break India out of the close embrace of Russia, which it did to an extent. Did USA do something beyond the call of its own need? No. Does India need USA friendship? Not to the extent you are asking.

USA simply cannot be trusted.

 

[Compersion]

You do not understand the USA. The USA now, after the WW2 victory, has gotten a taste of power and can never relinquish the hegemony it has built. Just look around, and worldwide you wouldn't be able to find a single nation USA treats as equal. Even the common people of USA is high on the notion of superiority over everyone in the world. Remember the the US diplomat Wayne May and his wife, who were expelled from India? Remember their idea and mentality towards India and Indians. USA, is what its people has become, and USA will be what its people will be. The power in USA lies with the people who cannot but think themselves to be big brother of everyone, and that is not going to change anytime soon unless there's a huge set back for USA, not only economically, but militarily too.

Until USA eats the humble pie, it will not be a partner of equality in deed with India, whatever the superficial talks might be presented for benefit of laymen. It will try to manipulate India for its own benefit, if needed at the cost of India.

The change of stance vis a vis India by US leadership was not an overnight thing, and neither it happened because USA finally got convinced that India doesn't mean any harm to USA. It was because USA wants to counter the rise of China in Asia, and there's no other possible power but India to do so at IOR. It also needed to break India out of the close embrace of Russia, which it did to an extent. Did USA do something beyond the call of its own need? No. Does India need USA friendship? Not to the extent you are asking.

USA simply cannot be trusted.

"If we are overtly anchored on the past, then we are not going to see the opportunities and possibilities in this relationship... At the same time, if we overstep the progress and raise expectations then I think we would fall short in many respect and it creates its own backlash," he said.

Both the countries need to be careful in terms of progressing the ties and positioning it, he added.

He said there are some real issues between India and US. "There is a conceptional problem that we still have to overcome and it is a fact that the post second second World War political order is still very much alive," he said.

The top diplomat said because it is alive in the people's mind, it is expressed in terms of deference to some powers, constraints on some and hostility to others, and "sometimes companionship to ideologies which may not be palatable to average American or that matter Indian citizens".

http://m.economictimes.com/news/pol...cretary-s-jaishankar/articleshow/46582439.cms

http://wap.business-standard.com/ar...acific-it-s-helpful-india-115031600901_1.html

I am aware of the realties and also the geography and demography of the relationship past , today , future and have not advocated anything that is extreme

A ICBM of 10,000 km + by india is a case study in USA and India relations for the elementary. why we don't test - are we waiting for something. Why the slyness. Is it lack of something. Are we afraid of being labelled to be enemy of someone like USA. Our distance away from one another is a obstacle and also blessing. Our testing of ICBM of 10,000 + reminds me of Buddha 2 ... We have to declare it we have capability and we need it to not only protect us but others (who might be far away) ... Its really no harm to USA ... our role is not regional ... And long distance ought to brings us closer ... Because it makes the relationship clear ... With nukes and 10,000 km + ICBM its purpose is not to harm and endanger USA ... (Even though by definition it is possible but we are not alone)

If we were to test a ICBM 10,000 km + I would like to believe we won't hide it and it will be announced in advance to a country like USA because they cannot stop us and also we would like them to know in advance - I think we did something along this thinking with a Agni launch we told USA we will do it and did it. I feel if we are going to nuke test again for example if north Koreans do so and other nations do so the Americans will know we are and we have every right and USA need not feel we are damaging the relationship.

 

[Compersion]

The talks we had with USA after nuke test was something akin to "please don't think we are uneducated who don't understand international customs and please don't think we did not known what we were doing ... This was possible only because it was India"

http://www.canindia.com/2015/07/this-was-possible-only-because-it-was-india/ (article also mentions moot points if USA thinks we wanted to make them look bad). Also we mist not forget USA was not able to prevent Pakistan testing and north Korea testing ... And they did it openly (and made usa look bad). Is using word fool too mild what north Korea and Pakistan did ... To usa

Why we need to hide and be clandesent and be risk averse ... Going ahead with USA

 

[jackprince]

The talks we had with USA after nuke test was something akin to "please don't think we are uneducated who don't understand international customs and please don't think we did not known what we were doing ... This was possible only because it was India"

http://www.canindia.com/2015/07/this-was-possible-only-because-it-was-india/ (article also mentions moot points if USA thinks we wanted to make them look bad). Also we mist not forget USA was not able to prevent Pakistan testing and north Korea testing ... And they did it openly (and made usa look bad). Is using word fool too mild what north Korea and Pakistan did ... To usa

Why we need to hide and be clandesent and be risk averse ... Going ahead with USA

hah! We said please or pretty please? How much did India grovel? Even UPA wouldn't have grovelled like you presented here. Tells a lot about your thinking.

Now see a little interview with an American presidential candidate and Republican Governor. Read it and see what this chap actually thinks. And then refer my previous post and see whether I was correct or not. If it can come from a coconut or a Jindian, just what does a white supremist, who are generally in power in USA thinks?
http://www.moneycontrol.com/news/cu...e-for-us-leadership-bobby-jindal_1852481.html

Thrashing the foreign policy of the Obama Administration, Republican presidential aspirant Bobby Jindal has sought steps by the US to take the mantel of global leadership, saying even non-aligned nations like India and Vietnam are desperate and hungry for American leadership.

"We would work not only with our allies, like Japan and South Korea and Taiwan. We'd work with non-aligned countries like India and Vietnam that are desperate and hungry for American leadership," 44-year-old Jindal said.

Bobby Jindal, who last month announced his bid for the 2016 presidential elections, was responding to questions on addressing the challenges being posed by the Islamic State militant group in the Middle East.

"You got a president who...won't even name the enemy. You've got leaders in the Middle East that understand the threat of radical Islamic terrorism. We've got a president who won't even say those words!...He would rather criticize America. He would rather declare war on trans fats and junk food. He would rather declare war on the Crusades and medieval Christians...," Jindal alleged.

Obama, he said, needs to tell clerics and Islamic leaders that they need to explicitly recognise the religious rights of others with different beliefs.

"Going back to foreign policy. We stand with Israel. I would make it clear to Iran, I don't care what deal this president signs, I'm not abiding by any deal unless it truly gets rid of their enrichment capacity, their enriched uranium, anytime, anywhere inspections," he said.

"This president leads from behind, when he criticises America, he doesn't embrace American exceptionalism the way that you and I do. We understand that America is different, America is special. We are unique, and we're unabashed to say so. It's not arrogance to say that we are a special country and that we are going to protect our interests and our allies. And we're going to back that up," he said.

Responding to a question, Jindal acknowledged that a recent story on him by a leading US daily was racial.

"I was offended by 'The Washington Post' saying as an Indian-American that you had abandoned the Indian-American community, and something to that effect. I felt that was a racial comment," the interviewer asked. "Absolutely. Look, they can't fathom the fact that you can be conservative and smart or that you can look a different way and still be a Christian," Jindal said. "We don't judge people by their backgrounds. We judge people based on ideas, accomplishments. Look, the Democrats are about to crown Hillary Clinton right in an open contest. Let's compare our records. Let's compare our policies," he added.

Read more at: http://www.moneycontrol.com/news/cu...by-jindal_1852481.html?utm_source=ref_article

 

[Compersion]

hah! We said please or pretty please? How much did India grovel? Even UPA wouldn't have grovelled like you presented here. Tells a lot about your thinking.

Now see a little interview with an American presidential candidate and Republican Governor. Read it and see what this chap actually thinks. And then refer my previous post and see whether I was correct or not. If it can come from a coconut or a Jindian, just what does a white supremist, who are generally in power in USA thinks?
http://www.moneycontrol.com/news/cu...e-for-us-leadership-bobby-jindal_1852481.html

Never would i and have i used anything with any reference to india doing any type of grovelling ... Please read the articles i have posted they are much better in value to a Boddy Jindal quote(s). You use reference to a grouping and power center in America i am not a expert on such classifications (but i would think there is not one single group like you mention) and like America has its own interests - we do also have our own interests. We are also not a small player.

There is no need to go overboard and too fast. There is a lot of complexity and we have a anchor from the past. But we have to look to the future. We cannot be ignorant and close our eyes also.

I think you are misunderstanding ... perhaps it is the way i explain and it is a little systematic. Also i like to link through a long flow of conversation the involves others and not only myself. Look at the quotes and also the process that is occurring. Why do we need to hide and be clandestine and be risk averse ... Going ahead with USA. Have you seen the way the FS talks (it is not a regional thinking) ... it is a fantastic and it is the opposite of grovel if you understand !!

Look at what Pakistan and North Korea did and they did it openly (and made usa look bad and foolish). Where was international pressure. The way they hoodwinking the Americans was much worse. Is using word fool too mild what north Korea and Pakistan did ... To usa and many others.

If Pakistan said they tested because of us -> it takes 1 day to make a bomb !! We hid our testing but we had capability since 1970s and much earlier if you look at our history ... they not only hid and lied to the Americans about nuclear development but gave it to Libya, North Korea and others and who knows what is the actual status of their nuclear programme. Many will say the Americans knew what the Pakis were doing ... it might have substance but do they want Pakistan to be a nuclear weapon state ... ?? it is a funny idea to have missiles and aim only 180 degrees to the east. Is there a written document that cannot be terminated with Pakistan signature where it says they will not able to use Nuclear weapon against Israel, USA, and even PRC !! what about Iran and they will show their nuclear agreement to Pakistan and ask why !!

If North Korea said they tested and they did not break any international law -> how did they learn and test in first place with NPT signature and also sudden development!! Where was USA and others. What fools ...

But people like to look at the way we hid from CIA to test. The reason why we hid from CIA because it would have brought international pressure but we would have tested anyway but we were in a hurry it was about TIME ... it is already clear we have knew and understood what we were doing and did it according to international customs and laws and ... This was possible only because it was India. (The talks among many things with USA included not only to show we did not fool them but also we are not a Pakistan and North Korea which USA knows and understands (and many others important peripherals)).

Would it have been different if we had talked to USA first and convinced them why we would test ... not at all. We have to be realistic and we all know how NDA wanted to test earlier (variables that include time). Even N.Rao wanted to test. Did our relations with USA become worse after testing ?? Did we break any international laws ?? Did we do any nuclear proliferation to others ??

The standard and process that we did will be extremely difficult for others to follow.

North Korea and Pakistan ... How the CIA was Fooled by them !!

 

[roma]

im against deceiving ourselves

2 years before the pokhran 2 tests, the usa picked up activity in the testing area
and i remember hearing a state department official being interviewed on the bbc and he was asked if india was about to do a nuke test

he basically replied that he hoped not

india may have fooled th world as to the timing but not really as to the intention

i also post this to highlight the use of satellites in being able to pick up such activity and india should use that to detect similar activity in packland or ccpland .