Wuhan Coronavirus Thread

Is coronavirus a biological warfare agent released by China?

  • yes

    Votes: 144 90.0%
  • no

    Votes: 16 10.0%

  • Total voters
    160

temujin

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sounds utter nonsense frankly. the good doc there sounds anti-vax with some axe to grind.
The interview was in relation to an abstract published in Circulation, the leading journal in cardiovascular medicine (impact factor=30) which appears to show a significant increase in coronary endothelial inflammation following mRNA jabs with a corresponding 2.5 fold increase in the risk of acute coronary events that was sustained during the 2 1/2 month study period. I don't know if Dr Malhotra has an agenda but he is a Professor in Evidence Based Medicine although for the sake of balance it has to be pointed out that this is not the first time he has expressed caution around vaccines. Both he and Maajid claim they are double vaxxed however.

Dr Malhotra also mentions a study that apparently corroborates the circulation findings through imaging although it was allegedly pulled due to concerns around funding. Personally, I feel such studies need to be considered with a fresh pair of eyes since it's clear vaccines (certainly the mRNA ones) don't significantly reduce infection or transmission so the rationale for their mandatory use in under 35s should be reexamined.
 

here2where

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.... Personally, I feel such studies need to be considered with a fresh pair of eyes since it's clear vaccines (certainly the mRNA ones) don't significantly reduce infection or transmission so the rationale for their mandatory use in under 35s should be reexamined.
Current accepted understanding is that vaccination prevents serious illness and research seem to indicate protection against breakthrough infection and levels of transmission decrease with time (pro-booster argument?)

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.09.28.21264260v2.full

Best bet obviously is to continue being ultra-cautious even after vaccination.

 

temujin

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Current accepted understanding is that vaccination prevents serious illness and research seem to indicate protection against breakthrough infection and levels of transmission decrease with time (pro-booster argument?)

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.09.28.21264260v2.full

Best bet obviously is to continue being ultra-cautious even after vaccination.

Everyone accepts that vaccination reduces severe illness and death in older populations and nobody is advocating a blanket ban on vaccines. What I am against is the rush to vaccinate all age groups regardless of their risk from CoviD itself when the enduring harm from vaccinations are not yet fully known. Where the benefits can be regarded as outweighing vaccine related risks in over 35-40s, the equation becomes more finely balanced in anyone younger. I recall checking the ONS spreadsheet on CoviD deaths in the UK back in the summer of this year to work out how many under 30s of either gender were among the 135k odd dead at that point- the figure was roughly 350 in total since the onset of the pandemic. I'm sure many young people would consider this a significant enough risk to get vaccinated but there would be many others who would prefer to catch CoviD rather than run the (minimal) risk of a cardiac event from vaccination.

At the moment there is talk of vaccine mandates across Europe which I think is not backed by evidence and, by denying people the choice on what to put in their bodies, leads down a dangerous path to totalitarianism. It's even more absurd when you consider the vast majority of Omicron cases outside SA have been found among those who have been fully vaccinated so forcing everyone to get jabbed is probably pointless anyway
 

srevster

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Assholes, get vaccinated. The new variant can only form if the virus stays in one body for a long time. Omicron came from someone who had it for a long time. Vaccines prevent hospitalization not transmission!

don’t spread bullshit and fear. Vaccine teaches your body how to create antibodies to fight Covid reducing the duration and severity of the infection. Mutations and variants occur when the virus has a chance to stay in one body for a long time and mutate. Omicron came from someone who refused to get vaxxed and the virusreproduced several times.
 

here2where

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Everyone accepts that vaccination reduces severe illness and death in older populations and nobody is advocating a blanket ban on vaccines. What I am against is the rush to vaccinate all age groups regardless of their risk from CoviD itself when the enduring harm from vaccinations are not yet fully known. Where the benefits can be regarded as outweighing vaccine related risks in over 35-40s, the equation becomes more finely balanced in anyone younger. I recall checking the ONS spreadsheet on CoviD deaths in the UK back in the summer of this year to work out how many under 30s of either gender were among the 135k odd dead at that point- the figure was roughly 350 in total since the onset of the pandemic. I'm sure many young people would consider this a significant enough risk to get vaccinated but there would be many others who would prefer to catch CoviD rather than run the (minimal) risk of a cardiac event from vaccination.

At the moment there is talk of vaccine mandates across Europe which I think is not backed by evidence and, by denying people the choice on what to put in their bodies, leads down a dangerous path to totalitarianism. It's even more absurd when you consider the vast majority of Omicron cases outside SA have been found among those who have been fully vaccinated so forcing everyone to get jabbed is probably pointless anyway
is this cardiac scare only for mRNA based vaccines? there was a lot of hullabaloo around covishield also earlier related to cardiac arrests etc.

is there any such risk for inactivated vaccines like covaxin?
 

temujin

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is this cardiac scare only for mRNA based vaccines? there was a lot of hullabaloo around covishield also earlier related to cardiac arrests etc.

is there any such risk for inactivated vaccines like covaxin?
Appears to be confined to mRNA vaccines at this stage. The issue around Covishield was around thrombotic events (which also occur in CoviD) but that all seemed to go away once the 35 USD per shot Pfizer firmly supplanted the 2 USD Covishield as the vaccine of choice across rich nations. This was followed by a comprehensive review published around 6 months ago that showed the risk of clots with Covishield and mRNA vaccines was broadly similar.

There have been reports of myocarditis with Pfizer from the beginning- in fact I think some Scandinavian countries had stopped giving it to under 20s due to these concerns- but this paper is the first in my knowledge that casts light on the potential pathophysiology of this adverse effect.

As an inactivated virus vaccine, I think Covaxin may be the safest of the lot for younger people
 

Shashank Nayak

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Shashank Nayak

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Appears to be confined to mRNA vaccines at this stage. The issue around Covishield was around thrombotic events (which also occur in CoviD) but that all seemed to go away once the 35 USD per shot Pfizer firmly supplanted the 2 USD Covishield as the vaccine of choice across rich nations. This was followed by a comprehensive review published around 6 months ago that showed the risk of clots with Covishield and mRNA vaccines was broadly similar.

There have been reports of myocarditis with Pfizer from the beginning- in fact I think some Scandinavian countries had stopped giving it to under 20s due to these concerns- but this paper is the first in my knowledge that casts light on the potential pathophysiology of this adverse effect.

As an inactivated virus vaccine, I think Covaxin may be the safest of the lot for younger people
Especially with children it would be better to go with an old platform like Covaxin
 

Hijibiji

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The interview was in relation to an abstract published in Circulation, the leading journal in cardiovascular medicine (impact factor=30) which appears to show a significant increase in coronary endothelial inflammation following mRNA jabs with a corresponding 2.5 fold increase in the risk of acute coronary events that was sustained during the 2 1/2 month study period. I don't know if Dr Malhotra has an agenda but he is a Professor in Evidence Based Medicine although for the sake of balance it has to be pointed out that this is not the first time he has expressed caution around vaccines. Both he and Maajid claim they are double vaxxed however.

Dr Malhotra also mentions a study that apparently corroborates the circulation findings through imaging although it was allegedly pulled due to concerns around funding. Personally, I feel such studies need to be considered with a fresh pair of eyes since it's clear vaccines (certainly the mRNA ones) don't significantly reduce infection or transmission so the rationale for their mandatory use in under 35s should be reexamined.

Welcome to the minority population who still have fresh eyes and who don't say, "Assholes, get vakshed"! This minority group still remains "scientific" in its outlook. The good thing about this minority group is that they are not bound to any country, ethnicity or political leanings. They are just scientific :)

Whatever you are saying now with very proper decorum backed by your personal experience was also said by a profile named "DonkeysAss" a little ago... I don't know may be 10 pages or 20 pages or 50 pages back. He was banned!

People NOT only on this forum BUT also all over the world refused to even listen (not accept) what scientists like Rober Malone or Luc Montagnier had to say. That was expected because people like to listen to their favourite media and guess what, media tells what makes it profitable. So....... we are where we are!

It's nice to see "here2where" at least asked some questions....
Very nice. Everybody should ask questions and verify / search on their own! If that's NOT the case, education might have ruined the scientific nature!

Now here is thing that majority of people say and that confounds me. These people are highly educated and they work in Govt/ private labs, so we can't actually call them "coolie" either. LOL. These fellows jump at the speed of light to say that the vakshed folks are the saviours of humanity and the un-vakshed fellows are the root-cause of spread and mutation of the vairus. I wonder whether these fellows even read biology books when they were 16 years old. The basics of vakshination and mutation tell otherwise. At least that's what I learnt when I was young. And that's what Robert malone or Luc Montagnier say!

These majority people don't even realize that none in India is anti-vaksh. We all took vaksh when we were young. They are so deep in their wisdom that they never questioned themselves why some fellows (the 15% minority) did not take this new mRNA tech vaksh. So, this is the power of the media and the majority driven by the media.

As far as I am concerned, (THE PERSONAL EXPERIENCE STARTS HERE- WARNING- NO THEORY, NO MEDiA, NO POLITICS, ONLY PURE EXPERIENCE):

1) I know a guy who did NOT take the vaksh. He went everywhere to mingle with people. All whom he mingles with are doing fine. Two were down with the vairus for 15 days but they recovered (These two were small business owners).

2) I know another "highly educated" guy who is highly main-stream and who was highly pro-vaksh. Once I engaged him in a little discussion (after all, he is a friend!). So, he came like Shaheen afridi in last T-20 WC and claimed that the non-vakshed fellows are spreading the diasease. Then i played with him wearing kid-gloves for 30 minutes and now he says that he would not give any vaksh (ie emerging-tech new-era vaksh) to his child :) The good thing is that I never told him anything opposing him, I just asked him questions and he did NOT have answers :) Another thing is that since he had decent IQ, he could actually listen to the questions and process them! LOL.

Finally, please, don't make uneducated claims that new variants are coming due to unvakshed fellows. Kindly use your brain. If the original vairus comes in an unvakshed body, it will find NO reason to mutate. BUT if the same vairus comes in vakshed body, it MUST mutate to survive. THIS IS CALLED "Basics or Fundamentals" :)

BOTTOM-LINE:
I had no intention to come and gate-crash into the main-stream party here BUT when I saw temujin is writing based on his own experience backed by his own findings, I felt compelled to write for tha sake of science.

To @LurkerBaba :
Kindly allow the non-mainstream fellows to explain what they think/ do/ see / experience etc. We know we are the vairus here but if we are NOT here, YOUR whole community loses the "genetic diversity". Please educate your trigger-happy admins too, they work like danda-wallah traffic police on the streets when it comes to any different views on this thread! I don't blame them because most of them lack the education to process things in a fast moving technology (ie Genetic Engineering)!
 
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srevster

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Welcome to the minority population who still have fresh eyes and who don't say, "Assholes, get vakshed"! This minority group still remains "scientific" in its outlook. The good thing about this minority group is that they are not bound to any country, ethnicity or political leanings. They are just scientific :)

Whatever you are saying now with very proper decorum backed by your personal experience was also said by a profile named "DonkeysAss" a little ago... I don't know may be 10 pages or 20 pages or 50 pages back. He was banned!

People NOT only on this forum BUT also all over the world refused to even listen (not accept) what scientists like Rober Malone or Luc Montagnier had to say. That was expected because people like to listen to their favourite media and guess what, media tells what makes it profitable. So....... we are where we are!

It's nice to see "here2where" at least asked some questions....
Very nice. Everybody should ask questions and verify / search on their own! If that's NOT the case, education might have ruined the scientific nature!

Now here is thing that majority of people say and that confounds me. These people are highly educated and they work in Govt/ private labs, so we can't actually call them "coolie" either. LOL. These fellows jump at the speed of light to say that the vakshed folks are the saviours of humanity and the un-vakshed fellows are the root-cause of spread and mutation of the vairus. I wonder whether these fellows even read biology books when they were 16 years old. The basics of vakshination and mutation tell otherwise. At least that's what I learnt when I was young. And that's what Robert malone or Luc Montagnier say!

These majority people don't even realize that none in India is anti-vaksh. We all took vaksh when we were young. They are so deep in their wisdom that they never questioned themselves why some fellows (the 15% minority) did not take this new mRNA tech vaksh. So, this is the power of the media and the majority driven by the media.

As far as I am concerned, (THE PERSONAL EXPERIENCE STARTS HERE- WARNING- NO THEORY, NO MEDiA, NO POLITICS, ONLY PURE EXPERIENCE):

1) I know a guy who did NOT take the vaksh. He went everywhere to mingle with people. All whom he mingles with are doing fine. Two were down with the vairus for 15 days but they recovered (These two were small business owners).

2) I know another "highly educated" guy who is highly main-stream and who was highly pro-vaksh. Once I engaged him in a little discussion (after all, he is a friend!). So, he came like Shaheen afridi in last T-20 WC and claimed that the non-vakshed fellows are spreading the diasease. Then i played with him wearing kid-gloves for 30 minutes and now he says that he would not give any vaksh (ie emerging-tech new-era vaksh) to his child :) The good thing is that I never told him anything opposing him, I just asked him questions and he did NOT have answers :) Another thing is that since he had decent IQ, he could actually listen to the questions and process them! LOL.

Finally, please, don't make uneducated claims that new variants are coming due to unvakshed fellows. Kindly use your brain. If the original vairus comes in an unvakshed body, it will find NO reason to mutate. BUT if the same vairus comes in vakshed body, it MUST mutate to survive. THIS IS CALLED "Basics or Fundamentals" :)

BOTTOM-LINE:
I had no intention to come and gate-crash into the main-stream party here BUT when I saw temujin is writing based on his own experience backed by his own findings, I felt compelled to write for tha sake of science.

To @LurkerBaba :
Kindly allow the non-mainstream fellows to explain what they think/ do/ see / experience etc. We know we are the vairus here but if we are NOT here, YOUR whole community loses the "genetic diversity". Please educate your trigger-happy admins too, they work like danda-wallah traffic police on the streets when it comes to any different views on this thread! I don't blame them because most of them lack the education to process things in a fast moving technology (ie Genetic Engineering)!
The longer a virus reproduces the longer it has to mutate. If the body has Covid for two months it produces an exponential more mutations because the body has to overcome the virus. People who are vaxxed fight off the virus faster than people who aren’t. Do you agree or disagree with this. If you agree vaccines mean faster recovery, then it means less mutations. Mutations happen when the virus reproduces. Reproduction happens when the virus has a chance at fighting the body. The mutations will form when there is error in the replication of the virus. So the longer the fight between the body and the virus; the more it will mutate.

dhanyawad, please learn some bio before making pompous statements
 

Hijibiji

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@Hijibiji

I don't think neither your biology teacher nor the best biologist/virologist will not subscribe to the above statement.
Baba, I am NOT writing answers to questions in a school exam here, so I don't make the writing water-tight.

See Baba, we know about probability. So now let's take out both my biology teacher and the best virologist from the conversation for next 10 minutes. It's just YOU and me, OK-K?

So, thanks a LOT for your revie comment. Please review again:
"If the original vairus comes in an unvakshed body, the chances are significantly less that it will find reasons to mutate than the chances of a bhairus mutating in a vakshed-body".

And Finally, neither my science teacher NOR the best virologists claim to know why mutation happens!! Mutation is called the exception to the rules of evolution when mutation happens without any change in the environment! Scientists can't explain that.
 

Hijibiji

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The longer a virus reproduces the longer it has to mutate. If the body has Covid for two months it produces an exponential more mutations because the body has to overcome the virus. People who are vaxxed fight off the virus faster than people who aren’t. Do you agree or disagree with this. If you agree vaccines mean faster recovery, then it means less mutations. Mutations happen when the virus reproduces. Reproduction happens when the virus has a chance at fighting the body. The mutations will form when there is error in the replication of the virus. So the longer the fight between the body and the virus; the more it will mutate.

dhanyawad, please learn some bio before making pompous statements

I won't engage in any discussion with YOU here. I will only interact with people whose usernames/ display names are well-known or familiar from my previous experience here. Please don't take it personally, I just don't have the time. HTH.
 

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