Will Tejas MK2 be equivalant to Rafale?

[Pulkit]

After that SAAB article I was also wondering about another hypothetical comparison between Rafale and Tejas MK2....

Its hypothetical and there are not many basis to make that comparison but still tried to compare :


Just if all the upgradadtion modification required for MK2 occur successfully then Tejas MK2 will give a good fight to Rafale...
Though cannot say which one will be superior or will have an edge over the other...
Not hoping for a miracle here....


I dont understand how vital this could be but:

Dry thrust and thrust after burner is more in Tejasmk1.
Tejas mk2 WILL HAVE MORE FUEL capability more than 2500 (No Sources as the length will be increased and the fuselage will be carrying more fuel do provide some information on this) Rafale has 4700kg as capacity.

Speed we already know of MK1 is 1.6 and tejas is 1.8 .
Weaponary on tejas is more suitable to us than on rafale as many of the domestic arms are used.
though with extra fuel even the combat radius and range will also be improved.
But till the time anything is tabled these will remain just expectations and assumptions.

Please do add to it.


Airframe Modifications

Minor modifications are being made to the LCA Tejas Mk1 airframe to accommodate the slightly larger engine. The fuselage has been extended by 500mm.

--------------------------

The dimensions of Mk2 will be as follows

Span : 8.20m
Length: 13.70m
Height: 4.52m

--------------------------

Upgrades

Besides a more powerful engine, Tejas Mk-2 will feature other improvements. Here is the complete list of planned upgrades

1 Higher Thrust Engine
2 Structural Weight Reduction
3 Aerodynamic Improvements
4 Upgrade of Flight Control Computer
5 Electronic Warfare Suite
6 Avionics Upgrade
7 In flight refuelling retractable probe
8 On board oxygen generation system
9 Increased fuel capacity.

--------------------------

Features

1 Supersonic at all altitudes
2 15km service altitude
3 Tailless compound delta wing
4 Composite structure
5 Improved performance
6 Improved maintainability
7 Improved Survivability
8 Digital Fly by wire
9 Fuel dump system
10 Multi mode radar AESA

all these over the capability of todays Tejas MK1
General characteristics

Crew: 1
Length: 13.20 m (43 ft 4 in)
Wingspan: 8.20 m (26 ft 11 in)
Height: 4.40 m (14 ft 9 in)
Wing area: 38.4 m² (413 ft²)
Empty weight: 6,500 kg (14,300 lb)
Loaded weight: 9,500 kg[127] (20,944 lb)
Max. takeoff weight: 13,200 kg[127] (29,100 lb)
Powerplant: 1 × F404-GE-IN20 turbofan
Dry thrust: 53.9 kN[130] (12,100 lbf)
Thrust with afterburner: 89.8 kN (20,200 lbf[131])
Internal fuel capacity: 2,458 kg
External fuel capacity: 2 x 1,200-litre drop tank at inboard, 1 x 725-litre drop tank under fuselage
Performance

Maximum speed: Tested up to Mach 1.6 for IOC-I (1,350 km/h) (CAS) at high altitude,[127] theoretically capable of Mach 1.8[132]
Range: 850 km[133] (459 nmi, 528 mi)
Combat radius: 1300 km[133] (162 nmi, 186 mi)
Ferry range: 3,000 km, Theoretically capable of 3,500 km[82] (1,840 mi)
Service ceiling: 15,000 m[127] (49,200 ft, possibility of being raised to 60,000 ft)
Wing loading: 247 kg/m² (50.7 lb/ft²)
Thrust/weight: 1.07[127]

g-limits: +8/−3.5 g[127] (to be raised to +10/-3.5 g)
Armament


Guns: 1× mounted 23 mm twin-barrel GSh-23 cannon with 220 rounds of ammunition.
Hardpoints: 8 total: 1× beneath the port-side intake trunk for targeting pods, 6× under-wing, and 1× under-fuselage with a capacity of 4,200 kg external fuel and ordnance
Missiles:


HAL Tejas carrying R-73 missile and Drop Tank.
Tejas weapon display Aero India 2011Air-to-air missiles:
Python 5
Derby[137]
Astra
Vympel R-77
Vympel R-73
Air-to-surface missiles:
Kh-59ME (TV guided standoff Missile)
Kh-59MK (Laser guided standoff Missile)
Anti-ship missiles
Kh-35
Kh-31
Bombs:
[134]
KAB-1500L laser-guided bombs
GBU-16 Paveway II
FAB-250
ODAB-500PM fuel-air explosives
ZAB-250/350 incendiary bombs
BetAB-500Shp powered concrete-piercing bombs
FAB-500T dumb bombs
OFAB-250-270 dumb bombs
OFAB-100-120 dumb bombs
RBK-500 cluster bomb stake
Others:[134]
S-8 rocket pods
Bofors 135 mm rocket
Drop tanks for ferry flight/extended range/loitering time.
LITENING targeting pod

For Rafale

General characteristics

Crew: 1–2
Length: 15.27 m (50.1 ft)
Wingspan: 10.80 m (35.4 ft)
Height: 5.34 m (17.5 ft)
Wing area: 45.7 m² (492 ft²)
Empty weight:

C: 9,500 kilograms (20,900 lb)
B: 9,770 kilograms (21,540 lb)
M: 10,196 kilograms (22,480 lb[193])
Loaded weight: 14,016 kg (30,900 lb)
Max. takeoff weight: 24,500 kg (C/D), 22,200 kg (M) (54,000 lb)
Powerplant: 2 × Snecma M88-2 turbofans
Dry thrust: 50.04 kN (11,250 lbf) each
Thrust with afterburner: 75.62 kN (17,000 lbf) each
Fuel capacity: 4,700 kg (10,360 lb) internal
Performance

Maximum speed:

High altitude: Mach 1.8 (1,912 km/h, 1,032 knots)
Low altitude: Mach 1.1 (1,390 km/h, 750 knots)
Range: 3,700+ km (2,000+ nmi) with 3 drop tanks
Combat radius: 1,852+ km (1,000+ nmi) on penetration mission
Service ceiling: 15,235 m (50,000 ft)
Rate of climb: 304.8+ m/s (60,000+ ft/min)
Wing loading: 306 kg/m² (62.8 lb/ft²)
Thrust/weight: 0.988 (100% fuel, 2 EM A2A missile, 2 IR A2A missile) version M

Maximum g-load: +9/–3.2 g
Armament


Guns: 1× 30 mm (1.18 in) GIAT 30/M791 autocannon with 125 rounds
Hardpoints: 14 for Air Force versions (Rafale B/C), 13 for Navy version (Rafale M) with a capacity of 9,500 kg (20,900 lb) external fuel and ordnance and provisions to carry combinations of:
Missiles:

MBDA MICA IR or EM or Magic II and
MBDA Meteor air-to-air missiles in the future
Air-to-ground:
MBDA Apache or
Storm Shadow-SCALP EG or
AASM-Hammer or
GBU-12 Paveway II or GBU-49 Enhanced Paveway II
GBU-24 Paveway III
AS-30L
Air-to-surface:
AM 39-Exocet
Deterrence:
ASMP-A nuclear missile
Other:

Thales Damocles targeting pod
AREOS (Airborne Recce Observation System)reconnaissance pod[195]
up to 5 drop tanks
Buddy-buddy refuelling pod

 

[dealwithit]

Rafale will have the advantage as it can change its role very easily

 

[Srinivas_K]

Comparison between a two engine aircraft and single engine aircraft is not apt.

Rafale have high thrust,more maneuverable, carry more load and equipped with better electronics and Radar.

 

[Pulkit]

MK2 will have almost all the features even a few advanced features and technology and even better range of weaponary as per our needs .... with the increased size it will not be LCA anymore.... it is likely to fall under category of MMRCA .... Based on it we can hope that it will be more than a interceptor....
Which advantage are you talking about?

Rafale will have the advantage as it can change its role very easily

 

[Pulkit]

Comparison between a two engine aircraft and single engine aircraft is not apt.

Rafale have high thrust,more maneuverable, carry more load and equipped with better electronics and Radar.

AGreeing to the fact that it is not apt to compare the two machines any machines ...
The difference of engines is not the apt reason to discard this comparison on the other hand...
with the much more powerful engine it will be able to carry optimum load ....
just on electronics and radar I can say if it all goes as per the structure prepared for upgradation of tejas mk1 to mk2 then even that will be no less efficient and effective than that of rafale....

 

[Pulkit]

@Kunal Biswas sir i know you dont like to be part of such comparison but still if you will put some light on this...
@abhi_the _gr8_maratha kindly provide your views on this aswell....

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

Comparison between a two engine aircraft and single engine aircraft is not apt.

Rafale have high thrust,more maneuverable, carry more load and equipped with better electronics and Radar.

its already discussed on tejas mk2 thread, tejas have way superior radar than rafale.
.
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-air-force/45058-ada-lca-tejas-mark-ii-30.html
.
post number #449 by twinblade

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

@Kunal Biswas sir i know you dont like to be part of such comparison but still if you will put some light on this...
@abhi_the _gr8_maratha kindly provide your views on this aswell....

already discussed, tejas mk2 have better radar than rafale, have gold tint canopy which gives stealth at some level(don't know rafale have it or not) ,tejas have more carbon composites than rafale.
.
and we are not comparing 1 on 1 but budget wise. Taking price as 40-45 million, we can have three tejas instead one rafale

 

[Pulkit]

In the article of SAAB they were questioning that by the time Rafale will begin its deliveries MK2 will also be in production so there will be no neeed for Rafale anymore.....
If what i deduce from that article is correct...
but i dont think thats the case.


Though I believe that rafale is already and reality and tejas is a dream coming to reality...
As they say that numbers do play a major factor in combat so if instead of acquiring 126 rafale for 20b can we not reduce a number from 6 squad to 4 squad and shift that order to MK2 once mk2 is ready(That deal is no where close to getting closed atleast not as per info we have on net with HAL fighting)....
that we we can have Rafale + we can have billions+more aircrafts.... which will surely boost our depleting fleet....

Can this be acceptable if everything promised by DRDO and HAL are met?

What your take on that...
@abhi_the _gr8_maratha

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

@Pulkit , many including me saying the same, we should induct 3-4 squadrons of rafale cause of very deep strike in china.
.
but there is another view also , which is equally correct. Purchase 150-200 tejas mk1 instead of rafaletill tejas mk2 arrives and later upgrade mk1 to mk2 level and it won't gonna make any more costs cause of open architecture and indigenous designi.
.
french looted us and took 43 million to upgrade just single mirage , just think what will rafale cost for upgrade! And that too when IAF will be spending on FGFA, AMCA , may be tejas mk3 etc. Which are highly costly aircraft.

 

[dealwithit]

@Pulkit
I totally support the Idea of LCA mk2 contender of MMRCA.. But time constraint is biggest disadvantage to TEJAS..

Given to the present scenario we should buy Rafael for 2 squadrons atleast.. It will be ideal bcoz buy the time MK2 will be IOC cleared.. given the deadlines of delivery of MMRCA..
India don't need to buy huge number. of rafael......as per the deal....

 

[Pulkit]

self delete

 

[Pulkit]

we cannot go down to 2 squad i.e. 42 aircrafts from 126 in that case we will be forced to cancel the deal and we do need rafale...

it will compliment sukhoi perfectly...
we will need atleast 4 squad but then cost will playa major factor as lesser number more cost...

but then with the remaining money we can go for MK2 ... and incase god forbid MK2 doesnot keep up the promise we can go for MK1 or sukhoi mki...
time constraint is an issue but as Rafale deal is going there is a fullpossibility MK3 will be in production by the trime its inducted..
3-4 years back 126 number was justified but not today ...

@Pulkit
I totally support the Idea of LCA mk2 contender of MMRCA.. But time constraint is biggest disadvantage to TEJAS..

Given to the present scenario we should buy Rafael for 2 squadrons atleast.. It will be ideal bcoz buy the time MK2 will be IOC cleared.. given the deadlines of delivery of MMRCA..
India don't need to buy huge number. of rafael......as per the deal....

 

[Pulkit]

Based on that I will like to have more sukhoi just based on the cost factor lol ....
but yes we must decrease the order size save some money and get more MK2....
The order size must be such that MK2 and Rafale are inducted at the same time....
By upgradation i think you are talking about Radar and electronics ... as the size will change and that modification will be quite costlt...

I will stay with the lower number of tEJAS mk1 SAY 84 4 SQUAD BY THE TIME MK2 will hit production they would have been already inducted and suffient experience would have gained by IAF pilots to fly MK2..

I dont know if the same assembly line can be used for mk2 or not?
Yes it too expensive but quality also matters.... but on the whole also its expensive keeping in mind the operational cost...

FGFA and AMCA are still 5-10 years away to hit production line even if we fasttrack these two programs....

with the depleting fleet induction of MK1 will be very important and same with mk2 when it is ready.... Hopefully 2017 deadline will be met...

Rectify me if I am incorrect at any point....


@Pulkit , many including me saying the same, we should induct 3-4 squadrons of rafale cause of very deep strike in china.
.
but there is another view also , which is equally correct. Purchase 150-200 tejas mk1 instead of rafaletill tejas mk2 arrives and later upgrade mk1 to mk2 level and it won't gonna make any more costs cause of open architecture and indigenous designi.
.
french looted us and took 43 million to upgrade just single mirage , just think what will rafale cost for upgrade! And that too when IAF will be spending on FGFA, AMCA , may be tejas mk3 etc. Which are highly costly aircraft.
abhi_the _gr8_maratha ↑

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

in one on one scenario , tejas mk2 will beat rafale cause of better radar, lower rcs, just wondering how you said rafale is superior to tejas mk2?

 

[maomao]

Where is ArmanD these days?

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

in one on one scenario , tejas mk2 will beat rafale cause of better radar, lower rcs, just wondering how you said rafale is superior to tejas mk2? @Pulkit.
.
I will support to add 63 rafale ie 10billion on rafale as original deal. And why I support the deal is cause of meteor missile with range of 300+ km will give tejas mk2 superiority over any pakistani and chinese fighter present right now in their squadron

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

AGreeing to the fact that it is not apt to compare the two machines any machines ...
The difference of engines is not the apt reason to discard this comparison on the other hand...
just on electronics and radar I can say if it all goes as per the structure prepared for upgradation of tejas mk1 to mk2 then even that will be no less efficient and effective than that of rafale....

use of two engines gives rafale more safety than tejas cause if one engine fails other is working for rafale but it will be a crash for tejas..... Though there is no crashes of tejas making it one of the most reliable of the time

 

[Pulkit]

rafale will definately have greater range deep peneteration ability will be more...
Payload will be more for Rafale....

That one to one scenario where Tejas MK2 beats Rafale will be a dream coem true.....
I can debate about its superiority over chinese but pakis will stand no chance infront of it....

by decreasing numbers we will surely loose some thing but what will it be...????

Cant be have meteor only... or are we buying 126 aircrafts for meteor missile???

in one on one scenario , tejas mk2 will beat rafale cause of better radar, lower rcs, just wondering how you said rafale is superior to tejas mk2? @Pulkit.
.
I will support to add 63 rafale ie 10billion on rafale as original deal. And why I support the deal is cause of meteor missile with range of 300+ km will give tejas mk2 superiority over any pakistani and chinese fighter present right now in their squadron

 

[Pulkit]

Record of tejas so far has been impeccable... but today world is moving todays single engine aircrafts...
so that risk can be taken ....due to high developments in the field of engines....

use of two engines gives rafale more safety than tejas cause if one engine fails other is working for rafale but it will be a crash for tejas..... Though there is no crashes of tejas making it one of the most reliable of the time