Why Tejas Mk2 (MWF) Will Be Important

[IndianHawk]

Agreed but the advantage it offers is that it can detect enemy plane without exposing itself. MODERN IFRTS can detect the hit signature from about 100 KM. Most of the Radars can not detect enemy plane with RCS of around 0.1 M2 from that distance. More over stealthier planes like J 20 can be detect by IFRTS before they can be tracked by Radars.

Problem is that against a true stealth plane ( not j20 but let's say f35) the stealth plane with irst will have advantage over non stealth Rafale and mwf with irst. As Rafael or mwf heat signature will be higher than f35.

Good thing is that Chinese don't have stealth engine tech so heat signature of j20 will be enormous and it can't super cruise. Also Chinese irst far behind irst tech of rafale.

So rafale can have tremendous advantage over j20 type. But in next 20 years Chinese might overcome shortcomings of j20 hence AMCA needs to be fully ready much before that.

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[HariPrasad-1]

Problem is that against a true stealth plane ( not j20 but let's say f35) the stealth plane with irst will have advantage over non stealth Rafale and mwf with irst. As Rafael or mwf heat signature will be higher than f35.

Good thing is that Chinese don't have stealth engine tech so heat signature of j20 will be enormous and it can't super cruise. Also Chinese irst far behind irst tech of rafale.

So rafale can have tremendous advantage over j20 type. But in next 20 years Chinese might overcome shortcomings of j20 hence AMCA needs to be fully ready much before that.

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Rafale is build on different philosophy. Reduce as much RCS as possible and complement the shortcoming with State of art EW. I am very sure that It can have reasonably good performance against F 35.

 

[Steven Rogers]

But they are very useful in hiding the radar signatures and detecting stealth or very low radar signature planes.

You can't use an irst unless you have detected a Target on radar. Irst on fighter aircrafts have a small fov and unless you're precise enough of where to search your target ,you won't be able to use it any where near effective.

 

[IndianHawk]

You can't use an irst unless you have detected a Target on radar. Irst on fighter aircrafts have a small fov and unless you're precise enough of where to search your target ,you won't be able to use it any where near effective.

That is why target needs to be acquired from ground based radar or an AWACS and fighter jet reaches in proximity of given location and then uses irst to home in.

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[HariPrasad-1]

You can't use an irst unless you have detected a Target on radar. Irst on fighter aircrafts have a small fov and unless you're precise enough of where to search your target ,you won't be able to use it any where near effective.

I don't know whether what you say is true or not.

 

[IndianHawk]

I don't know whether what you say is true or not.

He is right. If a fighter uses its own radar then stealth is compromised. That is why AWACS and ground based radar transfer the approximate location of enemy jet. Once at probable location irst can look for actual enemy target.

That is why stealth warfare depends on network centric capabilities. Without network stealth is compromised.

That is also why Chinese stealth is very premature and non- operational against India.

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[B0seRaoMenonModi]

we are behind from china & we have to do something , hal & drdo are not performing up-to level. i think we should take few planes from fgffa doesn't matter they are how much good or not and increase our AMCA speed we need result .

IAF need 5 gen planes at right time , we dont have time for HAL experiments or researches , they have to perform otherwise govt will dis mental them .

IAF & NAVY need numbers & quality at right time .

of topic :: but our hyper sonic missile program is also getting late

the iaf needs quality so it should accept anything the fgfa program produces

Your idea is exactly what the IAF is doing, running around like headless chickens and why it's in such a poor shape.

These idiot stop gap measures are why the IAF lacks strategy and coherent doctrine and why a failed state like pakiland and can best it with handouts and military aid.

Tejas is not a viable option by time it comes online and then matures we'll be on 7th gen aircraft.

 

[abingdonboy]

Now with the disaster facing the Jag fleet (not re-engining) MWF takes an even bigger role and needs to be fast tracked, it is the only suitable solution to the pathetic state the IAF finds itself in.

MWF will be needed to replace the MIG-21, MIG-27, MIG-23, Jaguar and in the future MIRAGE-2000-5 MK.2. That’s 300-400 jets most of which needed to be phased out 20+ years ago.

123 MK1/A
201+ MWF
100+ Rafale
300+ MKIs

This is the only logical direction the IAF can take over the next 5-7 years.

After 2025 AMCA will come into the picture and maybe FGFA can be looked at in 3-4 years do 1-2 5th gen types can be in service come 2030.


IAF is in a real mess, they need to get a grip and stop playing stupid games like this MMRCA 2.0 RFI or wasting their time looking at 2nd hand jets.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

He is right. If a fighter uses its own radar then stealth is compromised. That is why AWACS and ground based radar transfer the approximate location of enemy jet. Once at probable location irst can look for actual enemy target.

That is why stealth warfare depends on network centric capabilities. Without network stealth is compromised.

That is also why Chinese stealth is very premature and non- operational against India.

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In this scenario, missile like sfdr will come into picture. If you can shoot AW&C from 350 km, aw&c will loose it's utility.

 

[Steven Rogers]

That is why target needs to be acquired from ground based radar or an AWACS and fighter jet reaches in proximity of given location and then uses irst to home in.

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AWACS would be the last sensor to detect stealth jet at long ranges....

 

[IndianHawk]

In this scenario, missile like sfdr will come into picture. If you can shoot AW&C from 350 km, aw&c will loose it's utility.

Yup AWACS will be first targets in case of war.
Secondly ground radars of enemy will be destroyed with ngarm .



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[Bleh]

He is right. If a fighter uses its own radar then stealth is compromised. That is why AWACS and ground based radar transfer the approximate location of enemy jet. Once at probable location irst can look for actual enemy target.

In an actual war scenario, wouldn't such connections be lost to enemy jamming & electronic countermeasures?

Yup AWACS will be first targets in case of war.
Secondly ground radars of enemy will be destroyed with ngarm .

How? Do the BVRAAMs & ARMs have enough range to reach, bypass countermeasures & hit them far away behind the intensely jammed combat zone?

Heard of someone suggested Brahmos-NG launched from air could cruise to & hit enemy's slower larger AWACS, tankers, transport etc.

 

[Bleh]

Brahmos-NG will have Long-range Air-to-Air missile variant
August 12, 2019 | By admin SOURCE: IDRW

TLDR;
A lighter sleeker variant of the Indo-Russian cruise missile dubbed as Brahmos-NG (Next Generation ) will be ready for developmental trials by 2024.

NG version will have a Very Long Range Air to Air Missile (VLRAAM) variant to knock down AWACs and airborne tankers. Air-to-Air Variant will range of 300km will be getting an active seeker and will have a similar profile like that of Russian developed Vympel R-37 for the Mig-31 fighter aircraft.
Brahmos Aerospace might even add jettisonable rocket booster that increases the range to over 350 to 400 km.

 

[IndianHawk]

In an actual war scenario, wouldn't such connections be lost to enemy jamming & electronic countermeasures?


How? Do the BVRAAMs & ARMs have enough range to reach, bypass countermeasures & hit them far away behind the intensely jammed combat zone?

Heard of someone suggested Brahmos-NG launched from air could cruise to & hit enemy's slower larger AWACS, tankers, transport etc.

AWACS have limited counter measures and they are slow. They can't outrun multiple missile launched at them.

Sfdr will be able to hit AWACS from 300km+ away. ( So does Meteor probably).

Then there is s400 missiles which can hit 400 km away if target is as big and slow as AWACS or transport jet. Our own XRSAM will be able to hit AWACS from 250km+ away.

The point is even if you can't hit enemy AWACS directly but you can create a Sam / aam bubble of 300+ km then you push enemy AWACS to operate from 300 km away. Given that AWACS also face range limits such distance renders enemy AWACS only usable for defensive coordination and enemy can't come close to check out our defensive formation.

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[Bleh]

AWACS have limited counter measures and they are slow. They can't outrun multiple missile launched at them.

Sfdr will be able to hit AWACS from 300km+ away. ( So does Meteor probably).

Then there is s400 missiles which can hit 400 km away if target is as big and slow as AWACS or transport jet. Our own XRSAM will be able to hit AWACS from 250km+ away.

The point is even if you can't hit enemy AWACS directly but you can create a Sam / aam bubble of 300+ km then you push enemy AWACS to operate from 300 km away. Given that AWACS also face range limits such distance renders enemy AWACS only usable for defensive coordination and enemy can't come close to check out our defensive formation.

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If DRDO can succeed in developing reliable Solid Fuel Ducted Ramjet (SFDR), then Brahmos-NG will definitely get it.

Plus you just also consider that unlike S-400 or XRSAM, upto 5 of these 300-450km ranged Brahmos-NG will be air-launched by Su-30 & 2-3 by Tejas/MWF... from literally anywhere, carrying much larger warheads than regular AAMs. A welcome development indeed.

Strategically their P-3 Orions, AWACS, tankers & transport aircrafts are much more important than the F-16s Or Jf-17s.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

AWACS have limited counter measures and they are slow. They can't outrun multiple missile launched at them.

Sfdr will be able to hit AWACS from 300km+ away. ( So does Meteor probably).

Then there is s400 missiles which can hit 400 km away if target is as big and slow as AWACS or transport jet. Our own XRSAM will be able to hit AWACS from 250km+ away.

The point is even if you can't hit enemy AWACS directly but you can create a Sam / aam bubble of 300+ km then you push enemy AWACS to operate from 300 km away. Given that AWACS also face range limits such distance renders enemy AWACS only usable for defensive coordination and enemy can't come close to check out our defensive formation.

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No countermeasure can work against a mamoth air to air missile like Brahmos NG.
Its massive seeker will ignore any electronic countermeasure and hit plane with 200 kg of explosive.

 

[Armand2REP]

No countermeasure can work against a mamoth air to air missile like Brahmos NG.
Its massive seeker will ignore any electronic countermeasure and hit plane with 200 kg of explosive.

Since when is it an A2A missile?

 

[Bleh]

Since when is it an A2A missile?

Just one version of it... Read last few posts.

 

[Armand2REP]

Just one version of it... Read last few posts.

It is not possible to turn a LACM cruise missile into high altitude A2A missile. They would be two different designs. The author must have confused two different programmes.

 

[IndianHawk]

It is not possible to turn a LACM cruise missile into high altitude A2A missile. They would be two different designs. The author must have confused two different programmes.

It's not an official program at this stage anyway.
Bramhos Ng will come and air launched version of nirbhay is also in development.

Once these missiles are ready ( air to ground version) it is proposed that an AWACS killer air to air missile can be spun off out of bramhos Ng.

But that's highly sceptical as we know sfdr is already progressing well which will be able to hit AWACS type big targets from very long ranges .

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