Why is AFSPA necessary for India

Fire and groove

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The Soldier is endowed by AFPSA with powers of the state - i.e the right to take a life. The onus of responsibility will lie on them ALWAYS. Please stop this bullcrap of pitting sympathy of Army Vs citizens of this country.

Its low brow and truely represents a poisoned mindset. The Army fucked up, the GOI owned up to it.

Move the fuck on.
Amit Shah's statement is contradictory
 

tomthounaojam

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I think presence of guns also changes the attitude of people towards administration.
Do any special law apply to NE when it comes to firearms.
As far as I've seen evey prohibited bore in rest of India is smuggled through NE.
Police are way better armed here than elsewhere, if you see the police thread, I mean here a regular constable get an HK-Mp5 to Amogh, people attitude toward administrations change per location if you are in far flung place and you know there are more armed people than your admins can then you become a spectator.
Gun law is the same but it is how one can get the permit that is another matter, I was planning to get a permit for.22 to shoot some rodents but my father close friend who is now a DIG said it is really hard to get the permit because there few departments involved. But In Nagaland, it is easy to get that is what my friend told me.
There are C02 Glock tho which I am thinking now.
Like said gun smuggling is a big business and it gets overshadowed by drug and insurgency problems, if you read the portal i shared the other day on time to time basis you will see gun smugglers being caught and you will shock by gun they were smuggling, sometimes I chuckle after watching Mirzapur, if Mirzapur was closed to border it would have high-grade weapons.
 

Fire and groove

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I don't think there are any democracies fighting insurgency other than India so our case is unique in itself.



Tell me how many of tese countries are democracy in the trust sense.

All of those who are fighting are authoritarian or dictatorship.
This leaves out those democracies that have fought insurgencies in the past. Also, democracy is a system but it doesn't guarantee humanitarian treatment, which works by a scale. Pakistan is an excellent example of just that.
While other democracies very much have loosened restraint to deal with insurgencies (like the British), it was always done under the purview of maintaining balance between efficiency and humanitarian grounds. That's not the case with the AFSPA.
 

Killbot

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"Move the fuck on"?! Do u even have basic humanity?? Look at his face! Those are multiple stab wounds on his face! Half of it is mf GONE!! Instead of calling for revenge against these terrorists(yeah they are and if u believe otherwise then don't reply to this comment) you are telling us to move on?! This braveheart was fking fighting for your safety 24/7 365, not caring for his life or his family's and this is how u talk about him?? You are truly fucked up
Well you can't kill 19 civilians and not expect repercussions. Someone on the security forces' side fucked up which led to a series of fuckups. And someone else paid the price. I'm not justifying either side but this was to be expected.

Anyway, the security forces' reputation is in tatters now. And 'revenge' or any form of retaliation against civilians will not help.
 
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Bhumihar

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This leaves out those democracies that have fought insurgencies in the past. Also, democracy is a system but it doesn't guarantee humanitarian treatment, which works by a scale. Pakistan is an excellent example of just that.
While other democracies very much have loosened restraint to deal with insurgencies (like the British), it was always done under the purview of maintaining balance between efficiency and humanitarian grounds. That's not the case with the AFSPA.
No western country has seen the same kind of insurgency as India in the past 50 years or so.

Some of the anti communist laws of the west during the cold war period would put some dictatorship to Shame.

Also Pakistan is anything but democracy.

Administration openings up to talking responsibility is a welcome change but removing AFSPA all together seems far fetched.
 

Bhumihar

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Look if an army unit comes into your home shoots 6 of your family members and then say sorry
If u leave out insurgency hit areas look at the statistics a military personnel killing a Indian citizens u will find close to none.
Know instances Bhagalpur riot, Punjab Insurgency and other few.

Several scuffle have happened outside cantonments but none ram to stab an officer to death.


The villagers were in the wrong to attack, and the ones responsible should be punished but that goes for both sides
Punish both sides yes but whom to punish. Are u going to punish the soldier who are a monke on the trigger and following protocol or the agencies.
 

Fire and groove

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No western country has seen the same kind of insurgency as India in the past 50 years or so.

Some of the anti communist laws of the west during the cold war period would put some dictatorship to Shame.

Also Pakistan is anything but democracy.

Administration openings up to talking responsibility is a welcome change but removing AFSPA all together seems far fetched.
I highly disagree. Just because they haven't been fighting one at home doesn't invalidate their experiences in Iraq and Afghanistan. Entire cities have been leveled in Iraq, Kashmir has never come anywhere near the sheer devestation, complexity and intensity of either of these two campaigns. It's a far cry from it.

The communist laws should absolutely be acknowledged as unjustified and unbecoming. But that just furthers my point. They weren't put in motion during thr cold war itself, but earlier. The laws themselves are also not comparable to AFSPA as both deal with seperate issues in completely capacity and direction.

By technicality Pakistan is a democracy. It simply doesn't function and project on a humanitarian level. Democracy is people's rule, but that doesn't necessarily translate to humanitarian treatment.
 

Fire and groove

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Yea a truck of civies of coal miners who were carrying hunting rifles. And do tell me which country is fighting insurgency in their own land? When it comes to fighting terrorism there is no legal procedure to be followed. It's like saying if a guy came at u with a machete then u won't defend yourself by using anything at your disposal but u will go to a court of law for justice provided u are still alive. AFSPA gives full power to armed forces to carry out search and arrest without any legal proceedings, who they perceive to be a threat to national security based on the Intel they get. What u want the army to go to a terrorist hideout and kindly ask them to follow legal procedure to arrest him? Yea right dude whatever.
It was a single hunting rifle, and even then it's not been proven yet. Also, i fail to see how us fighting an insurgency on our turf furthers your point. If anything, it calls for extremely delicate handling and a methodical approach that is concious of local perception.

There absolutely is grounds to be made regarding legal proceedings when dealing with terrorism. Approaching an insurgency without any attempt at maintaining legal procedures is just deliberately advocating the enablement of war-crimes and/or human rights violations.

It doesn't matter what I say, what matters is what the evidence says. Your statement is strawmaning every contact as if there's no possibility of deviation from SOPs by those on the ground.

Great strawman, again, but my issues with the AFSPA have to do with the flimsy conditions to enable a weapons free order to kill and the easily subvertable inquiry and prosecution.

Anyway, reply to me on the AFSPA thread if you want. I don't wanna get banned.
 

Bhumihar

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It is true that we love our forcew but that doesn't mean we should be blind when making our opinions when the very same ones makes mistakes.
Well now that mistake has happened what is the right course of action. Have the top leadership said that killing of workers was justified for some odd reason. No they haven't. All the innocents kin will get compensation, an enquiry will take place and the officers will get punishment if found guilty what else could be done.
Well said. Just consider if it was done by police, the ones calling out for revenge and justification of killing would have said the same?
Have u asked the forum members here if they justify the killing and are they asking for revenge on all the naga communities or just the perpetrators who lynched the Officer in the camp?
When you lost your dear onea you cant expect people to be silent and sit idle.
I guess every communal riot in India is justified than, people taking law into their own hand, fuck civil sense am I right?
If it had happened somewhere else similar protests would have happened.
Protests not outright storming a Security apparatus and killing officers.

this is protest



This is outright revolt





know the difference.


If this is incident done by naga community was justified than entire Punjab Insurgency and Every single Communal riot is justified.

There is Parliament, Court and Civic sense what to do with them throw it out of window
 

another_armchair

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Wouldn't it be safer to wait for CoI before commenting on the incident as if people people were physically present and have everything recorded on camera because basing our judgement on statements made by politicians holding public office are weighed upon sentiments and not facts, situation on the ground?
 

ALBY

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Well now that mistake has happened what is the right course of action. Have the top leadership said that killing of workers was justified for some odd reason. No they haven't. All the innocents kin will get compensation, an enquiry will take place and the officers will get punishment if found guilty what else could be done.

Have u asked the forum members here if they justify the killing and are they asking for revenge on all the naga communities or just the perpetrators who lynched the Officer in the camp?

I guess every communal riot in India is justified than, people taking law into their own hand, fuck civil sense am I right?

Protests not outright storming a Security apparatus and killing officers.

this is protest



This is outright revolt





know the difference.


If this is incident done by naga community was justified than entire Punjab Insurgency and Every single Communal riot is justified.

There is Parliament, Court and Civic sense what to do with them throw it out of window
Its not a rocket science to understand that my post was aimed at all those persons posting all those hate mongering messages and taking one sided stands forgetting those killed were indian citizens.
No one said about justification of ransacking by mkbs, those behind it should be brought before law just like you are qsking for a fair trial for army. Nothing more or less, unlike what many people called for killing all those people.
You want to justify all those communal riots and pjnjab insurgency, its all upto you mate.
 

tomthounaojam

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One of the problems is there is no oversight and there has been no prosecution so far and that creates a sense of suppression. If there were some prosecution trust me there won't be as much problem or thing about AFSPA. AFSPA if it is to be there needs to be amended. There are areas that need AFSPA, especially near the international border.
 

Tshering22

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Democracy index a meme Index but still.

That index is the biggest sham.

Everything west of Poland, south of Indonesia and east of China is perfect.

That's NOT how the REAL world is.

AFSPA will remain and has to remain so. Otherwise terrorists will use a mix of victimhood + attacks and destroy our military institutions. Our soldiers will be able to do nothing.

I am sad about the massive botch-up in Nagaland. It could have been anyone's family and several families DID lose their loved ones. But tell me, which military does not make this now and then? USA, Israel, UK, France, Russia... everyone has had mishaps and tragedies.

But AFSPA has to stay until terrorism exists.
 
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Tshering22

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One of the problems is there is no oversight and there has been no prosecution so far and that creates a sense of suppression. If there were some prosecution trust me there won't be as much problem or thing about AFSPA. AFSPA if it is to be there needs to be amended. There are areas that need AFSPA, especially near the international border.
Totally agree.

But the Army Tribunal is already investigating it.

Military investigations are not allowed to be open in the public until final verdict is reached. So let's wait and see what the investigation throws up.

There have to be amendments.

But the law has to stay.
 

SwordOfDarkness

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One of the problems is there is no oversight and there has been no prosecution so far and that creates a sense of suppression. If there were some prosecution trust me there won't be as much problem or thing about AFSPA. AFSPA if it is to be there needs to be amended. There are areas that need AFSPA, especially near the international border.
There is prosecution, but only in military courts so ppl dont get to know about it.
 

tomthounaojam

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Btw there was a discussion on why BJP led government is not removing AFPSA when they keep yelling law and order have improved, during 2007-2010 nearly 1000+ people died because of militancy-related now 2017-2021 under 50.
 

Bhumihar

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Btw there was a discussion on why BJP led government is not removing AFPSA when they keep yelling law and order have improved, during 2007-2010 nearly 1000+ people died because of militancy-related now 2017-2021 under 50.
Strategic disadvantage is the only thing I can think about.
TBH we half ass our discussion on the forum.
We should brings in the original document that illustrates the law and it's parameters.
Articles from a relatively neutral source that tries to put accountability of AFSPA.
Is there any place where operation carried out under the mandate of AFSPA is carried out?
 

tomthounaojam

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Strategic disadvantage is the only thing I can think about.
TBH we half ass our discussion on the forum.
We should brings in the original document that illustrates the law and it's parameters.
Articles from a relatively neutral source that tries to put accountability of AFSPA.
Is there any place where operation carried out under the mandate of AFSPA is carried out?
I will try to upload whenever I can when I find these documents, like government notifications or order etc. Anyway even if we half-ass ourselves it sure opened the eyes of many members who are not even aware of these laws.
 

angryIndian

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Controversial Law AFSPA Extended In Nagaland For 6 Months
Not a wise move....This will do nothing but create a bigger wedge between locals and the government and that too at a crucial time when mass anti-AFSPA protests are going on all over Nagaland.
 

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