Why India can’t defeat Pakistan or China in a war

lcafanboy

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2013
Messages
5,810
Likes
37,271
Country flag
Why India can’t defeat Pakistan or China in a war
By John Cheeran
Published: March 23, 2017
328SHARES
SHARE TWEET EMAIL



Narendra Modi. PHOTO: REUTERS

To provoke a somnolent establishment into action, your message has to be blunt. There cannot be a more blunt warning to India’s political leadership and defence establishment than what Pravin Sawhney and Ghazala Wahab have delivered in their admirable and unsparing book Dragon On Our Doorstep: Managing China Through Military Power (Published by Aleph, Pages 458, Price Rs 799). Let alone China, India cannot even win a war against Pakistan. Yes, you read that right.

Sawhney, an Armyman-turned-journalist, and Wahab, a career journalist, are editors at FORCE magazine which focuses on national security, bring to the book sharp analysis and fresh perspectives to present a new strategy to strengthen India as a nation.

One of their key arguments is that the political leadership has to improve their understanding of military matters and involve the views of defence forces while making critical national security decisions. Another provocative take is that the Indian Army is a bloated force and has to shed flab, by reducing the number of personnel at its disposal. They call for a review of both field force and non-field force in the Army in order to move towards professionalism. The authors also want the Army to disengage itself from counter-insurgency operations, a task at best left to paramilitary forces, and regain its edge to do its primary task- fight the enemy.

India could launch ‘preemptive’ nuclear strike against Pakistan, says expert


Dragon On Our Doorstep could be a little misleading title since the authors are not only discussing the China threat but India’s defence strategy. In full play is Pakistan, Kashmir and the red menace, the greatest threat India is facing, as former Prime Minister Manmohan Singh put it. Sawhney and Wahab say that in terms of threat, Pakistan is China and China is Pakistan, pointing out especially the ‘inter-operability’ that both military forces have achieved.

So despite the strongman Narendra Modi at the helm, why can’t India defeat Pakistan in a war? Sawhney and Wahab make a critical distinction to win their argument. Pakistan has built military power, India a military force. And they explain: “Military force involves the mere collection of war-withal, that is, building up of troops and war-waging material; military power is about optimal utilization of military force. It entails an understanding of the adversaries and the quantum of threat from each, the nature of warfare, domains of war, how it would be fought, and structural military reforms at various levels to meet these challenges.”

Sawhney and Wahab write that the political leadership which would decide the terms of war engagement understands neither nuclear weapons nor military power. “Its responses would be slow, tardy, ad hoc and piecemeal rather than bold and substantive if the countries were to go to war.”

Pakistan will win any war against India


What else makes Indian defence forces vulnerable? Since the defence forces are outside the government, they have little interaction with the political leadership in peacetime and little say in the acquisition of conventional weapons. The defence services have little knowledge and understanding of their own nuclear weapons and Pakistan’s nuclear redlines. As India does not have an efficient indigenous defence industry, war supplies are not assured. All these, for an average reader, sound pretty scary.

There is more in store. Sawhney and Wahab write that the Indian Air Force has critical deficiencies in combat aircraft, training aircraft, simulators, air defence and network-centricity. “Most of all, the joint-ness in operations between the army and the air force, which is a critical requirement at the operational level for a short and swift, war is absent. This was obvious from the last localized Kargil conflict that the two services fought together. Instead of a single operation, the army’s operation was named Vijay, while the IAF campaign was called Safed Sagar.”

The authors also examine India’s foreign policy in relation to China and Pakistan and criticise Modi for his failure in not rising as a statesman prime minister to transform India into a leading power. Modi’s foreign policy, the authors say, is more optics than substance.

China blocks river, sets off alarm bells in India


They say that ‘Act East, Think West’ policy is hampered by the perennial failures in strategic thinking and a lack of appreciation for military power. They pick on India’s foreign aid policy and say that if our neighbours are neither deferential nor deterrent there is something amiss. Sawhaney and Wahab argue that aid is seldom given to fulfill the needs of the recipient. It is given to meet the requirements- strategic in the case of nations- of the giver. And if the requirements are not met, you increase the aid or diversify it. They also say that India is the only country in the world where foreign policy with nations having disputed borders- China and Pakistan- is made with regard to military advice. All these criticisms should rile the defence establishment and the bureaucrats who have straitjacketed India’s foreign policy.

The other strong and significant argument that Sawhney and Wahab put forward is that the government of India should open unconditional talks with everyone alienated from the national mainstream, irrespective of their professed public positions. They caution that even the biggest of powers have not been able to withstand internal discord because they understand that the financial and military effort required to keep it in check debilitates the nation in the long run. Sawhney and Wahab are absolutely justified when the say that if India is able to win over the tribal population of central India and the people from the northeastern states, it will be able to free up a substantive number of its soldiers from internal stability and counter-insurgency operations.

So in the end, the message is that set your home right, the world will follow you. May be Modi can take note.

This article originally appeared on the Times of India.

https://tribune.com.pk/story/1363871/india-cant-defeat-pakistan-china-war/

@sayareakd @Bornubus @Kunal Biswas @hammer head @all
 

Hemu Vikram Aditya

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2017
Messages
1,107
Likes
968
Country flag
Why India can’t defeat Pakistan or China in a war
By John Cheeran
Published: March 23, 2017
328SHARES

SHARE TWEET EMAIL



Narendra Modi. PHOTO: REUTERS

To provoke a somnolent establishment into action, your message has to be blunt. There cannot be a more blunt warning to India’s political leadership and defence establishment than what Pravin Sawhney and Ghazala Wahab have delivered in their admirable and unsparing book Dragon On Our Doorstep: Managing China Through Military Power (Published by Aleph, Pages 458, Price Rs 799). Let alone China, India cannot even win a war against Pakistan. Yes, you read that right.

Sawhney, an Armyman-turned-journalist, and Wahab, a career journalist, are editors at FORCE magazine which focuses on national security, bring to the book sharp analysis and fresh perspectives to present a new strategy to strengthen India as a nation.

One of their key arguments is that the political leadership has to improve their understanding of military matters and involve the views of defence forces while making critical national security decisions. Another provocative take is that the Indian Army is a bloated force and has to shed flab, by reducing the number of personnel at its disposal. They call for a review of both field force and non-field force in the Army in order to move towards professionalism. The authors also want the Army to disengage itself from counter-insurgency operations, a task at best left to paramilitary forces, and regain its edge to do its primary task- fight the enemy.

India could launch ‘preemptive’ nuclear strike against Pakistan, says expert


Dragon On Our Doorstep could be a little misleading title since the authors are not only discussing the China threat but India’s defence strategy. In full play is Pakistan, Kashmir and the red menace, the greatest threat India is facing, as former Prime Minister Manmohan Singh put it. Sawhney and Wahab say that in terms of threat, Pakistan is China and China is Pakistan, pointing out especially the ‘inter-operability’ that both military forces have achieved.

So despite the strongman Narendra Modi at the helm, why can’t India defeat Pakistan in a war? Sawhney and Wahab make a critical distinction to win their argument. Pakistan has built military power, India a military force. And they explain: “Military force involves the mere collection of war-withal, that is, building up of troops and war-waging material; military power is about optimal utilization of military force. It entails an understanding of the adversaries and the quantum of threat from each, the nature of warfare, domains of war, how it would be fought, and structural military reforms at various levels to meet these challenges.”

Sawhney and Wahab write that the political leadership which would decide the terms of war engagement understands neither nuclear weapons nor military power. “Its responses would be slow, tardy, ad hoc and piecemeal rather than bold and substantive if the countries were to go to war.”

Pakistan will win any war against India


What else makes Indian defence forces vulnerable? Since the defence forces are outside the government, they have little interaction with the political leadership in peacetime and little say in the acquisition of conventional weapons. The defence services have little knowledge and understanding of their own nuclear weapons and Pakistan’s nuclear redlines. As India does not have an efficient indigenous defence industry, war supplies are not assured. All these, for an average reader, sound pretty scary.

There is more in store. Sawhney and Wahab write that the Indian Air Force has critical deficiencies in combat aircraft, training aircraft, simulators, air defence and network-centricity. “Most of all, the joint-ness in operations between the army and the air force, which is a critical requirement at the operational level for a short and swift, war is absent. This was obvious from the last localized Kargil conflict that the two services fought together. Instead of a single operation, the army’s operation was named Vijay, while the IAF campaign was called Safed Sagar.”

The authors also examine India’s foreign policy in relation to China and Pakistan and criticise Modi for his failure in not rising as a statesman prime minister to transform India into a leading power. Modi’s foreign policy, the authors say, is more optics than substance.

China blocks river, sets off alarm bells in India


They say that ‘Act East, Think West’ policy is hampered by the perennial failures in strategic thinking and a lack of appreciation for military power. They pick on India’s foreign aid policy and say that if our neighbours are neither deferential nor deterrent there is something amiss. Sawhaney and Wahab argue that aid is seldom given to fulfill the needs of the recipient. It is given to meet the requirements- strategic in the case of nations- of the giver. And if the requirements are not met, you increase the aid or diversify it. They also say that India is the only country in the world where foreign policy with nations having disputed borders- China and Pakistan- is made with regard to military advice. All these criticisms should rile the defence establishment and the bureaucrats who have straitjacketed India’s foreign policy.

The other strong and significant argument that Sawhney and Wahab put forward is that the government of India should open unconditional talks with everyone alienated from the national mainstream, irrespective of their professed public positions. They caution that even the biggest of powers have not been able to withstand internal discord because they understand that the financial and military effort required to keep it in check debilitates the nation in the long run. Sawhney and Wahab are absolutely justified when the say that if India is able to win over the tribal population of central India and the people from the northeastern states, it will be able to free up a substantive number of its soldiers from internal stability and counter-insurgency operations.

So in the end, the message is that set your home right, the world will follow you. May be Modi can take note.

This article originally appeared on the Times of India.

https://tribune.com.pk/story/1363871/india-cant-defeat-pakistan-china-war/

@sayareakd @Bornubus @Kunal Biswas @hammer head @all
What verbal diarrhea is this
So this jihadi cocksucker immediately assumed that India is not going to defeat padistan because their soldiers optimize nicely and china cutting of only like 15-20% of our water (which they wouldnt ) is going to change the tides of war if it Happend and even pak is suffering from internal problems more than Bharat and its track record in curbing it is even worse than Bharat this looks like missionary propaganda at work
 

Bornubus

Chodi Bhakt & BJPig Hunter
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2015
Messages
7,494
Likes
17,198

Flame Thrower

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2016
Messages
1,675
Likes
2,731
If Nukes are not included.....

I doubt Pak will stand for 3 days in war....

As per the writer, our forces don't co-ordinate during war....

Maybe true, but I beg to differ....

There are few instances which makes me feel that our forces co-ordinate...

1. During battle of Longewala, Major Chandpuri requested for Air support when he came to know about Pak army attacking his post. Help came in the first light as hunters can't attack at night.

2. On the east Pak, IAF destroyed PAF, army started to move ahead, IAF and IN airwing provided CAS and destroyed will of Pak army to fight.

3. Kargil is true synchronization of our forces, Navy made nothing reached Pak. IA started its land operations, IAF provided abit of Logistics and Bombed bunkers...

This was all pre 2000

When cold start replaced Sundar Raj doctrine, IAF, IN & IA got clearer objectives incase if war.

Their preparedness and synchronization of operations improved....

But what we lack is a combined joint operations team...

Lack of combined joint operations team doesn't mean that our forces can't help each other during war.

There is a plan to setup a similar joint operations team in future...

Lastly, I strongly feel that this article is to scare people, but nothing else...
 

lcafanboy

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2013
Messages
5,810
Likes
37,271
Country flag
It's a fart of an article. :biggrin2:

It's a well known fact that Indian army will pulverize porky army anytime and can finish porkistan anytime. :shoot:

However China is a different Ball game, but Indian army can definitely hold on and give them bloody nose. We will suffer but China will too. So this article is all :bs:.
 

lcafanboy

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2013
Messages
5,810
Likes
37,271
Country flag
If Nukes are not included.....

I doubt Pak will stand for 3 days in war....
I say I doubt Pak will stand even on the first day of war with India. Even if Nukes are included. The only thing that holds us is political will.

Those Nukes will be taken out in the first couple of hours itself if full fledged war is fought.
 

Shashank Sharma

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2016
Messages
47
Likes
36
This article definitely has an alarmist tone to it, which isn't really called for. But India seriously needs to be more willing to exercise it's military muscle.
I've read in many articles over a few years that the armed forces are viewed with suspicion in the MoD bureaucracy. A hangover from the days of Nehru.
 

Kunal Biswas

Member of the Year 2011
Ambassador
Joined
May 26, 2010
Messages
31,122
Likes
41,042
The taste of the article is not defense but more to do with Political PR in inter rivalry of political parties, Their are too many assumptions and pot shots and certain made out facts, Its almost nullify any quality it can produce ..

The real reasons existed but won`t come out of TOI, It may hurt certain group`s interest in defense marketing, Rajat pandit and few in the ring would know better ..
 

captscooby81

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2016
Messages
7,123
Likes
27,112
Country flag
As usual Commie propoganda what the fuck this chinnie pig ass licker has named his blog has arrackistan for his love for pakistan and his love for arrack ...On the example of Military force utilisation yes we need to bring in more para military and remove our forces from NE and also its high time we go for one strong push to get the red terror out of this country .Your body wont be healthy if you have a strong stomach bug .. Time to free states of central India from this Maoist fuckers ...
 

Mikesingh

Professional
Joined
Sep 7, 2015
Messages
7,353
Likes
30,450
Country flag
So according to these nuts, Pak will win a war against India? Really? WTF were these idiots smoking when they wrote this piece of crap? And the media laps it up like there's no tomorrow! Jeeez!

Next they'll say the US of A will lose a war against Burkino Faso because of Trump! And because the US Navy doesn't see eye-to-eye with the US Air Force! Lol!

These two morons who wrote this balderdash need urgent medical help.
 

Hiranyaksha

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2017
Messages
2,098
Likes
4,515
Country flag
It is absolutely fabulous news. Nothing brings more joy than enemy state over estimating its capability.

“All warfare is based on deception.
Hence when able to attack, we must seem unable.
Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him.
Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected."
 

Berkut

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2012
Messages
511
Likes
1,510
Country flag
A few questions for the gurus here:

1) How sure are we of Pak nuclear status and their delivery capability. Could the tests in chagai hills be an attempt to save it's H&D and do == with India with an imported device from NoKo or Cheen with a hastily painted chaand taara on it?

2) I feel, with China, it's certainly an equal contest but we do have some distinct advantages like our experience in fighting in high altitude areas, proximity of our air bases to the front and the fact that these air bases are located relatively closer to sea level thereby affording higher weapons stores lift capacity to aircraft. Our ability to target China's major economic centres etc.
 

HariPrasad-1

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2016
Messages
9,611
Likes
21,080
Country flag
We have defeated Pakistan four times in 70 years. What else is left to prove that we ca not defeat them once again?
 

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top