Why Google Is Quitting China

Joined
Feb 16, 2009
Messages
24,584
Likes
21,191
Country flag
microsoft 's Ballmer is criticizing Google meanwhile Internet explorer is a spyware and virus writer paradise which has been repeatedly hacked. Ballmer needs to keep his mouth shut Google has learned from the disaster known as internet explorer and does not want the same.
 

singa

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 2, 2009
Messages
42
Likes
3
In China political dissidents may be executed with after a closed 10 minute trial. We are not talking India or USA or Sweden - this is China !!
Obviously, when the stakes are so high - then it becomes about more than market share or money.
That is not true. You must be living in the sky.

In the other hand, if USA government found that Osama is using a gmail account. What will happen? I think USA government will ask google give all the information about this account. will google deny it by saying "freedom" or protecting "privacy"? Definitely not. otherwise the CEO of google will be arrested witnin 1 second.
 

tarunraju

Sanathan Pepe
Mod
Joined
Sep 18, 2009
Messages
7,148
Likes
20,439
Country flag
That is not true. You must be living in the sky.

In the other hand, if USA government found that Osama is using a gmail account. What will happen? I think USA government will ask google give all the information about this account. will google deny it by saying "freedom" or protecting "privacy"? Definitely not. otherwise the CEO of google will be arrested witnin 1 second.
If you think you can equate human rights activists with someone like Osama, you must be living in the sky.

Besides, if the US government wanted to (or any country where Google operates), it can always ask Google to provide information about its users (it's part of Google's privacy policy), but not blatantly stealing information by compromising Google's servers, the Chinese government did.
 

mattster

Respected Member
Senior Member
Joined
May 30, 2009
Messages
1,149
Likes
788
Country flag
That is not true. You must be living in the sky.

In the other hand, if USA government found that Osama is using a gmail account. What will happen? I think USA government will ask google give all the information about this account. will google deny it by saying "freedom" or protecting "privacy"? Definitely not. otherwise the CEO of google will be arrested witnin 1 second.
Are you saying that you dont believe that China has executed political dissidents in the past ??

Which planet are you living on ??

Forget political dissidents like Uyghur separatists or even Tibetan monks who have been executed by the dozens maybe even hundreds(who knows the real numbers) - Even the docile and harmless Falun Gong believers have been tortured and killed in detention Go read the back issues of the Epoch times....they have documented it very well.

BTW......what makes you think that a country that ordered its own army to massacre thousands of its own unarmed citizens many of whom were students in Tianamen Square wont kill political dissidents ??

Wake up homey !!.....this is not Sweden or Denmark or India or Canada or the US that we are talking about here.

PS: Your understanding of the US system is very lame. No CEO is ever going to go to jail without a trial in a censorship situation.
 
Last edited:

amoy

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2010
Messages
5,982
Likes
1,841
Forget political dissidents like Uyghur separatists or even Tibetan monks who have been executed by the dozens maybe even hundreds(who knows the real numbers) - Even the docile and harmless Falun Gong believers have been tortured and killed in detention Go read the back issues of the Epoch times...
Those separatists had blood in their hands. Don't apply dual standards here - in India the army also is cracking down on separatists/Naxal (landless peasant uprising) insurgencies everyday. We're not living on another planet.

Harmless Falun - Harmless? Oh do u really have any ideas on what they're preaching? u may say China's regime is 'evil'. But don't tell those who're opposed to the 'Satan' are always innocent lambs.
 

mattster

Respected Member
Senior Member
Joined
May 30, 2009
Messages
1,149
Likes
788
Country flag
Those separatists had blood in their hands. Don't apply dual standards here - in India the army also is cracking down on separatists/Naxal (landless peasant uprising) insurgencies everyday. We're not living on another planet.

Harmless Falun - Harmless? Oh do u really have any ideas on what they're preaching? u may say China's regime is 'evil'. But don't tell those who're opposed to the 'Satan' are always innocent lambs.
My friend.....there are tons of Falun Gong believers among 1st generation Chinese Americans - I have personally met quite a few.
To date, not a single Falun Gong practitioner that I know of has ever been arrested, or detained by the US government, or any law enforcement agency for their beliefs.

If they Falun Gong are such a threat to the well-being of Society, then why is it that they are so free of pressure from the US government ??
In fact they even have their own newspaper - The Epoch Times which they distribute free-of-charge !!

Comparing armed Naxal separatists who have for the past 30-40 years terrorized people in various parts of India by beheading their victims, indiscriminate killing, etc., with Tibetan Monks who protest passively and who are some of the most passive peace-loving people in the world, and whose religion is absolutely opposed to violence, is in itself an absolutely pathetic argument.

Your sense of proportion is really out of whack.
 
Last edited:

amoy

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2010
Messages
5,982
Likes
1,841
Your sense of proportion is really out of whack.
Oh thanks for your flatter and courtesy. This thread is about Google's threat of exit from China. Then your elaboration evolves toward
political dissidents like Uyghur separatists or even Tibetan monks
what a well developed logic!

Frankly if not off topic I'm kind of pro-Google in this case as a netizen. However when it comes to Falun or Tibetan monks let's agree to differ - Falun followers as individuals may be nice people but not the cult itself. By the way it's similar to Aum Sinrikyo in Japan (click the link), Guru of which was sentenced to death by Japan. Of course u may continue to hold the belief that India's suppression on Naxals is justified while China's on separatists is NOT. Then the discussion has to be in another thread.
 

tarunraju

Sanathan Pepe
Mod
Joined
Sep 18, 2009
Messages
7,148
Likes
20,439
Country flag
. By the way it's similar to Aum Sinrikyo in Japan (click the link), Guru of which was sentenced to death by Japan.
No. That guy was put to death because he indulged in chemical warfare against Japan (spread poisonous gas in Tokyo's subway). I seriously doubt Tibetan monks do anything close to that (or even have the capability to do so).
 

amoy

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2010
Messages
5,982
Likes
1,841
In my context I referred to Falun as similar to Aum Shinrikyo. The founder Li Hongzhi claims to be the saviour of the world and whoever believes in him can be saved at the doomsday.

As for monks - I guess u put the emphasis on his religious identity whereas I disagree with 'his' non-religious activities. Kind of off topic, right?
 

no smoking

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
4,135
Likes
839
Country flag
My friend.....there are tons of Falun Gong believers among 1st generation Chinese Americans - I have personally met quite a few.
To date, not a single Falun Gong practitioner that I know of has ever been arrested, or detained by the US government, or any law enforcement agency for their beliefs.
My friend....there are more of anti-Falun Gong believers among each generation overseas chinese. I don't know if these Falun Gong partitioners break law in overseas or not, but I do know their behavior in China because I happened to know some victims of these believers.

If they Falun Gong are such a threat to the well-being of Society, then why is it that they are so free of pressure from the US government ??
In fact they even have their own newspaper - The Epoch Times which they distribute free-of-charge !!
US gov is not superior court of the earth, so US gov's decision cannot be used to prove your stance on Chinese gov's decision.

Regarding their Epoch time, free-of-charge is not a evidence of their kindness, anyone has strong financial support can make it. Actually, they tried to charge 50 cents for the chinese version in Australia, but later they found no one was willing to pay it. So, now, you can see how popular this religion is among overseas chinese.
 

Vinod2070

मध्यस्थ
Ambassador
Joined
Feb 22, 2009
Messages
2,557
Likes
103
Well, I don't think anyone can sincerely claim that China is an epitome of religious freedom. Communism thinks that religion is the opiate of the masses and China behaves according to that.

They will just allow enough of it that allows them to perpetuate their rule by keeping the masses down. Not so much where it becomes a threat in their perception.
 
Last edited:

no smoking

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
4,135
Likes
839
Country flag
Well, I don't think anyone can sincerely claim that China is an epitome of religious freedom. Communism thinks that religion is the opiate of the masses and China behaves according to that.

They will just allow enough of it that allows them to perpetuate their rule by keeping the masses down. Not so much where it becomes a threat in their perception.
Well, I do know that very few chinese take religions very seriously. Religions are not much higher than any fashion star.
 

mattster

Respected Member
Senior Member
Joined
May 30, 2009
Messages
1,149
Likes
788
Country flag
Regarding their Epoch time, free-of-charge is not a evidence of their kindness, anyone has strong financial support can make it. Actually, they tried to charge 50 cents for the chinese version in Australia, but later they found no one was willing to pay it. So, now, you can see how popular this religion is among overseas chinese.
This is funny - you are making my point for me.......Falun Gong is a small irrelevant spiritual organization that nobody really cares about either in China or the US.
They dont have a huge following, and they are very peaceful and the US government does not care a damn about what they are about.

But your great country China is scared shitless of an inconsequential fringe organization like Falun Gong to the point where they feel the need to arrest and torture and kill Falun Gong practitioners.
Now, please explain that to the readers of DFI.

China is like a shiny gleaming "house of cards" where the ruling party is so worried that all it takes is one small poke, and the whole thing comes crumbling down.

You are afraid of Falun Gong, The Dalai Lama, Uyghur Muslims, Buddhists, Christians, The Internet without censure, Taiwanese, peasant workers, etc, etc.

You are a paranoid moronic culture, and the world is slowly beginning to see you for what you are. Its not only Google but the whole world is slowly starting to figure you guys out.
All your pretty infrastructure and shiny cities cannot hide the inner rot.
 
Last edited:

amoy

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2010
Messages
5,982
Likes
1,841
If back to the theme about Google's pull-out I must confess to be in favour of Google as well as of a broader cyber freedom to access Youtube, Facebook alike despite their sometimes controversial content. However if roaming to Falun or Dalai Lama or religious freedom subjects apparently we have to agree to disagree. It's not 'afraid' but a disapproval for certain issues.

China or Chinese is by no means flawless, far from being a role model in most ways. BUT below is an OVER-GENERALIZATION beyond acceptance
You are a paranoid moronic culture
Do pls be specific in your accusation instead of using big words!

In fact Chinese is one of most SECULAR people in the world from my point of view. In the meantime Chinese is the most TOLERANT in religious freedom. Disagree? Then we have to follow it up in another thread, pretty lengthy!

My perception is u deliberately mix Chinese grassroots and the government up sometimes! Moreover u're wholely preoccupied by the 'dark' side alone which disable u to observe objectively. That's why u leaped to
All your pretty infrastructure and shiny cities cannot hide the inner rot.
without a sensible logical link.

"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
 

no smoking

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
4,135
Likes
839
Country flag
This is funny - you are making my point for me.......Falun Gong is a small irrelevant spiritual organization that nobody really cares about either in China or the US.
They dont have a huge following, and they are very peaceful and the US government does not care a damn about what they are about.
By contrast, you did think about it deeply! They don't have a huge following, then how did they get their money to support their activities? How can they distribute Epoch times for free? As I know, they never tried to get money from ordinary overseas chinese! Where does the money come from?

Actually, from the day this religion was set up, profit is always a big concern for the leader of them. Book, CD, VCD or even cloth with religious symbol were their product. Today, in overseas, they cannot sell these products to chinese any more because they found another big market: anti-china. They can get huge amount of financial support from all kinds of organisations that seek to "democrize" china. So, you won't be surprised that these so called "religion believer" has never come to you talking about their religion.

But your great country China is scared shitless of an inconsequential fringe organization like Falun Gong to the point where they feel the need to arrest and torture and kill Falun Gong practitioners.
Now, please explain that to the readers of DFI.
Since this organization only focus on making money while ignoring their followers live, there is no surprise that some of them would go to jail for it. Regarding killing, who told you this? Ah, yes, Falun Gong pratitioners. Just as the Iraq exile said everything to support US claim about WMD, Falun Gong would say anything to please their sponsors. The fact is no one knows if any killing happened. At least, all the Falun Gong pratitioners I knew in China are still alive.

China is like a shiny gleaming "house of cards" where the ruling party is so worried that all it takes is one small poke, and the whole thing comes crumbling down.

You are afraid of Falun Gong, The Dalai Lama, Uyghur Muslims, Buddhists, Christians, The Internet without censure, Taiwanese, peasant workers, etc, etc.

You are a paranoid moronic culture, and the world is slowly beginning to see you for what you are. Its not only Google but the whole world is slowly starting to figure you guys out.
All your pretty infrastructure and shiny cities cannot hide the inner rot.
Looks like someone is getting mad! Watching and smiling......
 

mattster

Respected Member
Senior Member
Joined
May 30, 2009
Messages
1,149
Likes
788
Country flag
If back to the theme about Google's pull-out I must confess to be in favour of Google as well as of a broader cyber freedom to access Youtube, Facebook alike despite their sometimes controversial content. However if roaming to Falun or Dalai Lama or religious freedom subjects apparently we have to agree to disagree. It's not 'afraid' but a disapproval for certain issues.

China or Chinese is by no means flawless, far from being a role model in most ways. BUT below is an OVER-GENERALIZATION beyond acceptance
Nobody is talking about being flawless. Forget that !! We are talking about minimal standards of human freedom and decency.

Look Man - let me give you a better example......in the past one 2 months alone - 3 countries UK, USA, and India have made public statement by senior ministers and organizations like MI5 in the UK alleging that China is hacking into public and private companies and even personal email of citizens in these countries.
Think about this for a moment. MI5 actually contacted 300 companies in the UK, and warned them about Chinese hacking. Its common for countries to spy on each other on military and political levels but China is trying to even target public and private enterprises. MI5 contacting 300 companies to warn them about Chinese hackers is unprecedented.
In India a senior government minister raised this issue. In the US, Obama is asking the Chinese government for answers.

If you dont believe me, then here is the link to the thread started by daredevil, Read it for yourself:

http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/showthread.php?8322-China-bugs-and-burgles-Britain&p=113578

You cant tell me that you are so bloody naive to think that such a huge organized spying expedition is the work of a few hackers. Its as obvious as hell to anyone that this is a state-sponsored activity that is funded by the state. and then you hear about the Google case - where Google China employees with access to confidential servers and email accounts were working for the state government and sabotaging the company from the inside.

This is what I mean when I say that you are a PARANOID NATION. How much more proof do you need ???

In fact Chinese is one of most SECULAR people in the world from my point of view. In the meantime Chinese is the most TOLERANT in religious freedom. Disagree? Then we have to follow it up in another thread, pretty lengthy!
If you are so TOLERANT, then why are so many peaceful people of faith and political prisoners sitting in your prisons. Even Tibetan Buddhist monks who wouldn't hurt a fly are sitting in your prisons. Many of already been killed.

You Chinese think that anytime anyone criticizes China, its because they are envious of China economic success. You are mistaken. No one is disputing your economic success, even if it is very uneven. The issue is that despite all your economic success and military power, you government still acts like a paranoid tin-pot dictatorship.

China is like a banana-republic superpower.
 
Last edited:

singa

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 2, 2009
Messages
42
Likes
3
Are you saying that you dont believe that China has executed political dissidents in the past ??
what I am doubting is after 10 minutes trial someone is executed.


PS: Your understanding of the US system is very lame. No CEO is ever going to go to jail without a trial in a censorship situation.
That is because of CEO in US will definitely cooperate with the government.

Are you sure US army have never shot their unarmed citizens? Please look back the history of US.
In Canada, how is the culture of Inuit? Was their culture destroyed? Were a lot of them forced to convert to Catholicism?

In my pointed of view, every country has its dirty history.

I think this might happen in India. Please check this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEMU91B1Ftg&feature=related
 
Last edited:

tarunraju

Sanathan Pepe
Mod
Joined
Sep 18, 2009
Messages
7,148
Likes
20,439
Country flag
This kind of confirms my suspicion. It was an IP issue, afterall.

Google China hackers stole source code: researcher
The hackers behind the attacks on Google Inc and dozens of other companies operating in China stole valuable computer source code by breaking into the personal computers of employees with privileged access, a security firm said on Wednesday.

The hackers targeted a small number of employees who controlled source code management systems, which handle the myriad changes that developers make as they write software, said George Kurtz, chief technology officer at anti-virus software maker McAfee Inc.

The details from McAfee show how the breach of just a single PC at a large corporation can have widespread repercussions across the broader business.

Google said in January that it had detected a cyber attack originating from China on its corporate infrastructure that resulted in the theft of its intellectual property.

Google said more than 20 other companies had been infiltrated, and cited the attack, as well as Chinese Web censorship practices, as reasons for the company to consider pulling out of China.


The Chinese government has said that Google's claim that it was attacked by hackers based in China was "groundless." Kurtz said on Wednesday that he believes that the hackers, who have not been apprehended, broke through the defenses of at least 30 companies, and perhaps as many as 100.


He said the common link in several of the cases that McAfee reviewed is that the hackers used source code management software from privately held Perforce Software Inc, whose customers include Google and many other large corporations.


"It is very easy to compromise the systems," Kurtz said. Perforce President Christopher Seiwald said McAfee performed its analysis on a version of the Alameda, California-based company's software that had many of its security settings disabled.


Customers typically enable those settings, he said. Kurtz said the hackers succeeded in stealing source code from several of their victims. The attackers also had an opportunity to change the source code without the companies' knowledge, perhaps adding functions so the hackers could later secretly spy on computers running that software, Kurtz said.


But investigators have yet to uncover any evidence that suggests that they made such changes, he said. McAfee, the world's No. 2 security software maker, has spent the past few months investigating the attacks.


It declined to identify its clients. Other makers of source code management programs include International Business Machines Corp, Microsoft Corp and privately held Serena Software Inc.

Source
 

tarunraju

Sanathan Pepe
Mod
Joined
Sep 18, 2009
Messages
7,148
Likes
20,439
Country flag
Google "99.9 pct" sure to shut China search engine: report

Talks with China over censorship have reached an apparent impasse and Google, the world's largest search engine, is now "99.9 percent" certain to shut its Chinese search engine, the Financial Times said on Saturday.

It said in a report on its website Google had drawn up detailed plans for closing its Chinese search engine.

The newspaper cited a person familiar with the company's thinking as saying that, while a decision could be made very soon, Google was likely to take some time to follow through with its plans.

That would be in order to bring about an orderly closure as the company takes steps to protect local employees from retaliation by authorities, it said.

China warned Google on Friday against flouting the country's laws, as expectations grow for a resolution to a public battle over censorship and cyber-security.

Google shocked business and political circles in January when it threatened to pull out of China if it could not offer an unfiltered Chinese search engine. The threat came after cyber attacks originating from China on it and about 30 other firms.

"If you don't respect Chinese laws, you are unfriendly and irresponsible, and the consequences will be on you," China's Minister of Industry and Information Technology, Li Yizhong, told reporters on Friday in answer to a question on what China would do if Google.cn simply stopped filtering search results.

That came after the chief executive of Google, Eric Schmidt, said on Wednesday he hoped to announce soon a result to talks with Chinese authorities on offering an uncensored search engine in China.

The Ministry of Industry and Information Technology shares oversight of the Chinese Internet with a number of other bodies. Still more bureaucracies are involved in matters of foreign investment, complicating the Chinese government's response to Google's challenge.

Reuters, via NewsDaily
 

nimo_cn

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2009
Messages
4,003
Likes
824
Country flag
Google denies 'exit China' rumor

Beijing - Google on Thursday denied it was planning to shut down its business in China by the end of the month, dispelling rumors that it had informed its Chinese advertising agents to cease their business operations in the country.

Google's spokeswoman Marsha Wang told China Daily on Thursday that the company had not ordered its domestic advertising agents to stop doing business.

"That's not possible. Our China operations are still at normal," Wang said.

Google's China team continued to develop new services, hire people and its businesses were "as usual", Wang said.

In fact, two of Google's domestic adv ertising agencies also confirmed to China Daily on Thursday that their business was "running well".

Rumors about Google's possible retreat from China were running high on Thursday ever since its CEO Eric Schmidt said at a media summit in Abu Dhabi a day earlier that he expected "something will happen soon" about its high-profile spat with China.

Schmidt had said on Wednesday that Google's dispute with China would be solved "soon" and that the search giant was still in active negotiations with Chinese officials.

China's Ministry of Industry and Information Technology refused to comment on the Google issue on Thursday.

But Qin Gang, the Foreign Ministry spokesman said at a regular press briefing that "the communication channel between relevant Chinese ministries and foreign Internet operators is running well."

Qin also reiterated that foreign Internet operators should respect Chinese law while doing business in the country.

Google sent shockwaves across the business and political world when it declared on Jan 12 that it would stop censoring Chinese search results, and said it was considering pulling out of the country.

The announcement quickly turned into a political spat between Beijing and the US administration, which is weighing the merits of taking the dispute to the World Trade Organization.

Most industry experts believe that Google's likely exit from China may be a lose-lose deal for the search leader and China.

Top Chinese officials have, during the past few days, also sounded ambiguous over whether Google was still in talks to resolve the issue or not, signaling the difficulties for the two parties to achieve any sort of meaningful agreement.

Chinese officials attending the Two Sessions over the last few days have repeatedly urged Google to respect related laws of China

But a senior Google official said on Wednesday that the company had not changed its decision to stop censoring its Chinese language search site and that it was prepared to shutter the website if necessary. Tao Wenzhao, an expert on US studies at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, said it would be a lose-lose deal if Google retreated from China.

A series of conflicts between the two powers, ranging from the US move to sell arms to Taiwan and US President Barack Obama's meeting with the Dalai Lama, have put the ties on ice.

Tensions, however, now appear to be easing after Washington sent two high-level officials earlier this month to mend relations.

Tao said even if Google finally decided to exit from China, the incident would have little impact on the soured relations between Beijing and Washington.

"It is worth remembering that Google is not the American government. This is just a commercial case," Tao said.

Tan Yingzi in Washington contributed to the story

http://www.chinadaily.cn/china/2010-03/12/content_9577021.htm
 

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top