Why did Russia approve RD 93 engine sale for Pakistan's JF 17?

[A.V.]

ok first things first as vladimir has clearly pointed out abot the jf-17 capabilities there is no need to discuss that lets stick to the original topic

now the sales of the engines were many times discussed in the past people here have missed a very important point just have a look at the date when these deal was agreed upon its very close to the developments where india started taking the american line and voted against iran in the IAEA after pressurized by america on the nuke deal. for india hey played their cards well they did not let the nuke deal go out of hand and kept on pleasing america because because without them the deal was impossible right after the deal they signed nuclear supply agreement with russia and france this shows that india did well on the whole issue but they shoud have taken into confidence their strategic partner on international boards russia as well which they didnt
russia got the picture that india is getting too close to the americans for their liking and even voted against iran which was really something russia could not digest as they were looking to form a 3 nation strategic group
russia felt they had to take a stand to this because they might be losing their most important market and startegic partner in south asia
as result putin himself took it on him to give agreen signal to the deal it was better in a way because they got the old stuff as vlad pointed out with the link in previous page.


about jf-17 remember china is not inducting its in its air-force while they speak very highly about their j-10b everywhere including this forum but the jf-17 is never to be found except in the minds of some pakistani members who are fanboys and nothing more THAT RESTS THE JF-17 CASE

 

[Martian]

If I understand you (A.V.) correctly, you're saying that the Russians were trying to pressure the Indians into not becoming overtly too pro-American. It was a pointed reminder by Putin that Russia can generously arm the other side, Pakistan. I find the argument persuasive.

First, if you make Putin unhappy, he'll let you know (i.e. see Georgia). Second, it makes perfect geopolitical sense. Don't tip too much in favor of the Americans or we could become enemies. In this political context, the Russian move of selling engines for the JF 17 makes sense.

 

[Sridhar]

Igorr , a Russian Blogger who is also a member of this forums has this to say

Indeed, many years (more than 5) Russia repeatedly refused to sell the RD variant with increased thrust to China. One cause for this – is Indian pressure and the agreement between two nations for not allowing China have more advanced weapons than India. The second – Russia by self doesn't want China to be too assertive, so the weapons sold for China were always inferior in some degree relative to what Moscow sells to Delhi.

But the technological development is continuing. Sometimes you must run for keeping your place. Russia cannot refuse to sell 9 t RD-93 engine for China infinitely (till now it sold only 8.3 t thrust variant). It because the China copy WS-13 (with 7.8 t thrust) is gradually improved and becoming close in its characteristics to the regular RD-93. If Russia refuses now it will lose both the market and the leverage on China. So, the refusing loses its sense.

Bharat Rakshak • View topic - LCA news and discussion

 

[Martian]

I was under the impression that the Russians were abusing their Market Power and trampling Indian (their biggest customer) interests with impunity. Given the context, it's reassuring that the Russian action was based on rational geopolitical and economic reasons.

 

[ahmedsid]

I will add another angle to this, Call this weird, but its Possible.

India Protested and Russia still sold the engines.

What If, it was something of an understanding between the russians and indians?? I mean the JF17 will be the backbone of the PAF, and Using Russian engines they will be dependent on the Russians, just like they are dependent on the US for the F16s!!!

What If Russian agreed to freeze service during Wartime and impose sanctions just like the US does?? In this case the Russians get the Money, and the Indians get what they want, a Weak PAF during hostilities!!!

 

[Martian]

"What If Russian agreed to freeze service during Wartime and impose sanctions just like the US does?? In this case the Russians get the Money, and the Indians get what they want, a Weak PAF during hostilities!!!"

I agree that this is possible. I don't think it's a weird idea. This kind of "understanding" would serve the interests of both India and Russia. It is actually quite rational and logical. If this is your original idea then congrats.

 

[Martian]

Good point salahsiwati. The Russians were smart to cash in on roughly one billion dollars in total RD 93 engine sales. China has made great strides in developing indigenous engine technology. See This is the real face of Taihang (WS-10) Turbofan Engine!|China Military Power Mashup If Russia had not supplied the RD 93, China would have selected one of her own engines; not quite as good yet, but as long as it does the job.

 

[Sridhar]

What is not clear from the report is whether president Putin "personally supervised" the original deal with China for supply of the engines, or its re-export to Pakistan.

domain-b.com : Putin clears sale of RD-93 fighter jet engines by China to Pakistan, says report

 

[StealthSniper]

I will add another angle to this, Call this weird, but its Possible.

India Protested and Russia still sold the engines.

What If, it was something of an understanding between the russians and indians?? I mean the JF17 will be the backbone of the PAF, and Using Russian engines they will be dependent on the Russians, just like they are dependent on the US for the F16s!!!

What If Russian agreed to freeze service during Wartime and impose sanctions just like the US does?? In this case the Russians get the Money, and the Indians get what they want, a Weak PAF during hostilities!!!

Yeah that is a possible angle Ahmed. Maybe India and Russia do have a plan to hurt Pakistan in the long term. And what better idea then to get into their market and if they act up shut off their supply and help they are giving them. I do think that their is more then meets the eye and a political battle is being played.

 

[ZOOM]

In my opinion, Russians were looking to cash in on emerging light fighter jet market in the world. Till now, Russians haven't embarked upon any major light fighter jet program and its subseqent export. Rather they concentrated their energy on medium and heavy class fighter jet. Gradually, maintenance cost and servicing has becoming a major issue for heavy fighter jet operators like IAF and PLAAF. And hence both this forces are now looking to have light weight fighter jet which can perform dual role. Russians may thaught that, rather then augmenting a complete program for light fighter jet for export purpose, they must rather concentrate on selling Engines, subsystems and avionics alongwith radar to all the light weight fighter jet program in the world, since for them light weight fighter jet program from scratch was costly affair. In the meanwhile, they seen JF-17 program started by China as a major potential product in which they can integrate their engines like RD-33, at the same time, Russians were fully aware about the fact that China will going to mass produce JF-17 for export purpose.

 

[ppgj]

russia sells china, which is our main threat much more sophisticated equipment. that is the more important point we need to think about.

But my question is why irk India(a $30 billion pa budget industry) for a RD-93 sale to pakistan( <3 billion industry)?

it is deliberate. remember india has been turning american in the recent past. p-8i, c-130, jalashwa etc.. india is a big defence market. having entrenched itself russia does not want to be eased out. apart from the profit they make it also brings capital for a higher research so they maintain their position in defence market. so it is a smart snub to behave.

It just does not make any Business sense.

more than the business it is making a point.

 

[badguy2000]

simple explainantion is that :

CHinese has WS13 as a alternative for RD93.....so JF17 would not be put off ,even if Russia block RD93....
of course ,if Russia were to reall block RD93, Russia would obtain nothing ,except losing a big order of engines.

 

[nitesh]

simple explainantion is that :

CHinese has WS13 as a alternative for RD93.....so JF17 would not be put off ,even if Russia block RD93....
of course ,if Russia were to reall block RD93, Russia would obtain nothing ,except losing a big order of engines.

Hogwash, Pakistanis are still not looking at WS 13 they are still looking for western engines. WS 13 is not a viable option

 

[ppgj]

that is really smart thinking. however,

India Protested and Russia still sold the engines.

it is a snub for turning west but by protesting they have made their point.

What If, it was something of an understanding between the russians and indians?? I mean the JF17 will be the backbone of the PAF, and Using Russian engines they will be dependent on the Russians, just like they are dependent on the US for the F16s!!!

but it only matter of time when chinese will have their engine as igorr's report shows. in any case i don't think either china or pakistan will be naive to fall into the trap.

What If Russian agreed to freeze service during Wartime and impose sanctions just like the US does?? In this case the Russians get the Money, and the Indians get what they want, a Weak PAF during hostilities!!!

that is why they are getting 1000 engines. plus chinese would have mastered their own version by then.

 

[Sridhar]

Chinese Aerospace engine situation.

China Air and Naval Power: Aerospace Engine situation with the big transport

 

[ppgj]

Just because the Indian Defense Department is spineless or corrupt, it does not mean that India should kowtow to greedy Russia.

question is neither indian corruption nor russian greed. it was, as indian navy admitted, a miscalculation on part of russians of the extent of damage to gorshkov. still at the end of it, it will be cheaper than any in the same class. infact indian navy chief went on record to say- he will give a blank cheque right away if somebody can buy a similar ship for a similar amount. i think we are making too much out of gorshkov controversy. however it would have been better if the russians instead of giving it for free had made a proper assessment of the ship.

Who agrees with me that the billion(s) should be spent on the indigenous INS Vikrant and Indian farmers?

though i admire your pacifist position, the fact remains india faces grave threats from both west and north/east and which are real. world is a lot more complex my friend.

 

[Quickgun Murugan]

simple explainantion is that :

CHinese has WS13 as a alternative for RD93.....so JF17 would not be put off ,even if Russia block RD93....
of course ,if Russia were to reall block RD93, Russia would obtain nothing ,except losing a big order of engines.

If WS 13 was a serious contender then why did'nt the chinese prefer it over RD 93?

Chinese are trying hard to build fighter engines but are failing to satisfy PLAF. Why are you still dependent on AL -31F engines for J10 and J11 when some chinese claim WS 10 performs better?

Its a fact that the art of fighter engine manufacture belongs to only a few countries and Russia is one of its best.

 

[Quickgun Murugan]

I will add another angle to this, Call this weird, but its Possible.

India Protested and Russia still sold the engines.

What If, it was something of an understanding between the russians and indians?? I mean the JF17 will be the backbone of the PAF, and Using Russian engines they will be dependent on the Russians, just like they are dependent on the US for the F16s!!!

What If Russian agreed to freeze service during Wartime and impose sanctions just like the US does?? In this case the Russians get the Money, and the Indians get what they want, a Weak PAF during hostilities!!!

Thats a nice angle but i tend to disagree. First of all the chinese signed the end user agreement for RD-93 not Paksitan. I don't think Russia will earn the scorn of China by freezing RD-93 parts.After-all, china is bigger importer of Russian products.

Secondly, Chinese have ordered 1000 such engines from Russia, but Pakistan intends to produce 250 of them in a decade's time. So, technically, Chinese will have enough spares to supply Pakistan's existing aircraft's.

 

[Quickgun Murugan]

ok first things first as vladimir has clearly pointed out abot the jf-17 capabilities there is no need to discuss that lets stick to the original topic

now the sales of the engines were many times discussed in the past people here have missed a very important point just have a look at the date when these deal was agreed upon its very close to the developments where india started taking the american line and voted against iran in the IAEA after pressurized by america on the nuke deal. for india hey played their cards well they did not let the nuke deal go out of hand and kept on pleasing america because because without them the deal was impossible right after the deal they signed nuclear supply agreement with russia and france this shows that india did well on the whole issue but they shoud have taken into confidence their strategic partner on international boards russia as well which they didnt
russia got the picture that india is getting too close to the americans for their liking and even voted against iran which was really something russia could not digest as they were looking to form a 3 nation strategic group
russia felt they had to take a stand to this because they might be losing their most important market and startegic partner in south asia
as result putin himself took it on him to give agreen signal to the deal it was better in a way because they got the old stuff as vlad pointed out with the link in previous page.

Though your Iran argument makes some sense, I really don't think Russia got snapped when India voted against Iran. See, It was only a month before Putin had inked the RD 93 deal that India signed the JV agreement for PAK-FA FGFA. So, if Russia was really pissed why did it have to offer this JV to India, when at that time Brazil was ready to sign it?

However as Shridhar has quoted

ussia cannot refuse to sell 9 t RD-93 engine for China infinitely (till now it sold only 8.3 t thrust variant). It because the China copy WS-13 (with 7.8 t thrust) is gradually improved and becoming close in its characteristics to the regular RD-93. If Russia refuses now it will lose both the market and the leverage on China. So, the refusing loses its sense.

makes more sense!

 

[Vladimir79]

T

makes more sense!

No, China hasn't had enough time and experience with the RD-93 to even be able to have a prototype built of WS-18 if that is what it is based on. That engine must still be in the design phase. I looked over the net and found nothing on actual WS-18 advancement.