'What can India do if there's another 26/11? Nothing!'

[tarunraju]

No, war is not all that bad, I fully agree with you. But we have seen the result of the war and the humiliation of the Pakistani forces in 1971. What did change after that? Nothing, not one thing. Why it did not change? Because whoever came to power after Yahya was himself from the ruling elite class, a disciple of former dictators, Iskander Mirza and Ayub Khan.

The situation in Pakistan is still not any different. If today the two countries go for a war, I can give you in writing that Pakistani forces will be defeated badly. Yet, this will change nothing, because the people who will replace them are still from the ruling elite class. That is why, I am suggesting that India has to work at grass root level. If there comes a revolution in Pakistan against the ruling elites and India has played a rule in it, perhaps that will solve the problem once for all.

Firstly, thanks a lot for being so proactive and constructive in this debate.

Pakistan's elite class, at least on paper, is a federal democracy. The objectives of a revolution, while would aim at toppling this elite class, will be to radically change it. Which again means that you have to switch from democracy to another mode of legislature. Your repeated mentions of an almost invincible elite class shows me that the bulk of the revolution would be a 'class-struggle', you know what I'm getting at.

The only way I see that Pakistan can prosper while maintaining the present political system, would be:

• Facilitating the rise of the liberal, civil-society at the expense of the conservative fundamentalist one, quantitatively
• Working against fundamentalist elements, and ensuring education to all classes, and more importantly, both genders
• Maintain healthy people-to-people contact with your neighbour
• Work towards a border dispute solution that is less opportunistic, more in accordance with status-quo ante bellum (nothing changes territorially, you retain the territory you control and recognize the territory that you don't as the other's), and close the dispute

That will end our rivalry once and for all, and Pakistanis will be planning weekend drives to Agra. You know what, even India is in dire need of doing the above. Utopian as it seems, it isn't.

 

[qsaark]

qsaark isn't there a fear in the baluchis that if the pakistani punjabis allow the Chinese in they will pillage baluchistan of all the resources that belong to the Baluchis ?

No, there is no such fear among the Baloch that the Chinese will do bad things to them. The fear is, which is based on the experience (I gave Sandek project as an example) that Islamabad will never give the fair share to Baolchistan. If you are referring to the killing of the Chinese engineers, well, many foreign nationals including French are also targeted by the unknown militants.

 

[qsaark]

tarunraju, an excellent post by you. You have literally summed up everything very concisely.

 

[prahladh]

First step is to strengthen the Indian law , Security personnel ( corrupt free CBI, NIA, RAW, Cops etc) and avoid incidents like Gujrat riots, Babri Masjid which pour oil into flames set by our enemies. One more incident and terrorist don't need to infiltrate, you will find them locally. Need to punish people involved in such incidents and convey a strong message to the people that we are truly secular.

- The author is not an astrologer but he is right about our past record. More people died in 1993 bomb blasts and other blasts with no improvement in our stance.

- I agree with most members that an eye-wash war will not solve anything but total destruction of Pak (every inch) will solve it forever (god forbid such war). All the previous wars were premature ends with other countries intervening and making both side sign treaty/ceasefire (which are usually strictly followed by India only).

- I think Israel (Mossad) has done lot of covert ops but with no permanent solution. Same in our case too.

 

[1.44]

Possibly one of the constructive measures that can be taken is to increase the people-to-people contacts between the two countries.Make attempts at making the people of Pakistan aware to our demands and troubles.Every assertive demand India makes is boiled down to nationalistic chest thumping.Granted there have been indications in the past as such but neither India or Pakistan can afford a full-scale war or start one unless direct posturing by the other side.
But the attitude that every time the subject of 26/11 is mentioned the speculation of military strike by India also comes to the fore will not go away unless people of both sides interact and stop viewing each other as mortal enemies.

 

[thakur_ritesh]

to begin with, i would not like to write off najam sethi as just another person high on rhetoric, he is one of those very few who have dared the military of pakistan, and if im not mistaken also locked horns with nawaz sharif when he was the pm, who is also a very important part of the civil society of pakistan which is actively working for peace with india and for a flourishing democracy in pakistan but then again he has had a past where he is seen to be extremely emotional about issues and while discussing issues has shown traits of getting carried away.

there is an on going discussion/debate in pakistan on how they are pushing for talks to be restored with india but india on its part has been side stepping from the issue and quite conveniently putting pressure on them to deliver on the dismantling of the terror network and in the bargain their demand of a dialog is not being heeded to. this is being seen as a “give in” on pakistan's part, with nothing to gain. probably he is fearing that certain hawks would make use of the situation, come center stage and then try and prove a point that no matter what one does, india gives a damn and probably that point is being carried home through certain media houses to their audience at this very moment.

a valid concern, but the question is what would have pakistan done if they were in our place, would they also not tried to make sure that their adversary give up on sponsoring terrorism which kills hundreds of people all through out the year? pakistan has to learn to understand and respect that some mere lip service is certainly not going to help the cause any more, we have borne the brunt of terrorism way too long and 26/11 was a watershed moment which crossed the limits for most indians, and there is public anger that gets fueled each time there is a flip flop on the 26/11 trail, on a serious note that trail has still not been started in pakistan and then every now and then the likes of hafees saeed's are treated as some kind of messiah and a state guest in the country, who co-incidentally is the prime suspect of that terror attack on india. given this pakistan expects india to begin talks with out any apprehensions, someone must be out of their minds expecting that.

he does carry one important point on having discussions and anyways how long can the two neighbors stay without a dialog, it has to happen but for that to happen pakistan has to show sincerity on its part and only then the idea of discussions can be sold to indians at large and this sincerity can only get a stamp of approval from indian public when some concrete action gets taken against the perpetrators of 26/11. as far as GoI is concerned, they have a bigger concern than to have a dialog with pakistan at the moment and that is to make sure that they do well in the forth coming assembly elections, and one such state to have elections is maharastra where 26/11 happened, so the real intent of GoI will only be known post these elections are over, so mr najam sethi needs to wait a little longer before he comes to final judgment on the intent of GoI.

as far as use of nuclear bombs and their use on india is concerned, well that is more of a psyops launched by a certain section of pakistan establishment, least such a point be put forward to have sane discussions or else one comes across more of a mouth piece of such an establishment which he certainly is not and this is certainly a point where mr sethi has got carried away with the flow of his emotions.

as to what will be the reaction of india if another 26/11 were to happen in the near future, i am sure mr sethi would be in for a surprise, probably he does not still quiet understand what a certain 26/11 has done to the psyche of a common indian something no present and future indian government can afford to over look. india would certainly retaliate and the advice to the pakistan armed forces would be if the same is tried be ready for some low scale low intensity conflict!

we want good relations with pakistan but certainly not at the cost of another 26/11, and that is what we are trying to ensure that next time when negotiations happen between the two countries there is no room left for such incidents to happen.

 

[ppgj]

Yes, the masses know what their agencies and ruling classes are doing, but they are helpless. Yes the civil society is aware, but who listens to the civil society? You are talking about a place where an innocent College Professor is beaten up by an ordinary sepoy, and threatened to be turned in on terrorism charges only because he (Professor) wanted to help a Sikh pessenger travelling in the same coach (I'll write about this shameful incident in details seperately) and the whole episode goes unreported in English newspapers. Only because the English newspapers are read by the ruling elite class. Look at me, how helpless I am? To voice my concerns, I need the help of a non-Pakistani forum.

qsaark, i do appreciate your constructive and honest debate. you talk about the helplessness of the masses and the civil society and i can, just as many others here, understand that. but how is it that it was the same masses and civil society which was up in protest on the roads against one individual general who was also their president. infact it was nothing short of a revolution. but when it comes to india (the problems have been for decades), it is life as usual. so the question is are they really helpless?. or is pakistan a banana republic? which i think, it is not. help me out friend in understanding this dichotomy in pakistan civil society and its masses.

 

[nitesh]

Well seeing the moves doen by GoI I remember Pakistanis brag about "Death by thousand cuts" to India now I think GoI has decided on policy "Death by thousand dossiers"

 

[proud_hindustani]

Many terrorists attacks have taken places in India and a lot of people have died. Selfish Indian political leaders are expert at saying " we will take serious steps, we will increase our securities, we will give tough answers to terrorists and blah blah. They are complete failure at fulfing their promises.

There was no repeat of 9/11 in USA and there was no repeat of Bali incident in Indonesia. why, because their government is not like our corrupted Indian government.

All oldies in our political leaders should be eliminated and show them a path to Haridwar where they can live a stress free life, peacefully thinking of god and die peacefully. We need young people in our politics. Congress can become a strong party if Rahul Gandhi serves as a PM

 

[mehwish92]

Many terrorists attacks have taken places in India and a lot of people have died. Selfish Indian political leaders are expert at saying " we will take serious steps, we will increase our securities, we will give tough answers to terrorists and blah blah. They are complete failure at fulfing their promises.

There was no repeat of 9/11 in USA and there was no repeat of Bali incident in Indonesia. why, because their government is not like our corrupted Indian government.

All oldies in our political leaders should be eliminated and show them a path to Haridwar where they can live a stress free life, peacefully thinking of god and die peacefully. We need young people in our politics. Congress can become a strong party if Rahul Gandhi serves as a PM

You are forgetting one major thing: neither Bali nor the USA share a 1800 km border with Pakistan.

Besides, What do you expect India to do? The steps taken by the US in the long run will only damage their interests even further. They are making more and more enemies by the day. Back at home even their draconian laws etc are alienating a huge community. Yes the US has been successful in preventing another terrorist attack inside their territory, but the cost of all this is too high.

Within India also, you have to understand how porous our borders are. Anybody can sneak in from Nepal or Bangladesh or Myanmar. Our government can go the USA way and start suspecting every Muslim man it sees. That'll only lead to more terrorism, more alienation, more riots, and thus a gaping hole in the fabric that makes India what it is. Many Muslims in India already feel they re being targetted simply because they are Muslim.

You can increase security all you want. But as long as that threat is still there our country is not safe. Take Pakistan. Every school/hotel/market is being turned into a fortified area surrounded by armed forces. Does that make Pakistan any safer? You're still afraid to go out.

Even in India things are so bad nowadays that you cannot take cell phones or cameras into many tourist sites. Even to get into malls you have to go through security checks, which is a huge nuisance if you ask me.

What you need to do is resolve the core issue, because you cannot stop a person from making a home-made bomb and leaving it in a busy market.

And different people have a different perception of what the core issue is.

- Some people say it's Kashmir. Resolve Kashmir dispute and things will be solved.

- Others say the problem is Pakistan. As long as Pakistan is in existence terrorism in India (and the world) will remain -- even if Kashmir dispute is resolved.

But again, here what do you expect our government to do? We can't nuke Pakistan. They'd definitely retaliate. And Kashmir issue is so complex that its never going to be resolved until all three parties (India, Pakistan, Kashmiris) make some compromises.

Take the Maoists even. They are taking up armed struggle for a specific reason. Our rural areas have been neglected for far too long. If the government does not resolve this issue soon and keeps treating the naxalite issue as a terrorist menace, then this problem will only get worse and worse. Let this menace grow, and the Naxalites will do to India what the Taliban have done to Pakistan.

Take home message: you cannot solve the problem of terrorism without resolving the core conflict. It's for you to decide how to do that.
Cut our politicians some slack. There's only so much they can do when it comes to this issue.

 

[tharikiran]

All oldies in our political leaders should be eliminated and show them a path to Haridwar where they can live a stress free life, peacefully thinking of god and die peacefully. We need young people in our politics. Congress can become a strong party if Rahul Gandhi serves as a PM

What to we do when the young are corrupted ? What do we do when the young like you and me are not willing to stand up and take responsibilities. Rahul Gandhi doesn't have some magic wand in his hand and is not going to solve all the problems that our country has.It's good that you are frustrated. It's good that you are not happy with the current system. We can always improve. We are a democracy. We are a work in progress. With more people like you and me , we will reach there... where the cops and the politicians and the Govt. servants can't be bought with money. Blaming all the politicians is not right either. We have some very good guys... young and old.From Omar Abdullah to Mr. Chidambaram.

26/11 was a watershed moment. It shook up the way the system/intelligence works.
The Israleli's with all their walls and blockades can't avoid the suicide attacks.
We got some way to reach the Israeli levels.