What and who is "The West" ?

civfanatic

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Here is an informative documentary on Europe's pioneering of modern scientific racism, based on the Social Darwinist ideal:

 
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asianobserve

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Congratulations, you just turned this thread into Indo-Aryan Invasion Thread #872643291

Let's assume for a moment that upper-caste Indians really are the descendants of tall, fair-skinned, blue-eyed conquerors who subsequently lorded over the hapless, short, primitive, dark-skinned, Dravidian natives. This did not prevent India from producing the world's first truly humanistic ideology, Buddhism (which, btw, explicitly rejected the caste system), or one of the world's first examples of codified human and animal rights (Ashoka's Pillars). Nor is there is a single instance in history where Indians committed something that can be compared to the numerous racially-motivated genocides performed by Europeans across the world. So for a society that is supposedly built on racial discrimination, I say that India historically has done a pretty good job, especially when compared to the supposed relatives of the Indian upper-castes.

Ashoka may have converted to Buddhism and pave the way for that religion's dramatic rise, but he did so only after the brutally murderous Battle of Kalinga.

Anyway, I think you're too preoccupied with demonizing the West that you often overlook (I hope not intentional) the rather well known discrimination of the Dalits for ages in your country. I'm sure there were numerous unorganised series of killings of discriminated Dalits throughout the history of the Caste System. But on more recent dates this article has mentioned caste related killings from 1987.... Caste-related violence in India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

asianobserve

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Here is an informative documentary on Europe's pioneering of modern scientific racism, based on the Social Darwinist ideal:

Then Caste System is Indian's centuries old crude racism... (Europeans still exhibited more finesse by going scientific in racism).

But don't get me wrong, I agree that Europeans have been crudely racists (some still are now). But I think racism is something natural when you have a homogeneous culture/race looking at other race, especially if the latter are shorter and dark skinned (this never fails).
 
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civfanatic

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Ashoka may have converted to Buddhism and pave the way for that religion's dramatic rise, but he did so only after the brutally murderous Battle of Kalinga.
So? Europeans were brutally murderous until just 60 years ago, and it took the carnage of WWII to drill some sense into their heads. There was nothing comparable to Buddhist/Ashokan ideals in the West until the Enlightenment in the 18th century, and even then supremacism still prevailed.


Anyway, I think you're too preoccupied with demonizing the West that you often overlook (I hope not intentional) the rather well known discrimination of the Dalits for ages in your country. I'm sure there were numerous unorganised series of killings of discriminated Dalits throughout the history of the Caste System. But on more recent dates this article has mentioned caste related killings from 1987.... Caste-related violence in India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Dalits are discriminated and targeted by useless, lunatic segments of the population. There is no state-sanctioned oppression of Dalits (in fact, the exact opposite takes place in the form of reservations). No gas chambers or concentration camps have ever been built for them. Please do not compare the situation of Dalits/Adivasis in India with the racially-motivated European genocides throughout history, because quite frankly they are incomparable.

Discrimination based on birth/caste has been the object of protest in India for at least 2,500 years. We are in the process of purging the remnants of backward ideals, but it will take some time.


Then Caste System is Indian's centuries old crude racism... (Europeans still exhibited more finesse by going scientific in racism).
The problem is that the caste system isn't racism. It is virtually impossible to differentiate between upper-caste and lower-caste Indians based on physical appearance alone. There are plenty of dark-skinned brahmins and light-skinned shudras, myself included. Castes (jati would be the more accurate term) are socioeconomic groupings, not racial ones. A simple visit to India can easily dispel all these outdated colonialist theories regarding the nature of the caste system.


But don't get me wrong, I agree that Europeans have been crudely racists (some still are now). But I think racism is something natural when you have a homogeneous culture/race looking at other race, especially if the latter are shorter and dark skinned (this never fails).
Ethnocentrism is natural and was/is present in all human societies since the dawn of time (my own tribe is good; the tribe on the other side of the hill is weird); scientific racism, on the other hand, is not. The European concept of racism was strongly shaped by religion and ideology, not just superficial physical appearance.
 

asianobserve

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The problem is that the caste system isn't racism.

Perhaps I can understand your hate against the Europeans. But it really bothers me that a guy like you which is so sensitive about European injustice is blind or in denial to a prevalent one (maybe waning) in India.
 

asianobserve

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The European concept of racism was strongly shaped by religion and ideology, not just superficial physical appearance.

You have carefully omitted to mention that the Europeans themselves have defeated this despicable Nazi racial theory/experiment (and previous proto-Nazi racial theories/experiments).
 

average american

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I am not sure exactly what religion has to do with it but Christians are at nearlyt ten times as wealthy and productive as Hindus, and Judism is at least five times as wealthy as Christians. The median net worth of people believing in the Jewish religion is calculated at 150,890 USD, while the median net worth of conservative Protestants (including Baptists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh-day Adventists, Christian Scientists) was found at 26,200 USD.[1] (Hindus and Muslims are are about 3000) ? Where the west advanced compared to the east was the result of 5 major changes one building on the other,,,, Protestant Reformation, Development Scientific Enquiry and Thought and the resulting Industrial Revolution, Secular Goverments and Democracy.
 
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pmaitra

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pmaitra

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I am not sure exactly what religion has to do with it but Christians are at nearlyt ten times as wealthy and productive as Hindus, and Judism is at least five times as wealthy as Christians. The median net worth of people believing in the Jewish religion is calculated at 150,890 USD, while the median net worth of conservative Protestants (including Baptists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh-day Adventists, Christian Scientists) was found at 26,200 USD.[1] (Hindus and Muslims are are about 3000) ? Where the west advanced compared to the east was the result of 5 major changes one building on the other,,,, Protestant Reformation, Development Scientific Enquiry and Thought and the resulting Industrial Revolution, Secular Goverments and Democracy.
Sorry, Jews are more productive than Christians. Ever head of Ben Shalom Bernanke? Goldman Sachs? JP Morgan? Rothschild? I could go on, because the list is pretty long, bud!
 

Tronic

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I am not sure exactly what religion has to do with it but Christians are at nearlyt ten times as wealthy and productive as Hindus, and Judism is at least five times as wealthy as Christians. The median net worth of people believing in the Jewish religion is calculated at 150,890 USD, while the median net worth of conservative Protestants (including Baptists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh-day Adventists, Christian Scientists) was found at 26,200 USD.[1] (Hindus and Muslims are are about 3000) ? Where the west advanced compared to the east was the result of 5 major changes one building on the other,,,, Protestant Reformation, Development Scientific Enquiry and Thought and the resulting Industrial Revolution, Secular Goverments and Democracy.
Empires rise and fall. So the West rose in the last 600 years, where the East was more technologically and socially advanced 1000 years before that! Rise and fall is part of human civilization, and you're seeing the East rise up once more.

Level the playing field, and than see whose more wealthy and productive:

According to a 2007 census report, there were as many as 2,765,815 persons of Indian origin living in the United states, constituting 0.9% of the total U.S. population. The median household income for US residents born in India is $91,195 against a $50,740 average for the total population, a recent US survey has revealed. According to the same report, the overall median household income for foreign- born and native US residents is $46,881 and $51,249 respectively.

According to the 2000 census, about 64% of Indian Americans have attained a Bachelor's degree or more.(compared to 28% nationally, and 44% average for all Asian American groups). Almost 40% of all Indians have a master's, doctorate or other professional degree, which is five times the national average. (Source: The Indian American Centre for Political Awareness.)

These high levels of education have enabled Indian Americans to become a productive segment of the American population, with 72.3% participating in the U.S. work force, of which 57.7% are employed in managerial and professional specialties. A University of California, Berkeley, study reported that one-third of the engineers in Silicon Valley are of Indian descent, while 7% of valley hi-tech firms are led by Indian CEOs.

Indian Americans own 50% of all economy lodges and 35% of all hotels in the United States, which have a combined marke t value of almost $40 billion. (Source: Little India Magazine). In 2002, there were over 223,000 Asian Indian-owned firms in the U.S., employing more than 610,000 workers, and generating more than $88 billion in revenue.
Indian Americans: The fastest growing and the highest income group
Asian Americans are the highest-income, best-educated and fastest-growing racial group in the US with Indian Americans leading them all in their levels of income and education, according to a new survey.

Indians also have the highest median household income of $88,000 among the largest Asian-American groups. Asians as a whole have a median household income of $66,000 compared with the US median of $49,800.
Indian Americans lead all in income, education: Survey - Economic Times
That should answer your assertions as to whose more productive. :)
 
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average american

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Its not a surprise that educated or wealthy Indians comming to the USA have a higher per capita then the the average american, that is just as ridiculous as saying that the average american working in India makes 60,000 a year while the average India makes 6000 a year. What you need to be concerned about is why they have to come here to do so well in the first place.

10 Million Indians Wish to Move to U.S.: Poll

26 percent of Indian students in the USA do not want to return to India.
 
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civfanatic

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^^Interesting how the Evangelists are almost as poor as the Muslims. But maybe its not so surprising, given some thought.
 

Tronic

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Its not a surprise that educated or wealthy Indians comming to the USA have a higher per capita then the the average american, that is just as ridiculous as saying that the average american working in India makes 60,000 a year while the average India makes 6000 a year. What you need to be concerned about is why they have to come here to do so well in the first place.

10 Million Indians Wish to Move to U.S.: Poll

26 percent of Indian students in the USA do not want to return to India.
How many American students do you see in India? It is the wealthy Americans who come to India to exploit business opportunities, meanwhile, it is the middle class Indians who migrate to the US, work hard, educate themselves, and do much better than the average American who is in a much better position to improve his/her social position. So, your comparison is moot.

Secondly, let me just remind you that India is a 60 year old country limping out of colonization while America is a 300 year old country. There was a reason all of Europe was racing towards India, and only accidentally bumped into the Americas. The East is rising again.
 
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average american

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The best and the brighest have allways come to america from other countres you have almost a billion and half Indians, and the most intelligent Indians, those seeking freedom and opportunity flee to the USA motivated to work harder and longer then most americans. Its allways been that way and its a fact that I am proud of......

The USA is a universal nation, a country that draws people from all parts of the world - people of all colors, creeds and religions and finds a way to harness their talent and build a kind of universal dream. By gathering the best and the brightist Americans accomplishments astound the world in space, science, military, and medicine. More people have come to the USA from other countries and been awarded more nobel prizes then they have been award to their home countries. Examples only one Indian has been awarded a nobel prizes for science in India but six have been awarded nobel prizes for science in the USA. No Chinese has ever been awarded a Nobel Prize for Science in China but eight Chinese have been awarded Nobel Prize for Science in the USA. the average IQ of an Indian in India is 81, the average I Q of an Indian emigrant to the USA is 115.
http://sq.4mg.com/NationIQ.htm

http://www.migrationexpert.com/visa...age_of_science_and_engineering_degree_holders
 
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