What and who is "The West" ?

balai_c

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Depends. Can you give me "concrete" civilizational values of the "west" apart from Movies/Music/Clothes/Food ?

America( U.S.A)-- Manifest destiny: Manifest destiny - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Manifest Destiny was the belief widely held by Americans in the 19th century that the United States was destined to expand across the continent. The concept, born out of "a sense of mission to redeem the Old World", was enabled by "the potentialities of a new earth for building a new heaven"[1] The phrase itself meant many different things to many different people. The unity of the definitions ended at "expansion, prearranged by Heaven".[2] Mid"‘19th Century Democrats would use it to explain the need for expansion past the Louisiana Territory.

Manifest destiny provided the dogma and tone for the largest acquisition of U.S. territory. It was used by Democrats in the 1840s to justify the war with Mexico and it was also used to acquire portions of Oregon from the British Empire. But Manifest Destiny always limped along because of its internal limitations and the issue of slavery, says Merk, and never became a national priority. By 1843 John Quincy Adams, a major supporter, had changed his mind and repudiated Manifest Destiny because it meant the expansion of slavery in Texas.[3]

The legacy is a complex one. The belief in an American mission to promote and defend democracy throughout the world, as expounded by Abraham Lincoln and later by Woodrow Wilson and George W. Bush, continues to have an influence on American political ideology.
Shining City in the hill: City upon a Hill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A City upon a Hill is a phrase from the parable of Salt and Light in Jesus' Sermon on the Mount. In Matthew 5:14, he tells his listeners, "You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden." It has become popular with American politicians.
In the twentieth century, the image was used a number of times in American politics. On 9 January 1961, President-Elect John F. Kennedy returned the phrase to prominence during an address delivered to the General Court of Massachusetts:

...I have been guided by the standard John Winthrop set before his shipmates on the flagship Arbella three hundred and thirty-one years ago, as they, too, faced the task of building a new government on a perilous frontier. "We must always consider", he said, "that we shall be as a city upon a hill—the eyes of all people are upon us". Today the eyes of all people are truly upon us—and our governments, in every branch, at every level, national, state and local, must be as a city upon a hill — constructed and inhabited by men aware of their great trust and their great responsibilities. For we are setting out upon a voyage in 1961 no less hazardous than that undertaken by the Arbella in 1630. We are committing ourselves to tasks of statecraft no less fantastic than that of governing the Massachusetts Bay Colony, beset as it was then by terror without and disorder within. History will not judge our endeavors—and a government cannot be selected—merely on the basis of color or creed or even party affiliation. Neither will competence and loyalty and stature, while essential to the utmost, suffice in times such as these. For of those to whom much is given, much is required...[2]

President Ronald Reagan used the image as well, in his 1984 acceptance of the Republican Party nomination[3] and in his January 11, 1989, farewell speech to the nation:

...I've spoken of the shining city all my political life, but I don't know if I ever quite communicated what I saw when I said it. But in my mind it was a tall proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, wind-swept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace, a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity, and if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it and see it still....[4]

During the struggle for the Republican nomination in 1999, Gary Bauer used the same image and explicitly presented himself as a Reagan-devotee;[5] he used the phrase three times during his stump speech, and according to The New York Times simply stole them from Reagan.[6] Likewise following Reagan was his son Michael Reagan, whose 1997 book is called The City on a Hill: Fulfilling Ronald Reagan's Vision for America.
See also
 

balai_c

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Whiteness studies: what is means to be white:

White people

The term "white race" or "white people" entered the major European languages in the later 17th century, originating with the racialization of slavery at the time, in the context of the Atlantic slave trade and enslavement of native peoples in the Spanish Empire. While first a social category, it has repeatedly been ascribed to strains of blood, ancestry, and physical traits, and was eventually made into a subject of scientific research, which culminated in scientific racism, before being widely repudiated by the scientific community. According to historian Irene Silverblatt, "Race thinking "¦ made social categories into racial truths."[12] Bruce David Baum, citing the work of Ruth Frankenberg, states, "the history of modern racist domination has been bound up with the history of how European peoples defined themselves (and sometimes some other peoples) as members of a superior 'white race.'"[13] Alastair Bonnett argues that 'white identity', as it is presently conceived, is an American project, reflecting American interpretations of race and history.[14]

According to Gregory Jay, a professor of English at the University of Wisconsin–Milwaukee,

Before the age of exploration, group differences were largely based on language, religion, and geography. ... the European had always reacted a bit hysterically to the differences of skin color and facial structure between themselves and the populations encountered in Africa, Asia, and the Americas (see, for example, Shakespeare's dramatization of racial conflict in Othello and The Tempest). Beginning in the 1500s, Europeans began to develop what became known as "scientific racism," the attempt to construct a biological rather than cultural definition of race ... Whiteness, then, emerged as what we now call a "pan-ethnic" category, as a way of merging a variety of European ethnic populations into a single "race" ...
 

civfanatic

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^^The Europeans invented modern racism, but if I say that I will be branded as an "anti-White" racist :lol:
 

balai_c

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Whiteness can be regarded as synthetic essentialisation of the diverse ethniciticies of europe, quashing them into a single homogemous entity. It can be regarded as an exclusive club, a priveledge, bestown by one group to another.
 

Godless-Kafir

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The West is largely based on Christianity and blossomed from the Renaissance era of christian think but Jesus was born in Kentucky and the bible was written in California?? Unless i am looking at the wrong map, may be from now on we should call it middle east based culture. :laugh:

The greeks founded democracy but where did the greeks get it from, slipped out of the void i guess.

Free trade and currency was INVENTED in the west...Sure.

They mean the western life style of wallowing in wealth and aspiring to be the rich guy was invented by someone! lol What if you dont become happy after getting that and all you do is get drunk on Saturday and take anti-depressants the rest of the week, how is it working for you?
 
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LurkerBaba

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The West is largely based on Christianity and blossomed from the Renaissance era of christian think but Jesus was born in Kentucky and the bible was written in California?? Unless i am looking at the wrong map, may be from now on we should call it middle east based culture. :laugh:

The greeks founded democracy but where did the greeks get it from, slipped out of the void i guess.
The Greeks were considered an inferior race by the Western Europeans. It was after the whole Hitler thingy that race became a taboo and the term "West" was devised

Check this out Eric Gerlach's Blog for Thought: Ethics: Racism & Eurocentrism


The West is largely based on Christianity and blossomed from the Renaissance era of christian think but Jesus was born in Kentucky and the bible was written in California?? Unless i am looking at the wrong map, may be from now on we should call it middle east based culture.
Indology and the Europe's Aryan festish arose because deep down, they didn't like that the fact "West" follows an ideology which has roots in the "Barbaric" "Middle East".
 

Godless-Kafir

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The Greeks were considered an inferior race by the Western Europeans. It was after the whole Hitler thingy that race became a taboo and the term "West" was devised

Check this out Eric Gerlach's Blog for Thought: Ethics: Racism & Eurocentrism
Exactly, the word West is meant to replace the word White. However the greeks and Romans considered the norther Europeans as barbarians for much longer time.

The important point here is that they claim everyone is following the west when they are following a 2,000yr old middle eastern religion and bowing before a brown jew, which dictates their whole life. The irony is people dont question that.
 
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LurkerBaba

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The important point here is that they claim everyone is following the west when they are following a 2,000yr old middle eastern religion and bowing before a brown jew. The irony is people dont question that.
Yes this what rattled European thinkers, Christianity was primitive and lacked ideological depth. So they tried to hijack Indian philosophy, with the "Aryan" connection.

Terms like "Pantheism" are lifted straight out of Vedanta (forget the fake antiquity associated with them)
 

Godless-Kafir

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Yes this what rattled European thinkers, Christianity was primitive and lacked ideological depth. So they tried to hijack Indian philosophy, with the "Aryan" connection.

Terms like "Pantheism" are lifted straight out of Vedanta (forget the fake antiquity associated with them)
No, it was the sheer lack of depth that created all sorts of counter solutions like communism, socialism, fascism to revolt against it, they are all rebel child's of Christianity. Contradictions are complimentary like there will be no Gandhi without the british empire, the one creates the other. That is how the modern west emerged out of a conflict ridden conscious of Christianity.
 

LurkerBaba

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No, it was the sheer lack of depth that created all sorts of counter solutions like communism, socialism, fascism are all rebel child's of Christianity. Contradictions are complimentary like there will be no Gandhi without the british empire, the one creates the other. That is how the modern west emerged out of a conflict ridden conscious of Christianity.
"Communism rebel child of Christianity" :thumb: Very well articulated
 

Godless-Kafir

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"Communism rebel child of Christianity" :thumb: Very well articulated
Ya, Without christianity there will be no communism, it is the complete lack of depth and consistency in the bible that caused doubt and made them invent loop holes and hypocracy... like the pope leading people into battle when jesus speaks of forgiveness, you cant really spread your religion without power, so even though you are only spreading the message of peace you needed to practice war. So on and so forth gave rise to modern era.
 

asianobserve

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Thanks for the link, I have never heard of the caste system before.

Me too, but I came across this only very recently....

Most studies have found some association between caste status and Y-chromosomal genetic markers which seem to indicate that higher castes have greater West Eurasian ancestry than lower castes.[35][36] For example, Basu et al. (2003) observe that: "In a recent study conducted on ranked caste populations sampled from one southern Indian State (Andhra Pradesh), Bamshad et al. (2001) have found that the genomic affinity to Europeans is proportionate to caste rank—the upper castes being most similar to Europeans, particularly East Europeans, whereas the lower castes are more similar to Asians. ... Populations of Central Asia and Pakistan show the lowest (0.017) coefficient of genetic differentiation with the north Indian populations, higher (0.042) with the south Indian populations, and the highest (0.047) with the northeast Indian populations. The Central Asian populations are genetically closer to the upper-caste populations than to the middle- or lower-caste populations, which is in agreement with Bamshad et al.'s (2001) findings."


Dalit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


So even among Indian population these "Caucasians" still discriminate against there "Asian" countrymen. Now I agree that Europeans are really racists...
 
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asianobserve

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Re: Caste System and "Brahmanism"

My post should not have been transferred. I agree that was an OT but still it is more appropriate in the discussion with civfanatic in "What and Who is the West?"
 

civfanatic

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Me too, but I came across this only very recently....

Most studies have found some association between caste status and Y-chromosomal genetic markers which seem to indicate that higher castes have greater West Eurasian ancestry than lower castes.[35][36] For example, Basu et al. (2003) observe that: "In a recent study conducted on ranked caste populations sampled from one southern Indian State (Andhra Pradesh), Bamshad et al. (2001) have found that the genomic affinity to Europeans is proportionate to caste rank—the upper castes being most similar to Europeans, particularly East Europeans, whereas the lower castes are more similar to Asians. ... Populations of Central Asia and Pakistan show the lowest (0.017) coefficient of genetic differentiation with the north Indian populations, higher (0.042) with the south Indian populations, and the highest (0.047) with the northeast Indian populations. The Central Asian populations are genetically closer to the upper-caste populations than to the middle- or lower-caste populations, which is in agreement with Bamshad et al.'s (2001) findings."


Dalit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


So even among Indian population these "Caucasians" still discriminate against there "Asian" countrymen. Now I agree that Europeans are really racists...
Congratulations, you just turned this thread into Indo-Aryan Invasion Thread #872643291

Let's assume for a moment that upper-caste Indians really are the descendants of tall, fair-skinned, blue-eyed conquerors who subsequently lorded over the hapless, short, primitive, dark-skinned, Dravidian natives. This did not prevent India from producing the world's first truly humanistic ideology, Buddhism (which, btw, explicitly rejected the caste system), or one of the world's first examples of codified human and animal rights (Ashoka's Pillars). Nor is there is a single instance in history where Indians committed something that can be compared to the numerous racially-motivated genocides performed by Europeans across the world. So for a society that is supposedly built on racial discrimination, I say that India historically has done a pretty good job, especially when compared to the supposed relatives of the Indian upper-castes.
 

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