My point is MTV Roadies, Bollywood, Big Boss these area all the civilizational aspect of the 'west' and the 'east' has already accepted it leaving behind its old cultural civilizational way of life..
What and who is "The West" ?
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LurkerBaba
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No, they are not "civilizational aspects" of the West. Neither are "Saas Bahu" serials civilizational aspects of India
Give me a concrete example of "civilizational values" of the east that still matters largely.
LurkerBaba
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Depends. Can you give me "concrete" civilizational values of the "west" apart from Movies/Music/Clothes/Food ?
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In China, Confucian values relating to the relationship between individual, family, and state are still important and form the basis of Chinese society, as well as a very important part of Chinese national identity.
In Japan, the traditional emphasis on family honor and self-sacrifice for the sake of the "greater good" is still there, except without the militarism of the past.
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^^
And a example of civilizational value of America (not the "West" but America) could be separation of Church and State due to Protestant influence. Far more important than Hollywood/Rap/Rock/Pizza Corner
And a example of civilizational value of America (not the "West" but America) could be separation of Church and State due to Protestant influence. Far more important than Hollywood/Rap/Rock/Pizza Corner
Any free time (after work hours) people get what they do is generally watch movie, listen to music, go out and eat something, do some shopping...this is quite a large part of people's life (after work hours) and people have conveniently adopted western way of life to spend their free time..
Apart of that if you see concept of joint families don't exist in India anymore...Even if families live in the same city and close by they will still live separately..May be this is a coincidence..may be the life style of Indian families would have evolved into living in a 'nuclear style' but still to me it seems like it is because of western influence...
concept of live-in relationship is so common in India now...this a typical western style of life.. I am not against any of these..I am just giving you examples...
>>>Depends.
Assume any convenient situation you want and now give me a concrete example of "civilizational values" of the east that still matters..
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Separation of church and state is a value of America, but is not unique to it. Separation of church and state is also a historic value of Indian/Dharmic civilization; there was never an Indian equivalent of the Pope or Caliph. The religious class (brahmins) were never politically organized.
Remove the Communist rule there, give people free will and then will talk about Chinese national indentity and the Chinese society..
Regarding Japan, no, not in today's generation..."greater good" concept is only being followed by old people not today's generation people...I have been to Japan and I have seen it myself..
I don't know why you even gave this example and how this is relevant to our debate..
LurkerBaba
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Yeah, I never said its unique to America. In fact India would be struggling like many Islamic countries if this concept was unknown to us
Actually, In the previous post I gave an example of real "western" civilization value (different from movies/music/shopping/eating food)
I asked you "eastern" civilization value that still matter largely in the east! What I am trying to say is that 'East' is following 'West' and will become like 'West' very soon..
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"Free will" has never been a part of China's national ethos, and "Communist rule" is just rehashed Legalism.
China's civilization is alive and well.
In Japan you cannot even talk on a train because it is considered disruptive, and rude. What is "Western" about that? A small example, but an illustrative one. Overall, the society is much more collectivist than the 'West', there can be little doubt about that.
I never said other civilizations will vanish if they don't follow western style...what i meant was as soon you to remove the communist rule there and don't impose any life style on people, people will follow western way of life...
Yes, I have seen this...but they follow this only if there are some old people in the train..with only youngsters or teenagers in the train, you will see "everything" in that train...
pmaitra
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Apropos the emboldened portion, I think it is not merely a spatial, but also temporal phenomenon. India did believe in that system. Older people were expected to distance themselves from their children's married lives. Young children were sent off to seminaries. I am talking about the Ashrama System.
Atleast in the last 500 years unless people had to move to another city for work joint families was the norm. And are you serious about live-in relationship concept in Indian history ?
pmaitra
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Yes, just like Gandharva Vivaha.
This is from wiki..
This is not what live-in relationship is. Live-in relationships are mostly for time pass..so again was this part of India's past too? I mean like a very common thing.
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Tolaha
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The one that you see in what you said is in the last 500 years, is mostly from the influence from regions to the west of India. As for live-in relationships, there are probably more in Indian history/legends/mythologies than in the history of the rest of the world combined!
pmaitra
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Eight forms of Hindu Marriage and its custom
Eight forms of Hindu Marriage and its custom
There are eight kinds of marriages, according to the Hindu law books. Brahma Vivah, Daiva Vivah, Arsha Vivah, and Gandharva Vivah are the main forms of marriages in Hinduism.
There are eight kinds of marriages, according to the Hindu law books. Brahma Vivah, Daiva Vivah, Arsha Vivah are some of the main forms of marriages in Hinduism. The different forms of marriage are described as below:
Brahma Vivah: The daughter is dressed in a single robe and married to a man who is learned in the Vedas; her father readily invites and receives the bridegroom and his family respectfully. This nuptial is called Brahma. After the bride and the bridegroom took thorough education in Brahmacharya Ashrama and when both agree to spend their life together, the father of the bride gives his daughter to the bridegroom in the form of a gift. Usually carry a huge amount of ornaments. This ceremony was earlier not much known among the Brahmins, but now it is performed by all castes of Hindus.
Daiva Vivah: In this type of marriage, the father gives away his daughter along with heavy ornaments to a priest; this priest performs the sacrifice Yajna. Such marriages were more frequent in earlier times, when Yajna was a vital part of the daily activities of Hindus.
Arsha Vivah: In this type of marriage, the bridegroom gives a cow and a bull to the father of the bride and the father instead gives his daughter in marriage. This exchange of the cow and the bull was considered as a religious ritual and as a token of gratitude to the father in law. The groom is also obliged to him to fulfill the obligations of Grihasthashram.
Prajapatya Vivah: This kind of joint performance of sacred duties by a man and a woman is called the Prajapatya marriage. According to the founder of Arya Samaj, Swami Dayanand Saraswati, the father offers his daughter to the bridegroom, by addressing the couple some of the mantras of value.
Asura Vivah: This is a type of marriage where the bridegroom pays the value to the father or kinsmen of the bride. The bridegroom decides the price according to the position of the bride's family in society. This form of marriage is still popular amongst the low caste Hindus and some other tribes of India.
Gandharva Vivah: Mutual love and consent between bride and the bridegroom brings about this kind of marriage. This kind of marriage is a voluntary union of a maiden with her beloved. Parents and kinsmen do not play any role in such marriages. Sexual intercourse before marriage also may occur between the couple. It is not regarded as a prohibition for their following marriage. Kama Sutra says this kind of marriage to be an ideal one. Hindu mythology literature has such type of marriages in abundance. Some of the well known mythological pairs are Bhima with Hidimba; Dushyant and Shakuntala; Kamdeva and Rati, Daksheya and Prajapati, Kach and Devyani, Arjuna with a servant maid and many more described in Sukh Sagar.
Swaymvara is another form of marriage and this existed in ancient times. This form of marriage depicts the choice of a hero as her bridegroom. The royalty of ancient times decided to choose a brave and righteous person as the bridegroom. So invitations were sent to the princes and the chieftains living close by and to distant kingdoms. The bride was allowed to select one from the gathered ones whom wished to put a garland round his neck and the marriage was complete.
The marriage of Nala and Damayanti took place in this process. In the nuptial knot ceremony of Prithviraj and Sanyukta, the bride had put a garland round the neck of a statue of Prithviraj. In some particular cases, a test was given to be completed by the competitors and the winner won the bride. This system was followed in Ramayana too; when Rama pulled the cord of Siva's bow and married Sita. In Mahabharata, Arjuna shot through the eye of the rotating fish on the top of a shaft to marry Draupadi.
Swaymvara is usually not included in the 8 forms of traditional marriages. But it shares a close resemblance with Gandharva marriage. In this type of marriage, it is also allowed that, the father permits his daughter to choose her husband. Later, love and courtship comes along the way. In such cases, an ardent couple might have entered into a union without entering the religion-legal formalities. This is very common during wars. Later on, the union was legalized through a proper ceremony, thus it was an approved form.
Rakshasa Vivah: Capturing the bridegroom made this kind of marriage. Ancient tribes looked upon women as prizes of war, part of the loot in a fair fight. This form was quite frequent in many other early civilizations. It pleads the warrior of instinct of the Kshatriya, and was mostly practiced by them. The source of this form of marriage probably came from the non- Aryans. Hindu scriptures described this type of marriage as forceful seizure of a maiden from her home. The bride used to cry, weep and scream while the act. Women, thus, have been the reason of many fights and battles in ancient times.
Paishacha Vivah: This was the most horrible form of all types of marriages. In this the bride was not only kidnapped but she was first molested or stolen amidst her tribe. Usually when her relatives were asleep, or in a state of intoxication during a tribal festival, this act was carried out in stealth. This form is unanimously damned. This form of marriage was most prevalent among the Hindu Sutras. By recognition of this form of marriage was only that the children were regarded as legitimate.
According to Kautilya shastra, of these eight types of marriage, only the first four (Brahma, Daiva, Arsha and Prajapatya) carry the ancestral ethnicity of old and are suitable on their being accepted by the father. The rest of the marriages were based on receiving money or torturing the bride.
Source: Eight forms of Hindu Marriage and its custom
Eight forms of Hindu Marriage and its custom
There are eight kinds of marriages, according to the Hindu law books. Brahma Vivah, Daiva Vivah, Arsha Vivah, and Gandharva Vivah are the main forms of marriages in Hinduism.
There are eight kinds of marriages, according to the Hindu law books. Brahma Vivah, Daiva Vivah, Arsha Vivah are some of the main forms of marriages in Hinduism. The different forms of marriage are described as below:
Brahma Vivah: The daughter is dressed in a single robe and married to a man who is learned in the Vedas; her father readily invites and receives the bridegroom and his family respectfully. This nuptial is called Brahma. After the bride and the bridegroom took thorough education in Brahmacharya Ashrama and when both agree to spend their life together, the father of the bride gives his daughter to the bridegroom in the form of a gift. Usually carry a huge amount of ornaments. This ceremony was earlier not much known among the Brahmins, but now it is performed by all castes of Hindus.
Daiva Vivah: In this type of marriage, the father gives away his daughter along with heavy ornaments to a priest; this priest performs the sacrifice Yajna. Such marriages were more frequent in earlier times, when Yajna was a vital part of the daily activities of Hindus.
Arsha Vivah: In this type of marriage, the bridegroom gives a cow and a bull to the father of the bride and the father instead gives his daughter in marriage. This exchange of the cow and the bull was considered as a religious ritual and as a token of gratitude to the father in law. The groom is also obliged to him to fulfill the obligations of Grihasthashram.
Prajapatya Vivah: This kind of joint performance of sacred duties by a man and a woman is called the Prajapatya marriage. According to the founder of Arya Samaj, Swami Dayanand Saraswati, the father offers his daughter to the bridegroom, by addressing the couple some of the mantras of value.
Asura Vivah: This is a type of marriage where the bridegroom pays the value to the father or kinsmen of the bride. The bridegroom decides the price according to the position of the bride's family in society. This form of marriage is still popular amongst the low caste Hindus and some other tribes of India.
Gandharva Vivah: Mutual love and consent between bride and the bridegroom brings about this kind of marriage. This kind of marriage is a voluntary union of a maiden with her beloved. Parents and kinsmen do not play any role in such marriages. Sexual intercourse before marriage also may occur between the couple. It is not regarded as a prohibition for their following marriage. Kama Sutra says this kind of marriage to be an ideal one. Hindu mythology literature has such type of marriages in abundance. Some of the well known mythological pairs are Bhima with Hidimba; Dushyant and Shakuntala; Kamdeva and Rati, Daksheya and Prajapati, Kach and Devyani, Arjuna with a servant maid and many more described in Sukh Sagar.
Swaymvara is another form of marriage and this existed in ancient times. This form of marriage depicts the choice of a hero as her bridegroom. The royalty of ancient times decided to choose a brave and righteous person as the bridegroom. So invitations were sent to the princes and the chieftains living close by and to distant kingdoms. The bride was allowed to select one from the gathered ones whom wished to put a garland round his neck and the marriage was complete.
The marriage of Nala and Damayanti took place in this process. In the nuptial knot ceremony of Prithviraj and Sanyukta, the bride had put a garland round the neck of a statue of Prithviraj. In some particular cases, a test was given to be completed by the competitors and the winner won the bride. This system was followed in Ramayana too; when Rama pulled the cord of Siva's bow and married Sita. In Mahabharata, Arjuna shot through the eye of the rotating fish on the top of a shaft to marry Draupadi.
Swaymvara is usually not included in the 8 forms of traditional marriages. But it shares a close resemblance with Gandharva marriage. In this type of marriage, it is also allowed that, the father permits his daughter to choose her husband. Later, love and courtship comes along the way. In such cases, an ardent couple might have entered into a union without entering the religion-legal formalities. This is very common during wars. Later on, the union was legalized through a proper ceremony, thus it was an approved form.
Rakshasa Vivah: Capturing the bridegroom made this kind of marriage. Ancient tribes looked upon women as prizes of war, part of the loot in a fair fight. This form was quite frequent in many other early civilizations. It pleads the warrior of instinct of the Kshatriya, and was mostly practiced by them. The source of this form of marriage probably came from the non- Aryans. Hindu scriptures described this type of marriage as forceful seizure of a maiden from her home. The bride used to cry, weep and scream while the act. Women, thus, have been the reason of many fights and battles in ancient times.
Paishacha Vivah: This was the most horrible form of all types of marriages. In this the bride was not only kidnapped but she was first molested or stolen amidst her tribe. Usually when her relatives were asleep, or in a state of intoxication during a tribal festival, this act was carried out in stealth. This form is unanimously damned. This form of marriage was most prevalent among the Hindu Sutras. By recognition of this form of marriage was only that the children were regarded as legitimate.
According to Kautilya shastra, of these eight types of marriage, only the first four (Brahma, Daiva, Arsha and Prajapatya) carry the ancestral ethnicity of old and are suitable on their being accepted by the father. The rest of the marriages were based on receiving money or torturing the bride.
Source: Eight forms of Hindu Marriage and its custom
Not really. Even 'West' was pretty orthodox 300/400 years back...concept of joint families did exist even in the west, even live-in relationships were not common even in the west those days... Today what 'west' is became like that in the last 100 years...The one that you see in what you said is in the last 500 years, is mostly from the influence from regions to the west of India. As for live-in relationships, there are probably more in Indian history/legends/mythologies than in the history of the rest of the world combined!
>>>there are probably more in Indian history/legends/mythologies than in the history of the rest of the world combined!
Exactly those were only in the mythologies and not common in real life...and they were perceived like how bollywood characters are perceived today..Bollywood heros can fight with 10 villains at the same time, people see and enjoy but don't believe that they can do it...
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