Wary of China's Indian Ocean activities, US, India discuss anti-submarine warfare

[WolfPack86]

NEW DELHI/HONG KONG: India and the United States are in talks to help each other track submarines in the Indian Ocean, military officials say, a move that could further tighten defense ties between New Delhi and Washington as China steps up its undersea activities.
Both the United States and India are growing concerned at the reach and ambition of the Chinese navy, which is taking an increasingly assertive stance in the South China Sea and is challenging India's domination in the Indian Ocean.
New Delhi, shedding its decades-old reluctance to be drawn into America's embrace, agreed last month to open up its military bases to the United States in exchange for access to weapons technology to help it narrow the gap with China.
The two sides also said their navies will hold talks on anti submarine warfare (ASW), an area of sensitive military technology and closely held tactics that only allies share.
"These types of basic engagements will be the building blocks for an enduring Navy-to-Navy relationship that we hope will grow over time into a shared ASW capability," one US official familiar with India-US military cooperation said, speaking on condition of anonymity.
Indian naval officials say Chinese submarines have been sighted on an average four times every three months. Some are seen near India's Andamans and Nicobar islands that lie near the Malacca Straits, the entry to the South China Sea through which more than 80 percent of China's fuel supplies pass.
India and the United States, which already conduct joint naval exercises, both fly the new version of the P-8 aircraft, making information sharing easier on highly sensitive submarine tracking activities.
The P-8 is Washington's most advanced submarine hunting weapon, equipped with sensors that can track and identify submarines by sonar and other means.
An Indian naval spokesman declined to comment on the proposed anti-submarine warfare cooperation with the United States.
But an Indian naval source, briefed on the discussions, said the focus of the next set of joint exercises to take place in the northern Philippine Sea in June will be on anti-submarine warfare.
Japan, a close US ally whose submarines are believed to track Chinese submarines in the western Pacific, will also be a participant in the exercises.
INTENSE SURVEILLANCE
Two linked factors are driving the co-operation, say regional military attaches and security experts.
The prospect of active patrols by nuclear-armed Chinese submarines has sparked intense surveillance activity around the China's southern submarine base on Hainan Island, and nearby waters.
India, meanwhile, is preparing to launch its first locally-built submarine armed with nuclear tipped missiles.
So just as US attack submarines are seeking to track the Chinese nuclear armed submarines in the Pacific, the Chinese are expected to send their own attack submarines to the Indian Ocean in greater numbers to scrutinize the Indian patrols.
Collin Koh, a submarine expert at Singapore's S. Rajaratnam School of International Studies, said increased US submarine and surveillance activity was being seen across the region.
"We will see the Indian Ocean grow in importance, too, particularly around traditional chokeholds, such as the approaches to the Malacca Straits and the Nicobar islands, so an improved US relationship with the major submarine player in the area, India, is very significant," Koh said.
BOLSTERING INDIAN CAPABILITIES
Initially, the United States as the world leader in anti-submarine warfare is likely to be bolstering Indian capabilities in the field.
But in time, experts say each country could be covering stretches of the Indian Ocean through which two-thirds of the world's trade moves.
David Brewster, an expert on the strategic rivalry in Indian Ocean at the Australian National University, said anti submarine warfare collaboration may eventually include Australia, another US ally which just ordered 12 new submarines.
"We are likely to ultimately see a division of responsibilities in the Indian Ocean between those three countries, and with the potential to also share facilities."
China for its part is seeking to secure its energy and trade transportation links by building ports and other infrastructure for countries such as Sri Lanka that lie along the vital shipping route.
Asked about collaboration between India and the United States on submarine warfare, Hua Chunying, a spokeswoman for China's Foreign Ministry, said China had noted countries in the region engaging in military cooperation.
"We hope that the relevant cooperation is normal, and that it can be meaningful to the peace and stability of the region," she said.
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2016/05/wary-of-chinas-indian-ocean-activities.html

 

[WolfPack86]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ti-submarine-warfare/articleshow/52070802.cms

 

[garg_bharat]

Unfortunately China has taken a threatening stance against India rather than offering a hand.

India needs to take adequate actions to safeguard its trade and economic activities which could come under attack from Chinese allies or directly from China.

It is hard to read Chinese intentions at this point as China becomes very aggressive.

 

[DingDong]

What are the chances that India will end up as the ultimate sore loser?

What are the chances that the US is trying to further increase it's footprint in the Indian Ocean while keeping India oblivious of the real intent, using the "Scary Chinaman" as distraction?

Instead of trying to stop China from venturing into the Indian Ocean we must venture deep into China's backyard. Within a decade our economy will be large enough to allow us sustain a formidable navy with expeditionary capabilities.

We must build alliances far away from our backyard, closer to the enemy territories.

 

[Navnit Kundu]

What are the chances that India will end up as the ultimate sore loser?

What are the chances that the US is trying to further increase it's footprint in the Indian Ocean while keeping India oblivious of the real intent, using the "Scary Chinaman" as distraction?

Instead of trying to stop China from venturing into the Indian Ocean we must venture deep into China's backyard. Within a decade our economy will be large enough to allow us sustain a formidable navy with expeditionary capabilities.

We must build alliances far away from our backyard, closer to the enemy territories.

Very high.

Hillary has said in one of her election campaign, yesterday : My election as president will anchor the US interests firmly in Indian ocean.

So, they aren't even trying to hide it. The US faces no real threat from China, it is the US which is a threat to China. They have no business building military alliances with countries on another continent and then claim that Asian giants are a threat to the US. Today it's China, tomorrow it will be India. I mean, it's not like China fired a single bullet at America or expressed desire to harm the US in any way, why then is the US antagonizing them? Because they don't want ANY Asian power to rise at all. In that sense, what makes India different from China from a US frame of reference? nothing.

They will do to us what they are doing to China, when we grow to have a certain critical mass, a decade from now. China was actually propped up by the US to counter USSR. I won't be surprised if their cultural revolution was funded and sponsored by the US as well, just like they sponsored Iran's cultural revolution to suit Cold War calculus. After all, it was Nizon's visit to China which led to a rapid rise of China in the years that followed. China even rejected a joint submarine building project that USSR had proposed, clearly because now they had the backing of the US. A few decades down the line, the US is now building anti-missile defense systems to defeat Chinese area denial weapons in their own backyard and accusing China of being an aggressor. US military presence anywhere in Asia, be it Afghanistan or ASEAN is not in Asia's collective interest, as they can hurt our energy security and trade simply by firing missiles and sinking our ships as they please. I hope we only play this card to the extent of getting Chinese co-operation but no need to go overboard and actually let the US anchor itself in Asia. They have already scored an upper hand in Myanmar by planting Aung San Suu Kyi there. I'm sure the US is pumping weapons and atrocity literature in Myanmar. 5 years down the line, there will either be a civil war or conventional war in this region and Myanmar will become a threat to India and China both, mark my words.

I wish we hadn't leaned so far towards the US but I curse China's irrational aggression for forcing us to do it. There could have been a productive Asian Union had China decided to use their clout to play a constructive role in Asia by integrating all economies and getting Pakistan to play along. Instead, China has plunged the entire region into a war frenzy with every smaller neighbor looking to build alliances with the US. The US is the real winner here.

 

[garg_bharat]

What are the chances that India will end up as the ultimate sore loser?

Indians are naturally suspicious of outsiders. However history proves that a closed-minded India is a loser India. We need to lose the 'koop mandook' attitude.

USSR helped India a lot in defending itself which most Indians (both politicians and military) have conveniently forgotten.

Similarly USA has a big contribution to development of modern industries like IT in India.

There is no benefit to distrust everything. China has been taking consistent anti-India stance. Giving weapon designs, testing a Pakistani nuke, and building atomic plants in Pakistan all are virtually giving the entire gamut of nuke tech to Pakistan on a platter. Who did this. Communist China. It is Chinese missiles which are pointed at India - either from Pakistan or from China proper.

We want peace with China, but Chinese intentions do not seem peaceful.

India must continue to take actions appropriate to the challenge to ensure its security.

 

[garg_bharat]

Remember USA is only a hegemon, not an enemy.

I am not sure if I should call China anything but enemy, in light of the persistent anti-India actions.

What benefit India gets from inbound trade from China. Only unemployment! Chinese goods are taking away industrial jobs from India. Even Bajaj is importing electrical goods from China as it cannot compete in fans and toasters. "Fans and toasters" - are these high-tech goods? Chinese have been dumping all kind of low value goods into India to kill local industry; and to create labour unrest.

 

[DingDong]

Very high.

Hillary has said in one of her election campaign, yesterday : My election as president will anchor the US interests firmly in Indian ocean.

So, they aren't even trying to hide it. The US faces no real threat from China, it is the US which is a threat to China. They have no business building military alliances with countries on another continent and then claim that Asian giants are a threat to the US. Today it's China, tomorrow it will be India. I mean, it's not like China fired a single bullet at America or expressed desire to harm the US in any way, why then is the US antagonizing them? Because they don't want ANY Asian power to rise at all. In that sense, what makes India different from China from a US frame of reference? nothing.

They will do to us what they are doing to China, when we grow to have a certain critical mass, a decade from now. China was actually propped up by the US to counter USSR. I won't be surprised if their cultural revolution was funded and sponsored by the US as well, just like they sponsored Iran's cultural revolution to suit Cold War calculus. After all, it was Nizon's visit to China which led to a rapid rise of China in the years that followed. China even rejected a joint submarine building project that USSR had proposed, clearly because now they had the backing of the US. A few decades down the line, the US is now building anti-missile defense systems to defeat Chinese area denial weapons in their own backyard and accusing China of being an aggressor. US military presence anywhere in Asia, be it Afghanistan or ASEAN is not in Asia's collective interest, as they can hurt our energy security and trade simply by firing missiles and sinking our ships as they please. I hope we only play this card to the extent of getting Chinese co-operation but no need to go overboard and actually let the US anchor itself in Asia. They have already scored an upper hand in Myanmar by planting Aung San Suu Kyi there. I'm sure the US is pumping weapons and atrocity literature in Myanmar. 5 years down the line, there will either be a civil war or conventional war in this region and Myanmar will become a threat to India and China both, mark my words.

I wish we hadn't leaned so far towards the US but I curse China's irrational aggression for forcing us to do it. There could have been a productive Asian Union had China decided to use their clout to play a constructive role in Asia by integrating all economies and getting Pakistan to play along. Instead, China has plunged the entire region into a war frenzy with every smaller neighbor looking to build alliances with the US. The US is the real winner here.

There is nothing "irrational" in China's actions. China is a rising power, just like India. China is trying to find it's place in the Pecking Order, just like India.

While criticizing China, we must also remember that our border with China has remained completely peaceful since 1990s.

You have raised the right question: What makes India any different from China from US' perspective. Today it is China, tomorrow it will be India. This is exactly what bothers me. What tells us that the US will not try to take us out before China just because it is doable?

@garg_bharat said that we must not become "close minded". Being open minded doesn't translate into inviting a potential adversary into our backyard. Instead we must try to sanitize our neighbourhood on our own and then expand into adversary's territory. This is the only guaranteed way of keeping our neighbourhood secure.

We must cooperate with the US, but certainly not in the Indian Ocean.

Indian telecom industry has benefited immensely from the "inbound trade". There was no "local industry" to kill in the first place. But we owe China nothing, it is just good business. Likewise, we owe the US nothing.

 

[Navnit Kundu]

There is nothing "irrational" in China's actions.

Not in their strategic actions, but their cosmetic actions are designed such that it becomes difficult for any elected leader to sell the idea of a 'peaceful co-existence with China' to his people, in case there is any agreement. This behavior, in fact, stifles the potential for any peace agreements. For example, then their premier was visiting India, their military were intruding on our side of the perceived border, it caused great heartburn but achieved nothing and cast a shadow over what could have been a very good diplomatic visit, visually speaking. China could have avoid that irrational behavior of trying to bully us to show us who is boss. It's these tendencies which I am talking about.

Even now their coast guards are harassing native fishermen from Vietnam and Philippines. China has an appetite for cheap theatricality which ends up annoying the masses in the respective countries.

What tells us that the US will not try to take us out before China just because it is doable?

Seems like that to me too.

 

[garg_bharat]

USA is like universal adversary. Anybody can assume it to be an adversary as it is present in all continents and all oceans.

I see USA as a hegemon, a bully. As a weak guy needs help from a strong guy to fight another strong guy, we need help of USA.

There is no chance USA will take us out, as it makes no sense. Taking out a large country like India is next to impossible. It is a game of alliances to balance power centers. Nothing else. Again objective is not to let power concentrate in the hands of one party that can draw sudden and excessive benefit from such power.

There are risks in every strategy. This is why India must take all steps to develop local industry, as a counterbalance to external influences.

 

[Superdefender]

US will behave the same towards India of 20 years later what it is doing with China now. It is the truth. As a late starter, it can be our advantage. India should plan accordingly from now how to prevent being bullied by a weaker USA 15/20 years later.

 

[Navnit Kundu]

US will behave the same towards India of 20 years later what it is doing with China now. It is the truth. As a late starter, it can be our advantage. India should plan accordingly from now how to prevent being bullied by a weaker USA 15/20 years later.

True that. But even the US has a late starter advantage of predicting India's moves because they have learnt a lot from their past experiences with China.

 

[Superdefender]

True that. But even the US has a late starter advantage of predicting India's moves because they have learnt a lot from their past experiences with China.

That's also right. But I have a slightly different view. I think India has more knowledge about USA than vice versa. We have always keep noticing and analysed our best to know the best of USA. However, majority US people still believe that India is basically a land of mystism. I would say US has started taking us seriously from 2005 onwards. Now that they are becoming more aware about us (whatever thay come to know about us), they are releasing that there are 2 parts - one is India and 2nd is Bharat. And % of India is increasing day by day. They know that if they fail in play their moves, %INDIA will takeove %BHARAT at a higher speed, and they will face another challenger to their hegemony much quickly after China. But they are loosing. So we have more advantage.

 

[Navnit Kundu]

However, majority US people still believe that India is basically a land of mystism.

Majority in any land do not make the strategic decisions. Don't underestimate them, they have very intelligent analysts, especially the missionaries who visit various foreign lands collect so much information about the natives that they know the natives better than the natives themselves. Just check the number of Indian languages that the Bible is translated in, you will know how diligent they are in their mission to understand and manipulate the thinking of natives. They have figured out how to manipulate Indians. In the south, they are going around telling people that Mary was the mother of Ganesha. They have even built a temple to attract Hindus and convert them later. No mysticism here, they have figured out how Indian brains work. This has been going on since centuries.

That's how cultural imperialism works. They know their opponents better than their opponents know them that is why they win.

 

[Superdefender]

@Navnit Kundu , nope sorry. They could manage that because of money and power, not because of extra knowledge. Wait for India to reach level of America. Then lets see who can convert whom as a faster pace?