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Bhadra

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@IndianHawk

Philosophically speaking Advaita attributes Agyana on the 'Brahman'. Since you and I exist due to the Agyana manifesting in the Brahman. The key question is whether Agyana is an inherent, but latent, attribute of the Brahman. Since Advaita claims Brahman is Nirguna (without attribute) then we have assume Brahman gives rise to Agyana, thus making it a creative force.

Buddhist philosopher Nagarjuna does seem to imply sunyata as emptiness, because you must understand that this is nothing but expanding on Buddha's espousing of the 'Anatavada'. 'Anata' should be read as without Atma, as in the upanishadic Atman. Since Atman is considered by upanishad to be the only all pervading reality, Anata/sunyata should be considered as emptiness.
A little different. The essence of Sunyata :

 

Bhadra

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प्रज्ञापारमिताहृदयसूत्रम्। [संक्षिप्तमातृका]


॥ नमः सर्वज्ञाय॥ ॥ ऊँ नमो भगवत्यै आर्य-प्रज्ञापारमितायै ॥ आर्यविलोकितेश्वरो बोधिसत्वो गम्भीरां प्रज्ञापारमिता- चर्या चरमाणो व्यवलोकयति स्म-पञ्च स्कन्धाः ।
avalokiteshvara, the noble bent on perfect enlightment, was moving in the deep course of transcendent wisdom which has gone beyond he looked down from on high and (knowing and seeing) beheld nothing more than these five aggregates.

तांश्च स्वभाव-शून्यान् पश्यति स्म॥
and he saw they were empty (devoid of self )

इह शारिपुत्र रूपं शून्यता, शून्यतैव रूपम्। रूपान्न पृथक् शून्यता, शून्यताया न पृथग् रूपम्।
oh shariputra, form is emptiness and the very emptiness is form , emptiness does not differ from the form and form does not differ from the emptiness.

यद्रूपं सा शून्यता, या शून्यता तद्रूपम् । एवमेव वेदना-संज्ञा-संस्कार-विज्ञानं ॥
what ever is form, that is emptiness, and what ever is emptiness, that is form. The same is the true of (the other four aggregates) feeling (sensations), perception, volitions and consciousness.

इहं शारिपुत्र सर्व धर्माः शून्यता, लक्षणा, अनुत्पन्ना, अनिरुद्धा, अमला विमला, अनूना अपरिपूर्णाः। here O shariputra, all phenomena bear this universal mark of emptiness. They are neither produced nor annihilated, neither defiled nor pure, neither deficient nor complete. (That is to say, there is no duality, no opposites)

तस्माच्छारिपुत्र शून्यतायां न रूपं, न वेदना, न संज्ञा, न संस्काराः, न विज्ञानं ।
Therefore, O shariputra in emptiness there is no form, feeling,perception, volition or consciousness.

न चक्षुःश्रोत्र-घ्राण-जिह्वा-काय-मनांसि ।
There is no ( contact as a consequence of three things coming together to form what in brief called ) eye , ear , nose, tongue, body or mind.

न रूप-शब्द-गन्ध-रस-स्प्रष्टव्य:-धर्माः।
There are no (external) forms, sounds, smells, tastes, tangibles, or objects of mind.

न चक्षुर्धातुर्यावन्न मनोविज्ञान-धातु न विधा ।
There is no ( sense-base consisting of ) sight- organ element, and so forth .. no mind-consciousness element.

न अविधा-क्षयो यावन्न जरा मरणं न जरा मरण-क्षयो ।
There is no ignorance, no cessation of ignorance, and so forth.. There is no decay and death, no cessation of decay and death.

न दुःख-समुदय-निरोध मार्गा । न ज्ञानं न प्राप्तिर् न अप्राप्तिः ॥
There is no suffering, no origination, no cessation, no path. There is no knowing, no attaining and no non attaining.

तस्माच्छारिपुत्र अत्रात्तित्वाद बोधिसत्वस्य प्रज्ञापारमितामाश्रित्य विहरति अचित्तावरणः।
Therefore, O sariputra, it is because of his non attainmentness that a being bent on perfect enlightment, Through having relied on the perfection of wisdom, dwells without thought coverings.

चित्तावरण-नास्तित्वाद अत्रस्तो विपर्यासातिक्रान्तो निष्ठ-निर्वाण प्राप्तः।
In the absent of thought covering one does not tremble, have overcome what can upset, and in the end one abides in nirvana( the unconditioned ultimate reality that is even beyond beyond.

त्रध्व-व्यवस्थितः सर्व-बुद्धाः प्रज्ञापारमितामाश्रित्य अनुत्तरां सम्यक्-संबोधिम् अभिसंबुद्धाः ॥
All thoes who appear as perfectly enlightened beings in the past, present and future fully awake to the utmost enlightment because they have relied on the perfection of wisdom

तस्मात्ज्ञातव्यं प्रज्ञापारमिता महा-मन्त्रोऽमहा-विधा-मन्त्रोऽनुत्तर-मन्त्रोऽसमसम-मन्त्रः, सर्व-दुःख प्रशमनः, सत्यम् अमिथ्यत्वात् । Therefore one should know the perfection of wisdom by this great mantr, the mantra of great wisdom, the utmost mantra, the unequalled mantra. All the layer of all suffering, in truth for how else could it be?

प्रज्ञापारमितायाम् उक्तो मन्त्रः। तधथा -- 'गते गते पारगते पारसंगते बोधि स्वाहा'॥
By the perfection of wisdom is this mantra arrived. All thus, gone gone gone beyond, gone altogether beyond 0 what an awakening.

इति प्रज्ञा पारमिता हृदय सूत्रं समाप्तम्॥
 

IndianHawk

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Of course manifestation is not 'Agyan' (ignorance), manifestation is the result of "Brahman" experiencing the 'Agyan'. Manifestation and divisions are the same, they are the result of Ignorance rising in the Brahman. According to Advaitins, duality /manifestations of the otherwise singular Brahman is unreal and what is unreal cannot go away (because it really doesn't exist). What needs to go away, according to Advaita, is ignorance. Since it's ignorance that causes singular to become duality, the absence of ignorance automatically ceases duality.

Your point as to why we are Agyani or experience duality, is pertinent. Depending on which school of thought you pose this question, your question may even be termed as misdirected. The school of Advaita may say your query is misdirected, because we (the duality) are not experiencing the Agyan(ignorance) but the Brahman is. We(duality) are just the result of this experience of ignorance of the Brahman. Advaita does not adequately address the cause of existence of ignorance (Agyana) in the Brahman. This is is why Shankara came up with the theory of Mayavada. But in my opinion Mayavada again only describes the effects of ignorance, but not why ignorance exists in the first place. This is where Advaitins end up contradicting their theory. Now even if we concede that duality is unreal and hence does not really exist, but is ignorance real. If Agyana (ignorance) is real and manifestly inherent in the brahman, without a proper argument as to why it exists, we have to assume that duality is the nature of the brahman.

It is this contradiction that the buddhist and Dvaitins/Vishishtadvaitins latch on to and subject Advaitins to criticism. The Advaitin counter argument is the causation theory. Since the existence of the duality is dependent on existence of ignorance and existence of ignorance is dependent on the existence of the brahman, duality and ignorance are hence dependent on the presence of the brahman. Ignorance/duality need the existence of the brahman, but not vice-versa. This is where we must see the buddhist argument of Sunyata comes in. If the vedantins cannot explain the cause of ignorance, then ignorance is inherent quality of the brahman and hence the only solution to dissolving ignorance is to dissolve the brahman (in which the ignorance originates)
There is an inherent contradiction in all theories whether they are of Shankaracharya or Buddhist monks. That they are just theories. In my previous post that is why I imphasised on actual practice and not theory.

One could question shunyata on same basis , what is the need of life and physical bodies if shunyata will prevail?

Yagyavalyak said the bramhan can't be understood intellectually . Because our intellect is simply not the tool.

Even buddha word means just that
: Buddam pargato Buddhi :

Buddha is someone who has translated beyond intellect.

Given your level of understanding I'm sure you also understand the limitation of discussing this on a forum . So I suggest you should listen to j Krishnamurti . His videos are on YouTube . And he takes things from theory to practice.

He talks about absolute clarity that destroys all conflict immediately. To reach that clearly one must pay complete attention to one's own self.
That is no wastage of energy anywhere else.

When all sense are in complete attention the memory stops recording and then mind is free from memory ( karma) and in it's original state.
That is where clarity is and from that clarity comes pure right action.

I will concede I have no actual answer even academically as to why bramhan would experience agyan even for a second? It doesn't make any sense . But listening Krishnamurti I understand it must be logical and rational .
My inability to understand is because somehow my logic is convoluted .

It's like a child not understanding Nuance of life which only an old man can understand.

Sadhguru says it's like hitting puberty. Your entire perception changes fundamentally. Suddenly a women has sexual appeal whereas before puberty no such thing was there.

It is not logical by intellectual point but now we understand the role of hormones and their effect on our life . But to a pre puberty boy a women is just not sexual ! He can't understand it despite all his efforts and readings and intellectual discussions.

So is the realm of enlightened . It's an immediate thing which can only be experienced and not discussed. I rest my case. Good luck to your understanding.

Sent from my C103 using Tapatalk
 

S.A.T.A

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There is an inherent contradiction in all theories whether they are of Shankaracharya or Buddhist monks. That they are just theories. In my previous post that is why I imphasised on actual practice and not theory.

One could question shunyata on same basis , what is the need of life and physical bodies if shunyata will prevail?

Yagyavalyak said the bramhan can't be understood intellectually . Because our intellect is simply not the tool.

Even buddha word means just that
: Buddam pargato Buddhi :

Buddha is someone who has translated beyond intellect.

Given your level of understanding I'm sure you also understand the limitation of discussing this on a forum . So I suggest you should listen to j Krishnamurti . His videos are on YouTube . And he takes things from theory to practice.

He talks about absolute clarity that destroys all conflict immediately. To reach that clearly one must pay complete attention to one's own self.
That is no wastage of energy anywhere else.

When all sense are in complete attention the memory stops recording and then mind is free from memory ( karma) and in it's original state.
That is where clarity is and from that clarity comes pure right action.

I will concede I have no actual answer even academically as to why bramhan would experience agyan even for a second? It doesn't make any sense . But listening Krishnamurti I understand it must be logical and rational .
My inability to understand is because somehow my logic is convoluted .

It's like a child not understanding Nuance of life which only an old man can understand.

Sadhguru says it's like hitting puberty. Your entire perception changes fundamentally. Suddenly a women has sexual appeal whereas before puberty no such thing was there.

It is not logical by intellectual point but now we understand the role of hormones and their effect on our life . But to a pre puberty boy a women is just not sexual ! He can't understand it despite all his efforts and readings and intellectual discussions.

So is the realm of enlightened . It's an immediate thing which can only be experienced and not discussed. I rest my case. Good luck to your understanding.

Sent from my C103 using Tapatalk
I suppose it's all academic knit picking at the end of the day and intellectual weight lifting can only get us thus far on the path to enlightenment. Buddhist speak of a Bhikshuni who realized enlightenment after watching sea waves lap her feet. Our own Ramana Maharshi underwent self realization, at the age of 16, in his study after a sumptuous lunch... Thank you for the enlightened engagement.
 

bhramos

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not sure to post it here are not......... sorry if wrong thread......

एक वृद्ध ब्राह्मण की पहले यग्योपवित(जनेऊ) काटी फिर कपड़े उतार कर भीड़ ने डांस करने के लिए मजबूर किया। ये स्थिति है दक्षिण के @INCIndia शासित राज्यों की @RahulGandhi जी क्या यह अल्पसंख्यक ब्राह्मणों के साथ मोब लिंचिंग नही है?

The first yagyopit (janeu) of an old Brahmin was then stripped off and forced by the crowd to dance. This is the situation: @INCIndia Is it not mob @RahulGandhi lynching with minority Brahmins in the Southern States?

 

Suryavanshi

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@Haldiram i remember u once talked about ISKCON trying to augemnt Hinduism into a monotheist spirituality.

TBH I've been noticing the same.
They preach more about krishna than anyone else. It's always krishna krishna.
While krishna worship isn't the problem, when u start dissing other deities thats the problem. Thats basically like Replacing Jessus with Krishan and abusing others.

A senior Of mine is an Iskcon memebrs but he respects all hindu deities so I can say this is not the norm.
But I'm more worried about what they are tarching at home but more so for what they are teaching to foreigners.
Call this my hypothesis but I believe Caucasian race can't appreciate a polytheistic religion or rather their mind can't process it. So they have to be spoonfed a Understandable version of our religion which ultimately comes down to a monotheistic religious doctrine.
The problem isn't monotheism, polytheism or atheism, the problem is lack of respect for other beliefs. It all comes down to my god greater than yours.
It's like basically asking a DC fan which is better Characters Joker or Batman?
What do u suppose the nigga gonna reply ?
He may consider Joker better or Batman better. But he goes to see Batman movies or vice versa. Both are the essence of DC. One is undefined without the other, they complement each other. U can't have tails without the head.

I am not dissing Iskcon but the way they are teaching things may create problem in the future.
 

Berkut

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@Haldiram i remember u once talked about ISKCON trying to augemnt Hinduism into a monotheist spirituality.

TBH I've been noticing the same.
They preach more about krishna than anyone else. It's always krishna krishna.
While krishna worship isn't the problem, when u start dissing other deities thats the problem. Thats basically like Replacing Jessus with Krishan and abusing others.

A senior Of mine is an Iskcon memebrs but he respects all hindu deities so I can say this is not the norm.
But I'm more worried about what they are tarching at home but more so for what they are teaching to foreigners.
Call this my hypothesis but I believe Caucasian race can't appreciate a polytheistic religion or rather their mind can't process it. So they have to be spoonfed a Understandable version of our religion which ultimately comes down to a monotheistic religious doctrine.
The problem isn't monotheism, polytheism or atheism, the problem is lack of respect for other beliefs. It all comes down to my god greater than yours.
It's like basically asking a DC fan which is better Characters Joker or Batman?
What do u suppose the nigga gonna reply ?
He may consider Joker better or Batman better. But he goes to see Batman movies or vice versa. Both are the essence of DC. One is undefined without the other, they complement each other. U can't have tails without the head.

I am not dissing Iskcon but the way they are teaching things may create problem in the future.
When I see ISKON and their preachers, I remember the old adage "Loha lohe ko kaat ta hai"
They take on the Abrahamics in their own game, which I enjoy.
They spread gau rakhsha which I find endearing
They market n package well, which all Hindutva proponents should learn.

Are they perfect, are they preaching the truest essence of Santana, not by a long shot. But I feel they are allies. At least for the moment.
 

hit&run

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@Haldiram i remember u once talked about ISKCON trying to augemnt Hinduism into a monotheist spirituality.

TBH I've been noticing the same.
They preach more about krishna than anyone else. It's always krishna krishna.
While krishna worship isn't the problem, when u start dissing other deities thats the problem. Thats basically like Replacing Jessus with Krishan and abusing others.

A senior Of mine is an Iskcon memebrs but he respects all hindu deities so I can say this is not the norm.
But I'm more worried about what they are tarching at home but more so for what they are teaching to foreigners.
Call this my hypothesis but I believe Caucasian race can't appreciate a polytheistic religion or rather their mind can't process it. So they have to be spoonfed a Understandable version of our religion which ultimately comes down to a monotheistic religious doctrine.
The problem isn't monotheism, polytheism or atheism, the problem is lack of respect for other beliefs. It all comes down to my god greater than yours.
It's like basically asking a DC fan which is better Characters Joker or Batman?
What do u suppose the nigga gonna reply ?
He may consider Joker better or Batman better. But he goes to see Batman movies or vice versa. Both are the essence of DC. One is undefined without the other, they complement each other. U can't have tails without the head.

I am not dissing Iskcon but the way they are teaching things may create problem in the future.
So what is Shaivism vs Vaishnavism?
 

N4tsula67

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So what is Shaivism vs Vaishnavism?
Well this issue has been resolved for hundreds of years. Shaiva may say Bhagwan Shiva is greatest but would never deny his importance of Shri Vishnu and Vaishnava too will never deny importance of Mahadev.
And then there is this
आकाशात् पतितं तोयं यथा गच्छति सागरम्।
सर्वदेवनमस्कारः केशवं प्रतिगच्छति॥
Like how all the waters which fall from the skies eventually reach the ocean, the prayers to any and all gods reach Keshava eventually.
 
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