USSR planned nuclear attack on China

[Rage]

On the topic, I find it absoloutely fantastical that the USSR would 'nuke' China. And what then? Establish a pliant state, in a country that has been known to fight off far worse excesses by the Japanese. The Chinese would have lost hands down, but their regular riots would have bankrupted the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union could not afford to compete against America, hold down Eastern Europe, proliferate Communism in Latin America and Africa, move to counter US military influence with bases in Latin America, invade and control Czechoslovakia under the "Action Program", redoubt in a time of growing Western European influence, fight a very turbid and vicious espionage war against them, maintain a good economy and entrammel China at the same time.

Besides, there must have been a bigger POD for the Russians to nuke the Chinese, not just the border skirmish. And the Chinese, knowing that full well, would have prevented the border skirmish from turning into a full-blown war.

 

[mayfair]

On the topic, I find it absoloutely fantastical that the USSR would 'nuke' China. And what then? Establish a pliant state, in a country that has been known to fight off far worse excesses by the Japanese. The Chinese would have lost hands down, but their regular riots would have bankrupted the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union could not afford to compete against America, hold down Eastern Europe, proliferate Communism in Latin America and Africa, move to counter US military influence with bases in Latin America, invade and control Czechoslovakia under the "Action Program", redoubt in a time of growing Western European influence, fight a very turbid and vicious espionage war against them, maintain a good economy and entrammel China at the same time.

Besides, there must have been a bigger POD for the Russians to nuke the Chinese, not just the border skirmish. And the Chinese, knowing that full well, would have prevented the border skirmish from turning into a full-blown war.

Are you kidding mate? Chinese fought off nothing..the nationalist forces were buggered left right and centre by the Japanese while the esteemed Chairman kept his commie forces in reserve only for him to swoop in and grab power after the Japanese were forced out of Manchuria by- Soviet Union and allied pressure elsewhere. Mao is on record saying that had it not been for Japanese occupation of Machuria and Eastern China, he would have never been able to grab power.

But you are right, holding on to Chinese territory would have been much more difficult for Soviet Union than nuking them into oblivion. It would have stretched their resources thin and allowed Americans a free shot at the time and place of their choosing. Perhaps it would have seen the independence of Tibet and Turkestan, with Inner Mongolia being absorbed into Mongolia. But the resulting chaos would have been too much for any one to handle..USSR would not have appreciated Chiang Kai Shek or his cronies returning to take up the reins in Beijing. It would have mean another American ally on their borders..I believe these considerations may have played a role in their thought process.

Nino_cn our support of USSR blackmail is far far better than your reprehensible actions in propping up genocidal regimes in North Korea, Pakistan, Sudan and Zimbabwe. Coming from you it's a case of unlit coal mine shaft calling a kettle black.

 

[pmaitra]

Some excerpts from Wikipedia that clearly sum up the Sino-Soviet split that started circa. 1960:

In 1959, Premier Khrushchev met with US President Dwight Eisenhower (1953–61) to decrease Soviet–American tensions and with the Western world in the Cold War. Moreover, the USSR was alarmed by the Great Leap Forward, had reneged on aiding Chinese nuclear weapons development, and refused to side with them in the Sino-Indian War (1962), by maintaining a moderate relation with India — actions offensive to Mao as Chinese Leader. Hence, he perceived Khrushchev as too-conciliatory with the West, despite Soviet prudence in international politics that threatened nuclear warfare (i.e., the US and USSR were nuclear powers by the late 1950s), wherein the USSR managed superpower confrontations such as the status of post-war Berlin.

Mao Zedong and Premier Khrushchev
At first, the Sino–Soviet split manifested itself indirectly; polemics between the CPSU and the CPC criticized each others' pupils — China denounced Tito, the USSR denounced Enver Hoxha, leader of the People's Socialist Republic of Albania; but, in 1960, they directly criticized each other in the Romanian Communist Party congress, when Khrushchev and Peng Zhen openly quarrelled. Premier Khrushchev insulted Chairman Mao Zedong as "a nationalist, an adventurist, and a deviationist". In turn, Mao insulted Khrushchev as a Marxist revisionist, criticizing him as "patriarchal, arbitrary and tyrannical". In follow-up, Khrushchev denounced China with an eighty-page letter to the conference.
Khrushchev also withdrew nearly all Soviet technical experts from China, leaving some major projects in an unfinished state. Many blueprints and specifications were also withdrawn.

In November 1960, at a congress of 81 Communist parties in Moscow, the Chinese quarrelled with the Soviets and with most other Communist party delegations — yet compromised to avoid a formal ideologic splitting; nonetheless, in October 1961, at the 22nd Congress of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union they again quarreled openly. In December, the USSR severed diplomatic relations with the People's Socialist Republic of Albania, graduating the Soviet–Chinese ideological dispute from between political parties to between nation-states.

In 1962, the PRC and the USSR broke relations because of their international actions; Chairman Mao criticized Premier Khrushchev for withdrawing from fighting the US in the Cuban missile crisis (1962) —"Khrushchev has moved from adventurism to capitulationism"; Khrushchev replied that Mao's confrontational policies would provoke a nuclear war. Simultaneously, the USSR sided with India against China in the Sino-Indian War (1962). Each régime followed these actions with formal ideological statements; in June 1963, the PRC published The Chinese Communist Party's Proposal Concerning the General Line of the International Communist Movement, and the USSR replied with an Open Letter of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union; these were the final, formal communications between the two Communist parties. Furthermore, by 1964, Chairman Mao asserted that a counter-revolution in the USSR had there re-established capitalism; consequently, the Chinese and Russian Communist parties broke relations, and the Warsaw Pact Communist parties followed Soviet suit.

After Leonid Brezhnev deposed Premier Khrushchev in October 1964, the Chinese Prime Minister Zhou Enlai travelled to Moscow, in November, to speak with the new leaders of the USSR, Brezhnev and Alexei Kosygin, but returned disappointed to China, reporting to Mao that the Soviets remained firm; undeterred, Chairman Mao denounced "Khrushchevism without Khrushchev", continuing the polemical.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Soviet_split#Onset

 

[pmaitra]

Are you kidding mate? Chinese fought off nothing..the nationalist forces were buggered left right and centre by the Japanese while the esteemed Chairman kept his commie forces in reserve only for him to swoop in and grab power after the Japanese were forced out of Manchuria by- Soviet Union and allied pressure elsewhere. Mao is on record saying that had it not been for Japanese occupation of Machuria and Eastern China, he would have never been able to grab power.

But you are right, holding on to Chinese territory would have been much more difficult for Soviet Union than nuking them into oblivion. It would have stretched their resources thin and allowed Americans a free shot at the time and place of their choosing. Perhaps it would have seen the independence of Tibet and Turkestan, with Inner Mongolia being absorbed into Mongolia. But the resulting chaos would have been too much for any one to handle..USSR would not have appreciated Chiang Kai Shek or his cronies returning to take up the reins in Beijing. It would have mean another American ally on their borders..I believe these considerations may have played a role in their thought process.

Nino_cn our support of USSR blackmail is far far better than your reprehensible actions in propping up genocidal regimes in North Korea, Pakistan, Sudan and Zimbabwe. Coming from you it's a case of unlit coal mine shaft calling a kettle black.

You are correct in almost everything you said, except for the 'holding on to Chinese territory' part. Assuming that Inner Mongolia, East Turkestan and Tibet are non-Chinese territories (they always were non-Chinese in my books), USSR would have only had to keep tabs on whatever is left of China taking the aforementioned territories out.

USSR would have easily included Inner Mongolia into Mongolia - thus retaining strong Soviet influence on Mongolia in whole, established a Manchu SSR in Manchuria, an East Turkestan SSR in East Turkestan and probably collaborated with India to create an independent Tibet friendly with both India and the USSR.

Mao is very lucky USSR did not really nuke China at that time. China was very vulnerable and even in 1962, if India judiciously used it's air-force, would have successfully repelled and defeated the invading Chinese forces from across the Himalayas.

Now consider USSR invading PRC from across the Ussuri river (USSR had to, because Khabarovsk was at risk and if lost, would cut off the Trans-Siberian Railway, and thus the port of Vladivostok and potentially Kamchatka), Uighurs starting a bloody rebellion, Tibetans following suit and India, USSR, Vietnam and US joining hands to keep PRC under control (keep in mind US offer to USSR to jointly invade PRC).

Now the question is, what would Pakistan have done at that point and how would the Cuban Missile Crisis have influenced all this?

Rather complicated, methinks!

 

[Rage]

Are you kidding mate? Chinese fought off nothing..the nationalist forces were buggered left right and centre by the Japanese while the esteemed Chairman kept his commie forces in reserve only for him to swoop in and grab power after the Japanese were forced out of Manchuria by- Soviet Union and allied pressure elsewhere. Mao is on record saying that had it not been for Japanese occupation of Machuria and Eastern China, he would have never been able to grab power.

You need to reference the events of the second Sino-Japanese war, particularly those during and after 1938. Here's a start- scroll down to the end and take a look at the victorious flags in each engagement:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Sino-Japanese_War

Here's a small section of Chinese resistances in the War:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Changsha
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Wuhan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundred_Regiments_Offensive

Some 17 of the 37 (or 42, I can't remember which) of the engagements that happened during the war were won by the (mostly Kuomintang) Chinese resistance.

Shanghai and Nanking were not the only, even if they were the most visceral, battles in that engagement.

 

[sandeepdg]

Great, The USSR wanted to nuke China, and the Americans stopped them with their nuke threat ! Now, both of them are fighting for putting a leash on the Chinese, what an irony ! Wish it had happened, would have eased our troubles a lot. Pakistan wouldn't have had the guts to play the China card, leaving them totally handicapped. Phew, so many benefits gone down the drain. Stupid, short-sighted Americans ! :angry_10:

 

[nimo_cn]

Not necessarily, as long as you give up our territories and live in your corner. And ofcourse, stop the illegal detention, demographic subsumption and territorial occupation of Tibet.

Well, i just wanted to find out Indian's attitude towards nuclear blackmail. So please don't drag in the conflicts between China and India.

 

[nimo_cn]

Nino_cn our support of USSR blackmail is far far better than your reprehensible actions in propping up genocidal regimes in North Korea, Pakistan, Sudan and Zimbabwe. Coming from you it's a case of unlit coal mine shaft calling a kettle black.

I am not judging you, no need to lecture me on what is better and what is worse.

I don't blame you for your supporting USSR's nuclear blackmail. I have expected Indian is gonna defend USSR on this.

 

[sandeepdg]

I am not judging you, no need to lecture me on what is better and what is worse.

I don't blame you for your supporting USSR's nuclear blackmail. I have expected Indian is gonna defend USSR on this.

Yes, sweetheart, we would always have defended USSR !

 

[Rage]

Well, i just wanted to find out Indian's attitude towards nuclear blackmail. So please don't drag in the conflicts between China and India.

The Sino-Indian conflicts slash disputes are why we would've supported a Soviet nuclear strike upon you.

 

[Tshering22]

So once again it comes down to one factor---US is the one responsible for all our external threats today. Makes me hate Obama's fake indecisive and neutral attitude all the more.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

I am not judging you, no need to lecture me on what is better and what is worse.

I don't blame you for your supporting USSR's nuclear blackmail. I have expected Indian is gonna defend USSR on this.

with China almost 100% responsible for Pakistan's nuclear weapons program isn't this hypocritical??

 

[kickok1975]

Interesting. Indian here are so hostile to China, they hope China got nuked and millions of Chinese got killed! I just enjoyed several Indian movie recently and thought they were nice beautiful people. I guess I have to think twice.

 

[pmaitra]

Interesting. Indian here are so hostile to China, they hope China got nuked and millions of Chinese got killed! I just enjoyed several Indian movie recently and thought they were nice beautiful people. I guess I have to think twice.

On the contrary, we have been double crossed by PRC. While India gave up it's permanent UNSC seat in favour of PRC, PRC back-stabbed India be occupying its territories. If that was not enough, PRC is supporting Pakistan and arming it to it's teeth knowing very well that Pakistan is responsible for deaths to so many people in India.

I personally don't like any kind of violence. I do not support killing of civilians, be they in any country. However, if by supporting the nuking of PRC we can put an end to the deaths and sufferings to our own people, then so be it. If I had to chose between my countrymen (Indians) or someone else to die, be it through nukes or terrorism, I'd rather chose the other country's people, not mine.

Hope that puts everything in perspective.

BTW, I am not impressed by your emotional outbursts. The dogs won't bark, mate!

 

[mayfair]

Interesting. Indian here are so hostile to China, they hope China got nuked and millions of Chinese got killed! I just enjoyed several Indian movie recently and thought they were nice beautiful people. I guess I have to think twice.

It's hard to be all cuddly with a country (except if you are an Indian communist), which
-has a formidable nuclear arsenal pointed your way;
-is in illegal possession of several thousand square kilometres of our territory;
-is known for encouraging and supporting terrorist groups operating in our territory;
-is arming and supporting our western neighbour with nuclear and conventional devices of mass destruction
-whose think tanks have openly advocated balkanisation of India.

How much love and adoration you folks have for the US?

 

[ganesh177]

Interesting. Indian here are so hostile to China, they hope China got nuked and millions of Chinese got killed! I just enjoyed several Indian movie recently and thought they were nice beautiful people. I guess I have to think twice.

Its not the time to think twice, its time to think why indians have concerns about chinese people.
Indians are not going to be comfortable with china supporting their hostile nations with nuclear proliferation which is meant only for india.
Here is the difference, you see china taking actual steps for strenghtning the hostile neighbours of india for nuke attacks. China surrounding india with string of pearls, china making its presence in disputed parts of india.Now that is not going to make indians so nice for you once you have such aspirations in south asia.

Be nice, if you like nice gesture.

 

[Ray]

I wonder if the Soviet leaders would have even contemplated nuking anyone. The consequences would have been disastrous.

Nonetheless, an interesting man bite dog.

A 'What if' sort of gupshup!

 

[Ray]

Interesting. Indian here are so hostile to China, they hope China got nuked and millions of Chinese got killed! I just enjoyed several Indian movie recently and thought they were nice beautiful people. I guess I have to think twice.

I don't think Indians are hostile to China.

They are amused, and at times browned off, with the Chinese arrogance that the world is their own goldfish bowl!

Same way as the world was browned off in not too distant past of the US and their arrogance that all must toe their line.

 

[pmaitra]

I agree with most of what you said, except:

It's hard to be all cuddly with a country (except if you are an Indian communist), which

What is your basis for this argument? Do you have any evidence to back up your claim? If you do, please share with us. I have plenty to prove that Indian communists have differed a lot and on many issues, both with the USSR as well as the PRC. Being communist does not, by default, make one an ally of either USSR or PRC.

-is known for encouraging and supporting terrorist groups operating in our territory;

PRC is known to be encouraging Pakistan which is turn is supporting terrorists, but there is no evidence that PRC is supporting terrorists. If you have any such evidence, please share with us.

 

[Ray]

Pakistan is a rogue and is a client state of China. She kowtows with utmost respect to the diktats from the Forbidden City.

China has supported uprising and rogue governments as also terrorists.

Zimabwe, Sudan are but recent examples.

PRC is too crafty to be directly linked with terrorists.

They supplied arms and ammunition to the Mujhs in the anti Soviet uprising in Afghanistan in cohorts with the US and Pakistan. This well documented. Cooley's Unholy Wars in one such book that mentions this.

There extending financial and weapons aid to the NE insurgents are also well established and have appeared so in the media and elsewhere.

It is also believed that the Red Corridor in India has a surfeit of Chinese weaponry. The Indian indignation does not find expression with the govt in the same manner there is no indignation on the Govt's part over the repeated Chinese incursions into Indian territory along the LAC.