US and Indian troops to begin training together for war

[Daredevil]

US and Indian troops to begin training together for war

(Photos: US and Indian troops sharing expertise during previous Yudh Abhyas exercises)

by Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 24th August 09

Since 2004, American GIs and Indian jawans have trained together to combat terrorists and insurgents. Now, the two armies are about to begin training to fight a war together.

Underlining the growing military-to-military relationship, a US Army battalion group of several hundred soldiers and some 50 frontline Stryker armoured vehicles, will travel to India in October and train with Indian strike formation units at the Babina Field Firing Ranges near Jhansi. This exercise, named Yudh Abhyas 2009, will include live firing by heavy combat vehicles.

It will be the first time mechanised units of an Indian strike corps, which bases its power on T-72 and T-90 tanks, BMP-II infantry combat vehicles, missiles and 155-mm medium artillery guns, will train or share expertise with any foreign army. The Indian units taking part will be selected from the Jhansi-headquartered 31 Armoured Division.

The annual Yudh Abhyas exercises (which US soldiers are told is pronounced as “You da Boss”) kicked off in March 2004, when 60 Indian jawans and 55 US soldiers from Alaska jointly raided mock insurgent hideouts in the jungles of Mizoram.

Since then, Yudh Abhyas has expanded each year in size, scope and complexity. Last November, in Yudh Abhyas 08, an Indian Air Force IL-76 aircraft had flown a company (120 soldiers) of Indian jawans to Hawaii for training in counter-insurgency with US soldiers of the US Pacific Command. Their simulated operations were controlled by India’s 49 Infantry Brigade, which set up a command post in Hawaii as part of the exercise.

But Yudh Abhyas 2009 will impart a different trajectory to the military-to-military relationship. This is no longer about raids on insurgent hideouts or terrorist camps; strike corps training is for fighting a full-scale war together. This year, American and Indian mechanised forces will synchronise operations, planning, manoeuvring and firing together to capture a simulated objective.

Senior Indian Army officers have confirmed to Business Standard that the US Army Stryker vehicles and crews will be transported to India by sea. They will come from the US Pacific Command, or US PACOM, which is headquartered in Hawaii and which oversees US military interests from the US west coast to the western border of India.

Starting from Pakistan, and extending across West Asia, the US Central Command (CENTCOM) is responsible for American military interests. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are under the jurisdiction of CENTCOM.

Approached for their comments on Yudh Abhyas 09, the Hawaii-based USPACOM has not responded. But speaking off the record, senior US Army officers have expressed satisfaction at what they term a “quantum jump” in the US-India military relationship.

One US officer notes, “Singapore armoured units have come earlier to Babina to fire their tanks since they don’t have the space to practise in Singapore. Similarly, Singapore air force fighter aircraft fire in Pokhran and artillery units fire near Nashik. But this is not just about firing. Yudh Abhyas 09 will see the two armies practising how to fight a full-scale war together. And the engagement will only grow closer.”

 

[deltacamelately]

Its all about enhancing interoperability. More power to the participating soldiers.

 

[SATISH]

Its all about enhancing interoperability. More power to the participating soldiers.

Sir any chance of us going to war together?

 

[Officer of Engineers]

This is just a dog-and-pony show. I certainly did not do any yoga exercises with the Americans. To really enhance interoperability, officer exchange is required. Insert one of your guys into our HQ and vice versa. A day or two planning a photo op is not really going to tell you how we solve problems nor us about your problem solving methodologies.

 

[Ratus Ratus]

This is just a dog-and-pony show. I certainly did not do any yoga exercises with the Americans. To really enhance interoperability, officer exchange is required. Insert one of your guys into our HQ and vice versa. A day or two planning a photo op is not really going to tell you how we solve problems nor us about your problem solving methodologies.

Are you suggesting a Cope India in another form?

 

[Officer of Engineers]

I'm thinking more along the lines of RED/MAPLE FLAG. A crash course in how we conduct operations.

 

[Ratus Ratus]

Colonel, my apologies for not being clear in my comment. It was directed more at the "dog-and-pony show" issue.

The direct exchange process you mention would be more appropriate to the understanding level.
But is that the real intent? (Actually less of a question but more of an implied comment.)

 

[Officer of Engineers]

Colonel, my apologies for not being clear in my comment. It was directed more at the "dog-and-pony show" issue.

How many cameras not wearing a uniform were there at your ex with the Yanks? I counted less than I have fingers on my hand and I'm excluding the thumb.

And did you ever used daylight for yoga ... or anyother PE?

The direct exchange process you mention would be more appropriate to the understanding level.
But is that the real intent? (Actually less of a question but more of an implied comment.)

All I know is that the Indians and NATO troops think very differently. On the surface, we do subscribe to the same operational philosophies. Maneuver to contact. Contact to maneuver. However, their methodologies are completely different.

Being an engineer, it was always my assumption that my engineers will lead the charge through a minefield. Their infantry wouldn't even stop to blink before crossing it enmassed.

It is those kind of differences that must be ironed out and understood before we can embark upon joint operations. The last thing I need is Indian infanteers charging a minefield that I was clearing with artillery.

 

[Om3357]

I don't see any chance of the US going to war with India against any country if it isn't for it's own benefit.
Having said that, it's still great to see the US army training with their Indian counterparts. Surely there'll be exchange of combat techniques and precision in warfare for both.

 

[John]

How many cameras not wearing a uniform were there at your ex with the Yanks? I counted less than I have fingers on my hand and I'm excluding the thumb.

And did you ever used daylight for yoga ... or anyother PE?

All I know is that the Indians and NATO troops think very differently. On the surface, we do subscribe to the same operational philosophies. Maneuver to contact. Contact to maneuver. However, their methodologies are completely different.

Being an engineer, it was always my assumption that my engineers will lead the charge through a minefield. Their infantry wouldn't even stop to blink before crossing it enmassed.

It is those kind of differences that must be ironed out and understood before we can embark upon joint operations. The last thing I need is Indian infanteers charging a minefield that I was clearing with artillery.

well normal day begins with early morning yoga, 40km runs with full combat load etc before breakfast on empty stomach. They never go into combat exercises before warming up and this is common among a host of powerful armies. The fact is you may want to clear up the minefield with artillery but knowing Indian tactics, the Indian army would force the enemy to be a victim of their own minefield, we are experts in using enemy tactics and weapons against them. so while fighting together with Indians, the enemy will always fall victim to his own tactic. This happened in Kargil as well, the Paks wanted to take over NH-1 and cut off that area of Kashmir from rest of India, but basically we surrounded them and without ever crossing over into PAk, we cut off pak re-enforcements coming to that area, starved, no decent equipment and fall in morale resulted in over 4000 Pak soldiers massacred. Matter of fact in almost every single type of land based warfare we can school the US soldiers on many things.

Needless to say we have the world's best mountain, jungle and desert warriors, even our basic training exceeds all rigors of any other training program in the world, in sheer combat warfare to find an equivalent to the Indian Jawan is rare. The jawan's training is multi-terrain and takes him through the highest battlefield to the driest deserts to the some of the deepest jungles in Asia and some of the most rugged plains on the planet. Though i admit we need training in using hi-tech equipment, joint tactics and that US is very adept in using.

This training exercise with US will employ Indian troops trying to take out strykers while the US trying to prevent them, this exercise is mostly to school the US army on guerrilla tactics and school Indians on joint operations because our army is used to working on a stand alone basis, we never use any external help during real combat, we fight our own wars and hence require a bit of acclimatisation for fighting together with allied forces.

 

[deltacamelately]

This is just a dog-and-pony show. I certainly did not do any yoga exercises with the Americans. To really enhance interoperability, officer exchange is required. Insert one of your guys into our HQ and vice versa. A day or two planning a photo op is not really going to tell you how we solve problems nor us about your problem solving methodologies.

Sir,
As much of a Dog-And-Pony show this might be, I still feel that the intent still hinges on interoperability. Because otherwise there is no rational in involving mechanised elements of the Strike Corps which are tasked for fighting full-scale wars. The other objectives involved are clearly jointness, synchronise operations, manoeuvring and firing together. Not that this will overnight turn the two forces into one cohesive fighting machinery, but it still is a right step forward

 

[F-14]

but sir delta i am amazed by the sheer number of COPE (Coperatevive excersies ) that the IA and US army has had but this is the most biggest by far with the Involvment of Stryker teams and amour i feel some thing is cooking between the US and India

 

[RPK]

Biggest India-US war game follows China's largest army exercise :: Samay Live

New Delhi: Close on the heels of a high-profile war game launched by the Chinese army, the Indian and US armies and air forces will simultaneously conduct their largest joint drill in October that will feature a variety of armoured vehicles, medium and heavy lift aircraft and helicopters, an official said.
The army element of the exercise will be conducted at Babina in Uttar Pradesh, while the two air forces will engage each other at the Taj Mahal town of Agra.


The US Army will move a fleet of of eight-wheeled Stryker armoured combat vehicles from its Pacific Command headquarters in Hawaii to Babina for operation "Yudh Abhyas" against which will be deployed the Indian Army's T-72 main battle tanks of the 31 Armoured Division that guards India's scorching desert border with Pakistan.


This will be the largest deployment of Strykers, which can withstand rocket-propelled grenades, outside Iraq and Afghanistan. At least 500 American soldiers, mostly drawn from the 2nd Stryker Brigade will participate in the war games.


The aerial element will see the Indian Air Force (IAF) fielding the Il-76, its largest transport aircraft, as also AN-32 medium lift transports and and Mi-17 helicopters. Ranged against them will be US Air Force (USAF) C-17 Globemasters, C-130 J Super Hercules - of which the IAF has ordered six - and C-130 H transport aircraft.


Nearly 200 IAF and 160 USAF personnel will participate in the exercise.


"The exercise is aimed at evaluating the efficacy of joint operations in the realm of tactics, aero-medical aspects and combat search and rescue (CSAR) missions involving medium and heavy lift transport aircraft," an IAF spokesperson said.


China has deployed close to 50,000 troops in its biggest cross-country tactical mobilisation exercise that has sent alarm bells ringing in India as it is being seen as Beijing's efforts to improve its ability to deploy troops in Tibet whenever reinforcements are required.

 

[Officer of Engineers]

Not that this will overnight turn the two forces into one cohesive fighting machinery, but it still is a right step forward

Undoubtly. If nothing else, both sides will step up and show what they can do but you mention interoperality and that takes more work and different tools (Officer Exchange) than these photo ... or video (kids reminding just how old I am) ops.

Major, let me ask you this. When was the last time you had time for PE when told you were doing an ex? I barely had time to sleep, let alone any PE.

 

[Officer of Engineers]

but sir delta i am amazed by the sheer number of COPE (Coperatevive excersies ) that the IA and US army has had but this is the most biggest by far with the Involvment of Stryker teams and amour i feel some thing is cooking between the US and India

The Chinese exercise dwarft this. This is a 2 coy/bn level ex. The Chinese are doing group armies ex up north.

However, this being said, strictly from a military PoV, the Chinese ex has nothing to do with India. They're training on open ground, not mountarin passes.

 

[Ratus Ratus]

How many cameras not wearing a uniform were there at your ex with the Yanks? I counted less than I have fingers on my hand and I'm excluding the thumb.

And did you ever used daylight for yoga ... or anyother PE?

As for the last time I had an ex with the yanks there was NO camera once it got to field work and in bas it was only for the intro shots by Army media pers, all one camera.

As for PE well I was Permanently Extended for the whole field exercise. if that is what you mean by PE. But is you mean the other forget it when? You aint got time to pee in a corner.

Yoga?? for a minute I thought you were suggesting poison = yogurt.

 

[sky]

why does india not help the us in afghanistan,after all its in our back yard and they are our friends and allies.i mean both the us and afghanistan,futhermore we owe the taliban a good beating after they killed indians in kashmir at the behest of pakistan?

 

[Payeng]

why does india not help the us in afghanistan,after all its in our back yard and they are our friends and allies.i mean both the us and afghanistan,futhermore we owe the taliban a good beating after they killed indians in kashmir at the behest of pakistan?

India is helping Afghanistan, of cause not by the guns but with the manufacturing tools and man power.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

why does india not help the us in afghanistan,after all its in our back yard and they are our friends and allies.i mean both the us and afghanistan,futhermore we owe the taliban a good beating after they killed indians in kashmir at the behest of pakistan?

India offers US 120,000 troops for Afghanistan - Military Photos

India offers US 120,000 troops for Afghanistan

Please note that Pakistan has withdrawn a second divisional HQ from the NWFP. We assume its is HQ 23 Division plus the one brigade that went with the HQ to NWFP; Mandeep Singh Bajwa will let us know when he has confirmation. we are approaching the point where two-thirds of the reinforcements sent west are in the process of withdrawing. Please also note Bill Roggio at Long War Journal reports that in the Orakzi agency, one of the seven tribal agencies of the NWFP, Taliban has enforced Sharia law on 15 of 21 tribes in the agency. In other words, the Talibanization of the NWFP is proceeding rapidly. We also have an analysis on why Pakistani soldiers are refusing to fight the insurgents - we already knew why, but for the first time we have information from someone on the scene. We will give it to you tomorrow. But all in all, the US by insisting Pakistan fight the insurgents set itself up for failure. Again, we have said this before, we can now say it from another angle. US policy in the region has to change dramatically if there is to be hope of success in Afghanistan.

Our trusty correspondent, Mandeep Singh Bajwa, informed us this morning that India has offered to send 120,000 troops to Afghanistan. Naturally we asked Mandeep "are we being used by the Indians in a psyops game to put pressure on Pakistan?" Not that the Government of India knows we exist, but in all the movies about the media the Editor always asks if the paper is being played.

Mandeep's answer, paraphrased, was this: "I don't know at what level the offer has been made, but the Indian Army and Air Force are down to identifying specific units, formations, and squadrons..." - details, as we said, at Long War Journal - "...as well as discussing a specific name for force commander, plus working on the details of pre-deployment training, so this is a lot more elaborate than needed for a psyops game.'

We'd prefer to discuss this after we learn more, rather than waste your time with elaborate theories spun out of nothing ("Orbat.com's military sources say..."). But the following points are immediately apparent.

For the new US administration, this offer would be heaven-sent and just making it would put the US Government in debt to the Indians - "your other friends/allies talked, we walked." The administration could turn around to to its own people, and say: "Americans, you complain we are carrying the Afghan burden by ourselves, now we have a partner."

At Orbat.com we've been constantly talking about the need for more manpower; well, here you have a whacking big increment of manpower. With US/Allied troops it takes one to 75% of what Orbat.com considers a minimum force if Afghanistan is to be won.

In one deft swoop, India forces the Americans to chose Delhi over Islamabad. To the Indians the constant US attempt to "balance" the two countries has been a source of serious blood pressure since the 1940s; obviously if the Americans accept it has to be India First from now on and Pakistan gets marginalized. Moreover, the Indians put America up the creek without the paddle regarding Pakistan: "what is it your so-called ally is doing, compared to what we are willing to do."

The devious cunning of the Indian move becomes more apparent when you consider if the US government refuses, the American people are going to get on the Government's case: "The Indians are offering and you're still sticking with those slimey two-timers the Pakistanis?"

For India, offering a huge contingent takes the pressure off the Indian government to act aggressively against Pakistan. India does not have a launch a single sortie against Pakistan to punish it for acting against India. Indian government can tell its own people: "What good will a pinprick do? The Israelis have been bashing up the Palestinians for two decades, and where are the results? What we are doing is to strike a hard blow at Pakistan without crossing the Pakistan border and getting beat up by everyone for provoking war."

Plus India neatly destroys Pakistan's strategic depth objective. The Indians have been wanting to get into the act in Afghanistan for several years, because they know a Taliban government means more fundamentalist pressure on Pakistan and thereby on India. But the Americans have been refusing India help for fear of offending the Pakistanis. For India to get into Afghanistan in force is to again change the paradigm of Indian-Pakistani relations as happened in 1971 when India split East Bengal from Pakistan. For the last almost 40 years India's efforts to marginalize Pakistan have been stymied. If the US accepts the Indian offer, India gains hugely.

But right now a lot of American decision-makers do not care if Pakistan is offended because they see the latter has no interest in fighting the insurgents or helping the US against the Taliban. Once alternate supply routes are available, US can write off Pakistan and as a consequence, paradoxically, vastly increase its leverage in that country.

As for Pakistani/jihadi retaliation against India or the Indian contingent in Afghanistan, we've said before the Indians don't care. Their point is India is squarely in the sights of the jihadis: India is already under severe, sustained attack and unable to retaliate. As for the security of the Indian troops, that really is the last thing the Indians are concerned about. They want to go to Afghanistan to fight, not to protect their troops against suicide bombers.

Two other minor points in passing. By making this offer, India takes the wind out of Pakistan's sails because the latter has very successful turned the world's attention from the Bombay atrocity to getting the world to stop escalation between India and Pakistan. Every day that goes by, India has less diplomatic/geopolitical freedom to hit Pakistan. But if India has offered several divisions for Afghanistan, obviously the last thing the Indians are thinking of is attacking Pakistan - 3/4th of the Army troops (as opposed to the CI troops) India is earmarking for Afghanistan are from the three strike corps. So India undercuts Pakistani claims that Delhi is preparing to attack.

The second point we find interesting. PRC knows if Pakistan falls to the jihadis, Sinkiang is the next target. By offering to go to Afghanistan, India is directly helping Beijing. Which puts Beijing in a very awkward spot as India is a big rival for influence in Asia. Not only will Indians be helping PRC, if China does send troops to Afghanistan, Delhi will canoodle with Washington without competition from China. The Chinese will have no choice but to join the Afghan venture or lose influence in South and Central Asia, and with Washington.

To sum up: Orbat.com has been second to none in bashing the Government of India as incompetent and impotent. But with this offer, India has overnight changed the rules of game in South/Central Asia and struck a potentially fatal blow at Pakistan. In the end, this could become much, much bigger by an order of magnitude than breaking off East Pakistan in 1971.



India offered to send 120,000 troops

India not invited to send troops to Afghanistan: US commander

Offer was refused because of Pakistan

'US will hand Afghanistan over to Pak'

 

[John]

why does india not help the us in afghanistan,after all its in our back yard and they are our friends and allies.i mean both the us and afghanistan,futhermore we owe the taliban a good beating after they killed indians in kashmir at the behest of pakistan?

well we had indeed planned to send a 120,000, actually had we done so, there would have been no Taliban in Afghan by now, all those nutjobs in caves and mud-huts would have been killed or captured. Forget what NATO is doing in Afghan, Even India's 50,000 would have got the job done. NATO is hardly experienced in counter insurgency and guerrilla tactics. By the way we are helping in re-construction of roads, infrastructure projects etc. matter of fact we are the largest contributors of man power for re-construction projects.

Matter of fact we should be the ones in SWAT as well, those hairy mujahid cunts would have been shaven clean by now. The Paks are shit scared of India, they know if the Indian jawan was unleashed in Afghan, The Taliban, Al-kraker and other jihadi asswipes would have been wiped out and PAk would have no means to execute covert attacks on Indian soil just like 26/11. They cant stand that, its their pussy strategy to talk shit about peace and meanwhile finance and back terror activities in India, they would rather starve than give up chances to attack India through those nut jobs.

**** em, let them deal with their own problems and we'll deal with ours.