US and Indian troops to begin training together for war

deltacamelately

Professional
Joined
Mar 25, 2009
Messages
134
Likes
6
Undoubtly. If nothing else, both sides will step up and show what they can do but you mention interoperality and that takes more work and different tools (Officer Exchange) than these photo ... or video (kids reminding just how old I am) ops.

Major, let me ask you this. When was the last time you had time for PE when told you were doing an ex? I barely had time to sleep, let alone any PE.
Sir,

None so as to say honestly. The more one craved for...the lesser one got.
 

Officer of Engineers

Professional
Joined
May 22, 2009
Messages
650
Likes
11
And the sad part is is how fast your body adapts to a lack of activity. I needed sleep more than anything else after an ex but man, it was hard doing those 5 mile runs after a week off.
 
J

John

Guest
And the sad part is is how fast your body adapts to a lack of activity. I needed sleep more than anything else after an ex but man, it was hard doing those 5 mile runs after a week off.
which is why Indian army focuses on consistent and disciplined training, its never ending. Indian army soldiers often look starved, even tired and sickly but the fact is they have been carved into lean mean fighting machines. Whether the Seals, Rangers or Deltas the only way for continued effectiveness is continuous training and simulation. sure the Chinese exercise was bigger but last year we had an even bigger exercise in which over 300 k soldiers took part.

However just because this is a small exercise of around a 1000 soldiers doesn't mean its any less effective. In the event of war massive columns are useless and aren't very maneuverable, given the ripe conditions our 1000 could easily wipe out 50 k Chinese or Paks. Our army tactics rely on the fact that our battalions, our companies are small, heavily armed and very maneuverable, they use blitzkrieg style fast and quick attacks which could leave an entire division of enemies paralyzed. Secondly we know our enemy terrain well, most of our Army training is based in geographical conditions found both in Pak and China. Thirdly we can spot the chinese miles away, but they can't spot a single Gurkha standing right in front of them. Plus Gurkhas, nagas, gharwals, kumaouns etc are taught to speak and understand Chinese. Same way we can spot a Pak miles away but they can't spot a single punjab regiment jawan right in front of them. our bio-diversity helps in wartime.
 

Officer of Engineers

Professional
Joined
May 22, 2009
Messages
650
Likes
11
well normal day begins with early morning yoga, 40km runs with full combat load etc before breakfast on empty stomach.
A simple calorie count with a 160lb man running 40 kms with no pack would consume over 4000 calories, that's well over a pound of human weight loss that much be replaced somehow. Plus your water consumption would be through the roof.

Plus doing 40kms with full packs is about 2 hours.

Like the rest of us here said, we don't have time to pee in the corner.
 

Officer of Engineers

Professional
Joined
May 22, 2009
Messages
650
Likes
11
Whether the Seals, Rangers or Deltas the only way for continued effectiveness is continuous training and simulation.
And you do know that they don't train everyday like that. It's a rotation cycle with one battalion up and ready to go, the other battalion is standing down to heal body and machine (your joints can only take so much), and a 3rd battalion training up for their time on the line.

At the end of the day, it is still a human body, not supermen. There's a limit to what joints and muscles can tolerate. Continued caloric burn on empty stomaches means that you're burning muscle instead of fat ... which is not what you want.

A human body needs 1000 calories just sitting still for a day. Add anything to that and you must eat and eat big. There is no way around this.

However just because this is a small exercise of around a 1000 soldiers doesn't mean its any less effective.
Timeline would suggest otherwise. Coy level ex usually lasts about a week, 72 hours minimum, about the time when you're bingo fuel, water, food, and ammo. Your own Major has stipulated that he doesn't have much time for exercise nor sleep. That is how I remember my exercises.

In the event of war massive columns are useless and aren't very maneuverable,
The US V, VII, and III Corps would strongly disagree with you. So would the Russian 58th Army. 100 miles in 3 days is the best any mechanized formation has ever done.

given the ripe conditions our 1000 could easily wipe out 50 k Chinese or Paks.
Well, no. The best you can do is tilt the balance in face of Mother Nature and let her do the work.

Our army tactics rely on the fact that our battalions, our companies are small, heavily armed and very maneuverable, they use blitzkrieg style
You do know the other name for blitzkreig, right? The one the Wehrmacht actually used? Combined Arms?

fast and quick attacks which could leave an entire division of enemies paralyzed.
Battalions and companies alone would preclude combined arms. Battalions may have a company of tanks but they never dragged tubes with them.

Secondly we know our enemy terrain well, most of our Army training is based in geographical conditions found both in Pak and China.
And does that mean that they train in geographic conditions as the same as yours?

Thirdly we can spot the chinese miles away, but they can't spot a single Gurkha standing right in front of them.
Hogwash. Gurkhas are good, no doubt about that but they're not supermen. Each army got their own SOF. Your Gurkhas couldn't find their spotters if they also so choose.

Plus Gurkhas, nagas, gharwals, kumaouns etc are taught to speak and understand Chinese.
I'm ethnic Chinese and they know I'm from Canada because my accent sucks.

Same way we can spot a Pak miles away but they can't spot a single punjab regiment jawan right in front of them. our bio-diversity helps in wartime.
They will if you adhere to the Geneva Conventions. Otherwise, your regiment would be declared illegal combattants.
 
J

John

Guest
A simple calorie count with a 160lb man running 40 kms with no pack would consume over 4000 calories, that's well over a pound of human weight loss that much be replaced somehow. Plus your water consumption would be through the roof.

Plus doing 40kms with full packs is about 2 hours.

Like the rest of us here said, we don't have time to pee in the corner.
well obviously they start running at 5.30 am and back at 7.30 am, then they get a shower, heavy breakfast, a bit of rest before they head off for the next routine. now imagine doing these runs in well over 48 degrees in peak summer in the desert or at over 10,000 ft during winters when temps reach below -20 degrees. they get multi-terrain training in different battle schools dispersed across the country. Off course 40km runs etc or 20km runs while carrying an 'injured' buddy etc comes over time. Basic army training begins with 20-30km runs, the soldiers have to build up their stamina over time and once they get into an infantry regiment after finishing basic army training , their training goes ballistic, this is when they are fully schooled on their missions, all missions related problems, accounting for variable change combat being such a fluid situation, and most of their infantry training is in the outdoors at extremes, this is where they become warriors. Infantry training is continuous and never stops.
 

Officer of Engineers

Professional
Joined
May 22, 2009
Messages
650
Likes
11
I was up by 04:00 after a 2 hour enforced rest and I was in my CP reading the night's action reports.

Or are you talking parade days?
 
J

John

Guest
i didnt mean blitzkrieg in the German sense, it only means lighting fast. Those US corps you mentioned rely heavily on air support, those 100 miles in 3 days in Iraq is nothing and hardly an achievement. Do you want know how many losses they had in the first few months of war in Iraq?? in the first 2 months they had 80 abrams damaged beyond repair, numbers are appualing for an advanced nation like the US.

The fact is our Gurkhas are not even SOF, they are just an infantry regiment, we have many of such regiments, lets not even talk about Indian Special forces, they have no parallel in the world both in training and mission effectiveness. The fact is in places like AP on the eastern India, we have a lot of Chinese living in India and there is no difference in accent or looks. You wont know all these things till you go over there, i did go to these locations last year.

The fact is bro i don't know how they do it in Canada, besides what does Canada know about war?? Indian army has often pulled impossible odds in many battles, so don't even begin taking about war with us. sure they are not supermen and we'll still have losses, but he who dares wins. Except for the Chinese defeat which will never happen again, India has stood its own many a time. Soon there wont be an enemy in the world that India cant stand against.
 

Officer of Engineers

Professional
Joined
May 22, 2009
Messages
650
Likes
11
i didnt mean blitzkrieg in the German sense, it only means lighting fast. Those US corps you mentioned rely heavily on air support,
Air-Land doctrine. Land formations forces the enemy to mass so that the birds have something to hit. It's part of the same package, not seperate from one another.

If one part is missing, ie land component as in the Kosovo War, the enemy disperses and bury themselves and effectively shielding themselves from air attack. I remind you that during the Kosovo War, only 12 pieces were destroyed and the 3JA was 85-90% still combat effective after 45 days of bombing.

The same thing at Karbala where US attack choppers were chewed up by Iraqi triple As when there was no ground component to drive them out.

Apples and oranges comparison here.

those 100 miles in 3 days is Iraq is nothing and hardly an achievement.
You've got to be kidding me! You want to ask the other two Indian Army Officers on this board about that? The good Major Deltacamelately and the Brigadier Ray?

Do you want know how many losses they had in the first few months of war in Iraq?? in the first 2 months they had 80 abrams damaged beyond repair, numbers are appualing for an advanced nation like the US.
I like to see a source for the beyond repair. As far as I can check, only two ABRAMS were written off, the others got shipped back to the US for factory repairs.

Aside from that, whenever you decide a bet between armour and engineers, always choose the engineers.

The fact is our Gurkhas are not even SOF, they are just an infantry regiment, we have many of such regiments, lets not even talk about Indian Special forces, they have no parallel in the world both in training and mission effectiveness.
They're light infantry and light infantry is always considered a step above physically to mech and motor infantry.

The fact is in places like AP on the eastern India, we have a lot of Chinese living in India and there is no difference in accent or looks. You wont know all these things till you go over there, i did go to these locations last year.
Ok, you're talking about civilian infiltration. You do know that is against the GC of which India is a signatory. Legally, they can be classified as spies and be shot on the spot.

The fact is bro i don't know how they do it in Canada, besides what does Canada know about war??
More or less in a similar standing with India. You know more in one area. We know more in another.

Indian army has often pulled impossible odds in many battles, so don't even begin taking about war with us.
Not India, you. And you will find Canadian military history is filled with as many exploits as yours. For one thing, we were a WWIII Army, as in my brigade was tasked to cover the retreat of VII Corps against 2 Soviet Armies.

sure they are not supermen and we'll still have losses, but he who dares wins. Except for the Chinese defeat which will never happen again, India has stood its own many a time.
And you will stand again, win again, and lose again.

India, in her history, has found some wars to be worth fighting and some not. I cannot see that changing for the future. You will find some wars worth fighting and some not.
 

Antimony

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2009
Messages
487
Likes
14
Air-Land doctrine. Land formations forces the enemy to mass so that the birds have something to hit. It's part of the same package, not seperate from one another.
Thank you, that was what I was trying to understand. Wikipedia just throws up a boatload of junk:((

Wiki also says that Air Land has been outstaged by NCW, and I could not figure out why
 

Officer of Engineers

Professional
Joined
May 22, 2009
Messages
650
Likes
11
Network Centric Warfare basically means you can use someone else's eyes and ears to direct your own gun or somebody else's gun. In bird parelence, your AAM may be guided by an AWACs instead of your own radar mainly because of the superior picture of the AWACs.

On land battlefield, the recce bde's computers will be directing fire mission and detailing enemy fire patterns and observed movements to the vanguard and mainforce.
 

Antimony

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2009
Messages
487
Likes
14
Network Centric Warfare basically means you can use someone else's eyes and ears to direct your own gun or somebody else's gun. In bird parelence, your AAM may be guided by an AWACs instead of your own radar mainly because of the superior picture of the AWACs.

On land battlefield, the recce bde's computers will be directing fire mission and detailing enemy fire patterns and observed movements to the vanguard and mainforce.
But that doesn't necessarily upstage Air Land, does it?

IIRC, such techniques can be used in the individual AIR and LAND components too.
 

Officer of Engineers

Professional
Joined
May 22, 2009
Messages
650
Likes
11
First off, I'll believe NCW when I see it. Saw a lot of individual systems but most ex I've saw the recce bde fighting for its life rather than directing a battle.

2ndly, we're coming into broadband clutter. While an AWACS can guide an AAM, it's damned near impossible to direct a guns battery. That's because AF nets ae different from the Army's and for good reason. Managing an aerial battlespace requires a language that could span 100s of miles.

Army nets are much more localized. I really don't need to hear that there's a dogfight 200 miles away from my position.

Thus, one of the unintended consquences of NCW is the localization of the combat systems involved. Talk to each other when you must but no more.

However, like I said before, I like to see this system in action before I'll believe it.
 

Officer of Engineers

Professional
Joined
May 22, 2009
Messages
650
Likes
11
That's the part sigs have not gotten down but only one other army has demonstrated and practiced that capability and they would be chucking nukes, not rocks.
 

F-14

Global Defence Moderator
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 20, 2009
Messages
1,563
Likes
27
31 Armored Division's Orbat now is:



Division HQ



Reconnaissance Regiment

Divisional Signal Battalion

Defense & Encampment Company

Attack Helicopter Squadron (Mi-35)[1]

Engineer Regiment

Provost unit (Military Police)



Armored Brigade

2 x armored regiments

2 x mechanized infantry battalions



Armored Brigade

2 x armored regiments

1 X mechanized infantry battalion



Armored Brigade

2 x armored regiments

1 x mechanized infantry battalion



Armored Artillery Brigade

3 x medium SP regiments

SATA battery with UAVs (Surveillance and Target Acquisition)

www.ordersofbattle.darkscape.net/site/.../divisions/31div.htm
 

RPK

Indyakudimahan
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2009
Messages
4,970
Likes
229
Country flag
U.S., India to hold joint war games in October_English_Xinhua

WASHINGTON, Aug. 27 (Xinhua) -- The United States and India will hold large joint war games in October, the web site of The Defense News reported Thursday.

A joint land exercise named Yudh-Abhyas will be staged in India's northern military base of Jhansi, while an air exercise named Cope-India will be held in the Indian air force bases in Agra and Chandigarh, according to the report, quoting U.S. and Indian military sources.

The U.S. Army will send 17 Stryker armored vehicles and about 500 soldiers to the three-week Yudh-Abhyas exercise, beginning in the second week of October.

It's going to be one of the largest deployments of such vehicles outside Iraq and Afghanistan. Nearly the entire U.S. 2nd Stryker Brigade will be present.

It will also be the first time that mechanized units of the Indian Army based on Russian-made T-72 and T-90 tanks, BMP-II armored carriers and 155mm artillery guns will share expertise with a foreign army.

The Cope-India exercise will include parachuting operations with transport aircraft from both militaries.

The U.S. air force will field their C-17 Globe master III military transport aircraft and Chinook multimission helicopters in the exercise.
 

Latest Replies

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top