Type 052D China's New Guided Missile Destroyer

p2prada

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The IN would never get SM3 on P17B, it would amount to a massive capability overlap vis a vis P15A/B... Even if the P17A got Mk41 VLS, it would always be aimed at operating ESSM, never 48 SM3's. I can see what you're getting at, but even with AEGIS, P17A will always be a fleet ASW vessel, and a multipurpose frigate at best, in league with the FREMM and Type 26 GCS in tonnage and capability, it'll never compete with AAW vessels like the Hobart class, or even the 052C, let alone the 052D.
Maybe so. A 48 cell Mk41 on a regular Frigate can be dedicated to carry 8 Harpoons(occupying 8 cells) and 32 or 64 ESSMs(occupying 8 or 16 cells). So, the remaining 16 or 24 cells can carry a combination of Nirbhay, SM-6(RIM-174) or SM-3(BMD) missiles.

If we get this combo then we have what we need for Tier 4. Along with Tier 1, 2 and 3 on the same ship with RAM, ESSM and SM-2/SM-6.

Overall I am not sure if IN will go for SM-3 capability though. If we get Tiers 1 through 3, it is plenty. If the Mk 41 is installed, then it will easily match the 052C. Tiers 1 through 3 are already available on Norwegian and Spanish Frigates. The Australian destroyer is very similar to the Spanish frigate with 48 cell Mk41. Anyway even a smaller 40 cell Mk41 will give similar advantages.

All we know is LM has offered Aegis. Nothing to indicate we will go for it, especially SM-3.

Actually I would prefer if IN stays with Barak 1 and 8 and moves towards AAD type system for Tier 3. Indigenous options are much better.

Its not about indulging in a pissing contest. The 054A frigate handles fleet ASW as well as carrying the PLAN's Tier 2 SAM in the HQ16. In ASW suite terms, it's sonar suite includes a bow mounted sonar as well as a towed array backed up with light torpedo's, an ASW rocket launcher and CY1 ASW missiles, making it a rough Talwar equivalent with better anti air and stealth capabilities. It also holds the advantage of carrying an ASW missile, as opposed to just short range rocket launchers on Talwars and Shivaliks.
Not on the Talwar, but the Shivaliks carry 2 Sea Kings for ASW and transport carrying Sea Eagle and Sting Ray.

But yeah, 054A is more or less a Talwar equivalent. The Talwar does not have the ASW missile though.

The IN is following the Euro model of building large tonnage frigates, but is also ordering more n more Talwars from Russia. The PLAN is following a similar path to the Americans and the Ruskies with 4000 ton ocean going ASW platforms which can hold their own in AAW(LCS not included) with 50km SAMs.
The Talwars are mainly to replace an old Frigate called Nilgiri class(6 ships). 6 will most probably be the last for Talwar.

Our best frigate will number 24 hulls in the water, as opposed to 3 Shivaliks and 6 Talwars(possibly more). If you consider the 7 P17A's, then it would be fair to include 054B frigate numbers as well, which will probably reach 24 as well to replace all the older frigates. The PLAN seems to be quite satisfied with a 4000 ton frigate, thus there really is no requirement for a Chinese Shivalik equivalent.
Yeah. We can't match PLAN in the numbers game. We are not required to anyway. :)

Your planned 48 modern Frigates to our planned 19 modern Frigates(you forgot to add a Frigate called P-16A Brahmaputra class, I considered all post 2000 inductions). Anyway I thought the plan is to get 16 054As and not 24.

Your planned 16 modern destroyers to our planned 7 modern destroyers.

Bring in JMSDF and USN, we don't need to do anything though. :p
 

J20!

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Maybe so. A 48 cell Mk41 on a regular Frigate can be dedicated to carry 8 Harpoons(occupying 8 cells) and 32 or 64 ESSMs(occupying 8 or 16 cells). So, the remaining 16 or 24 cells can carry a combination of Nirbhay, SM-6(RIM-174) or SM-3(BMD) missiles.

If we get this combo then we have what we need for Tier 4. Along with Tier 1, 2 and 3 on the same ship with RAM, ESSM and SM-2/SM-6.

Overall I am not sure if IN will go for SM-3 capability though. If we get Tiers 1 through 3, it is plenty. If the Mk 41 is installed, then it will easily match the 052C. Tiers 1 through 3 are already available on Norwegian and Spanish Frigates. The Australian destroyer is very similar to the Spanish frigate with 48 cell Mk41. Anyway even a smaller 40 cell Mk41 will give similar advantages.

All we know is LM has offered Aegis. Nothing to indicate we will go for it, especially SM-3.

Actually I would prefer if IN stays with Barak 1 and 8 and moves towards AAD type system for Tier 3. Indigenous options are much better.
First, t's guaranteed that an AEGIS, ESSM, SM3, SM6 arrangement would be significantly superior to the Barak 1 and Barak 8 on the P15A/B destroyers, which basically guarantees that it would never happen. And even if it were possible, the 8 Billion dollars allocated for the 7 P17A's is no where near enough to equip all 7 frigates with SM3, SM6, ESSM, as well as an AEGIS system integrated on to them. That would cost more than the Spanish F100 does.

Second, you cant compare P17A with the Spanish Frigates, because the F100 are basically AAW destroyers, which the Australian AAW Hobarts are based on. If it got AEGIS it'd most probably be something comparable to the Norwegian frigate, a pocket AEGIS ship, a primarily ASW platform that carries the SPY-1 backed up with 8 Mk41 for the carriage of 32 ESSM.

I know you want it to, but the P17A would never carry a long range SAM that could challenge Barak 8 on the IN's destroyers, and thus it could never challenge S300 carrying AAW destroyers like the 052C. It'll end up looking like the euro frigates ala Type 26 and FREMM. 6000 tonne frigates that carry quad packable medium range SAMs like CAMM on the RN ships or ESSM Norwegian style or even Aster 15 on the FREMMS, it wont integrate SM3 and SM6. Maybe the P15B would, but never a frigate, no matter what its tonnage is.

Yeah. We can't match PLAN in the numbers game. We are not required to anyway. :)

Your planned 48 modern Frigates to our planned 19 modern Frigates(you forgot to add a Frigate called P-16A Brahmaputra class, I considered all post 2000 inductions). Anyway I thought the plan is to get 16 054As and not 24.

Your planned 16 modern destroyers to our planned 7 modern destroyers.

Bring in JMSDF and USN, we don't need to do anything though. :p
Haha! The P16A doesn't even have a proper SAM! What it has is a CIWS missile in Barak 1, how do you compare it to the 054A? Let alone 054B? but if you insist.

There are already 18 054A including 3 under construction in two shipyards, waiting for a fourth:

TYPE 054A launches by date:

# - Pennant - Name - Launch date - Yard
01 - FFG 530 Xuzhou, 2006-0930, HP
02 - FFG 529 Zhoushan,2006-1221, HD
06 - FFG 570 Huangshan, 2007-0318,HD
04 - FFG 568 Hengyang, 2007-0523, HP
05 - FFG 571 Yuncheng, 2009-0208, HP
06 - FFG 569 Yulin, 2009-0428, HD
07 - FFG 548 Yiyang, 2009-1115, HP
08 - FFG 549 Changzhou,2010-0520, HD
09 - FFG 538 Yantai, 2010-0824, HP
10 - FFG 546 Yancheng, 2011-0428, HD
11 - FFG 550 Siping, 2011-0528, HP
12 - FFG 547 Linyi, 2011-1210, HD
13 - FFG 572 Yueyang, 2011-1214 HP
14 - FFG 574 Shaoyang, 2012-0509, HP
15 - FFG 573 Liuzhou, 2012-07nn, HD
--------- Building ---------
16 - FFG 575 Qinzhou, 2013-nnnn HD
17 - FFG 531 Unnamed, 2013-nnn HP
18 - FFG 532 Unnamed, 2013-nnnn HD.

The PLAN's main focus is and always will be the US navy, and with the foreseen increase in DDG's(respectable sources cite a requirement for 24), the IN will always be an afterthought in the PLAN's thinking, behind even the JMSDF in priority and capability.
 
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p2prada

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I know you want it to,
Actually, I don't want it. There would be too much dependence on the Americans, even without the engines. Barak will come with massive ToTs, AEGIS won't.

Haha! The P16A doesn't even have a proper SAM! What it has is a CIWS missile in Barak 1, how do you compare it to the 054A? Let alone 054B? but if you insist.
P-16A is an anti-ship and anti-sub frigate. Not AAW. It carries 2 helicopters while being in the Talwar class region and 6 Torpedo tubes.

The PLAN's main focus is and always will be the US navy, and with the foreseen increase in DDG's(respectable sources cite a requirement for 24), the IN will always be an afterthought in the PLAN's thinking, behind even the JMSDF in priority and capability.
Of course. That's why I said we don't need to do anything. China is not India's enemy after all. We are only rivals. The only major issue between us is the Tibet problem, with the Dalai here, and the ball is in China's court, if you want to escalate then it is up to you to escalate.
 

p2prada

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That's a 32 + 32 cell VLS arranged in blocks of 8, one set in the front and the other in front of the hangar like structure.

 

J20!

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Is This For 052D's?

中国掌握燃气轮机核心部件技术 成本仅国外1/4
The Chinese master gas turbine core components cost only foreign 1/4

燃气轮机是大型客机、特种船舶和民用发电等领域的主要动力源之一,而涡轮高温叶片及其制造技术则是燃气轮机的核心,也是制约我国燃气轮机发展的主要瓶颈。国外对此严格保密,客观上使我国的大飞机、地面燃机等重大工程均受制于人。2008年上海市科委设立重大研究专项课题,针对当前国际上最先进的F级256MW重型燃气轮机涡轮高温叶片开展技术研究和攻关,由上海大学为主承担。

涡轮叶片的制造原理,是将镍基金属溶液浇铸在模具中,再进行冷却结晶,过程类似于冬天水汽在玻璃窗上遇冷结晶形成"冰花"ã€‚涡轮叶片能否耐受高温、是否有足够的强度,和结晶过程中的温度以及晶体形成的数量、甚至方向都有关系。一般来说,晶粒数越少,叶片的耐高温性越好,也越能胜任发电机燃气轮机等高功率设备用途。目前行业内最难的技术,是让整个叶片成为一个晶粒,即"单晶"æŠ€æœ¯ã€‚此外,如果让晶粒有序地向一个方向排列,也能提高叶片强度,避免断裂,此类技术为"定向"æŠ€æœ¯ã€‚通过4年的努力,课题组在上述两种技术路径上均有突破,形成了自己独特的工艺路线。

该项目的成功,不仅有助于我国在燃气轮机关键部件方面突破国外封锁,对于国内发电厂来说也是重大利好消息。以重型燃机的一级涡轮为例,一共有96片高温合金叶片,如果采用国外厂商的产品,一片叶片的制造成本在40万元左右,市场售价达100万元;但如果采用国产叶片,制造成本仅为国外价格的1/4。 (郑远 章迪思 记者王春)





Auto Translation:

The gas turbine is a modern manufacturing, "the source of power, in which the turbine high temperature blade is one of the core components of the gas turbine. On September 12, the significant special issue of the Science and Technology Commission of Shanghai Municipality "high-temperature alloy blade manufacturing technology research" acceptance by experts.

The gas turbine is one of the main power source for large passenger aircraft, special ships and civilian power generation, the blades of the turbine high temperature manufacturing technology is the core of the gas turbine, gas turbine development in China is also constrained the main bottleneck. Strictly confidential abroad this objective on China's large aircraft, the ground gas turbines and other major projects are being manipulated by others. Shanghai Science and Technology Commission, the establishment of a major study of special topics in 2008, to carry out technical studies and research for the current international state-of-the-art F-class the 256MW heavy duty gas turbine high temperature turbine blades, borne mainly by the Shanghai University.

The turbine blade manufacturing principles, the nickel base metal the solution casting mold, then cooling and crystallization, the process is similar to the winter water vapor in the window of the cold case "Ice crystal formation. Whether the turbine blade can withstand high temperatures, and whether there is sufficient strength, and the crystallization process, the temperature and the number of crystal formation, and even the direction have a relationship. Generally, the number of grains less, the better the high-temperature resistance of the blade, the more capable the use of high-power devices of the generator gas turbine. The technology industry hardest, whole leaves to become a grain, that is "single crystal" technology. Furthermore, if the crystal grains are arranged in one direction and orderly manner, but also can improve the blade strength to avoid breakage, such technology is the technique of "targeted". Through four years of hard work, the research group in the path of these two technologies are a breakthrough, formed its own unique process route.

The success of the project, will not only help China to break through the blockade of foreign gas turbine key components for domestic power plants, is also great news. Heavy-duty gas turbine of a turbine, for example, a total of 96 high-temperature alloy blades, if the products of foreign manufacturers, a blade manufacturing costs 400,000 yuan, the retail price of 1 million yuan; domestic blade manufacturing cost is only 1/4 of the foreign price. (Zheng Yuan Zhang Leadis reporter Wang)
 

J20!

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So that's 64 cells in total, once we can see there's no external racks for AShMs then it's confirmed that all missiles will be stored and launched via VLS. Using the now-familiar 48+8 loadout there're 8 vacant cells available for LACM or ASROC, or simply boost the SAM firepower with 8 more HQ-9.

Though of course such loadout is still short of what the Kongo class or Atago class, but in terms of mission profiles it's a large leap for PLAN. This means that the 052D carries 16(be it ASROC, LACM or ASM) more missiles and has better VLS versatility than both the Type 45 and Horizons...

PS. That gun is bigger than I thought it'd be...
 
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p2prada

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A single 256MW engine for a 8000 tons ship? Definitely not. Ships that size use between 30 and 50MW engines.

I think this is for much larger ships like a carrier or extra large, kingsize, never built before container ships.

Most probably for research or power generation in power plants.
 

J20!

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A single 256MW engine for a 8000 tons ship? Definitely not. Ships that size use between 30 and 50MW engines.

I think this is for much larger ships like a carrier or extra large, kingsize, never built before container ships.

Most probably for research or power generation in power plants.
That's what I thought. This is definitely not an engine suited to destroyer size warships for sure... AC's... Maybe.
 

huaxia rox

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So that's 64 cells in total, once we can see there's no external racks for AShMs then it's confirmed that all missiles will be stored and launched via VLS. Using the now-familiar 48+8 loadout there're 8 vacant cells available for LACM or ASROC, or simply boost the SAM firepower with 8 more HQ-9.

Though of course such loadout is still short of what the Kongo class or Atago class, but in terms of mission profiles it's a large leap for PLAN. This means that the 052D carries 16(be it ASROC, LACM or ASM) more missiles and has better VLS versatility than both the Type 45 and Horizons...

PS. That gun is bigger than I thought it'd be...
1 kongo is 9000 ton above displacement and 052D may be 7000??so it cant carry as many missiles as konggo........

2 and while konggo got spy-1 for air defence we (at least i) dont know how good our AESA is....maybe it cant guide HQ-9 to engage as many targets as latest spy-1 at the same time so maybe too many cells r not meaningful........

3 i still hope cj-10 onboard VLS in the future (at least onboard).....which can give the ship some real meaning......
 

charlyondfi

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I can see that continuous effort & mIlestones PLAN has made so far, including this struggle w/ engine, all China can use on hand.

64 cells VLS is perhaps enough for SEA small navies, but definitely NOT for big ones. Modern AAW ships prove to consider 9k tons as minimal. Type 45 & Horizon barely means for take AAW role alone, as they can count on air shield from US Navy or USAF.

It's back to this engine issue again - or you can say related ones such as material & micro chip. I say that before & still wonder 052D is really necessary before China reaches a real break-thru in that front.

Let's see how many they build this 052D. The number will give us some clues about my guessing.
 

AprilLyrics

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1 kongo is 9000 ton above displacement and 052D may be 7000??so it cant carry as many missiles as konggo........

2 and while konggo got spy-1 for air defence we (at least i) dont know how good our AESA is....maybe it cant guide HQ-9 to engage as many targets as latest spy-1 at the same time so maybe too many cells r not meaningful........

3 i still hope cj-10 onboard VLS in the future (at least onboard).....which can give the ship some real meaning......
about the 2:
someone in CD said HQ-9 is initiative,and AESA can guide as many as you want,more than PESA.i cant tell it clearly and i still dont know much about HQ9 and SM3.he seems to say there is no problem for guiding at same time.
 

shiphone

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@Shiphone

How will the missile numbers be managed? We are talking about Tier 2 and Tier 3 SAMs in the VLS along with AShM and LACM. Maybe even an ASM, if there are plans for carrying it. If we go by the Type 052C figures for HHQ-9A then we will see 48. That leaves 16 launchers for other missiles on D. Mix and match can be done with other ships, but the VLS numbers are not as high as what's on AB or Ticonderoga, so flexibility in missile choice is lower than what the Americans can manage. Meaning a "minimum" numbers in SAMs are expected for fleet defence. So, what is your opinion regarding this?

I'm afraid that at this stage 052D might have one kind of SAM(HHQ-9A) only, although the 2nd gen VLS system could contain other SAMs like HQ16B or something else...052D would play the key role as air defense vessel ,so she might have all cells filled with SAMs.

----------------------------------------
one correction: the ESSM style(4 missiles in 1 cell) short range SAM won't be HQ16 serial .it's something else.
----------------------------------------
next class large scale DDG (more than 10000 tons)will appear soon (in 3-4 years).and this class might be built with the 2nd batch of 052D in near future...the order of second batch of 052 has been placed.
 
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p2prada

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I'm afraid that at this stage 052D might have one kind of SAM(HHQ-9A) only, although the 2nd gen VLS system could contain other SAMs like HQ16B or something else...052D would play the key role as air defense vessel ,so she might have all cells filled with SAMs.
That seems to be the case considering it is an incremental upgrade to the 052C.

one correction: the ESSM style(4 missiles in 1 cell) short range SAM won't be HQ16 serial .it's something else.
I won't disagree. The HQ-16 is simply a modified Shtil-1. It is fine for now, but won't do for later.

next class large scale DDG (more than 10000 tons)will appear soon (in 3-4 years).and this class might be built with the 2nd batch of 052D in near future...the order of second batch of 052 has been placed.
Interesting. So, how many 052Ds on order as of today? Is this up from the 10 speculated earlier or the same thing?

It is a nice model! :thumb:
That is the real ship. :dude:
 

shiphone

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1.the building of 052Cs has ended ...the final number is 6 ( No.170,171, 150-153)
2.the first batch of 052Ds is less than 5,the last one of this batch would be launched in the first half of next year. the following order is unknown,we have to wait to see...in my opinion, 052D is indeed some kind of upgraded 052C.(equipped with some new sub systems like: 130mm main gun ,2nd gen VLS, improved 3XX radar. HQ10 which will appear on the next class DDGs)
3.the development of HQ16 family would go on...actually this family might have more potential than HQ9...some new model has appeared in news which aims at the SM6 level...
 

p2prada

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2.the first batch of 052Ds is less than 5,the last one of this batch would be launched in the first half of next year. the following order is unknown,we have to wait to see...in my opinion
Hmm, so that information on 10 ships was wrong, perhaps potential numbers.

Do you think this would follow 052C's history, 2 initial and 4 final? What I mean is the current orders are smaller than what will be placed later.

3.the development of HQ16 family would go on...actually this family might have more potential than HQ9...some new model has appeared in news which aims at the SM6 level...
Interesting, so it may slowly evolve like Barak 8 will.
 

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