Turkey cancels $3.4 billion missile deal with China

[J20!]

CPMEIC won the tender based on false claims of what it could deliver. The award was cancelled when it was shown they couldn't meet their claims.

The final winners are S-400 and a development contract with Eurosam.

Please provide a source for that...

That's not how multi-billion dollar defense tenders work son. All contenders are evaluated against the tender's requirements. If CPMIEC 's FD2000 didn't meet those requirements, it wouldn't have won the tender.

The S400 wasn't even a contender in that T-LORAMIDS tender. You're trying to conflate the cancelled tender with govt to govt deals made after the tender was cancelled.

 

[Armand2REP]

Please provide a source for that...

AFP -
The Chinese missile system was not only cheaper than US and European counterparts but Beijing had held out the promise of more technology transfers which would allow Turkey to operate the system independently and eventually replicate it.

But the promised technology transfers didn't go far enough to satisfy Ankara.

"They refused to give what we demanded," an unnamed official from the prime minister's office told the AFP news agency without elaborating on the demands. "One of the main reasons is that we want to launch our own national missile project."

So you were selected because you promised the most ToT and when it came time to pony up you couldn't deliver.

That's not how multi-billion dollar defense tenders work son. All contenders are evaluated against the tender's requirements. If CPMIEC 's FD2000 didn't meet those requirements, it wouldn't have won the tender.

It won the tender making claims it failed to deliver on and got it's a$$ kicked to the curb for defrauding the Turkish government. It is now French and Russian companies that can keep their promises who will be filling the contract.

 

[J20!]

AFP -
The Chinese missile system was not only cheaper than US and European counterparts but Beijing had held out the promise of more technology transfers which would allow Turkey to operate the system independently and eventually replicate it.

But the promised technology transfers didn't go far enough to satisfy Ankara.

"They refused to give what we demanded," an unnamed official from the prime minister's office told the AFP news agency without elaborating on the demands. "One of the main reasons is that we want to launch our own national missile project."

So you were selected because you promised the most ToT and when it came time to pony up you couldn't deliver.



It won the tender making claims it failed to deliver on and got it's a$$ kicked to the curb for defrauding the Turkish government. It is now French and Russian companies that can keep their promises who will be filling the contract.

Weak argument mate. So now you're claiming it wasn't the radar and missile system that didn't deliver, but the contractor's ToT promises?

"But the promised technology transfers didn't go far enough to satisfy Ankara."

Turkey wanted more ToT than it was promised. How is that CPMIEC being fraudulent?

Bullsh*t! The S400 has been bought under a completely different govt to govt contract that has nothing to do with the original T-LORAMIDS tender, which CPMIEC won. Or are you claiming otherwise?

Get over it. You just want to obfuscate and rationalize what doesn't conform with your "Chinese tech is inferior" mantra.

 

[cyclops]

CPMEIC won the tender based on false claims of what it could deliver. The award was cancelled when it was shown they couldn't meet their claims.

The final winners are S-400 and a development contract with Eurosam.

Don't the HQ9 and S-400 have like similar missile ranges and serve the same roles?

Why cancel the t-loramids citing it needed more indigenous content and then go off to buy S-400s?

If chinese systems were so superior, then wouldn't the Turks just buy the HQ9s off the shelf like they are doing the S-400s?

As they rightly say, "daal mein kuch kaala hai".

 

[J20!]

Don't the HQ9 and S-400 have like similar missile ranges and serve the same roles?

Why cancel the t-loramids citing it needed more indigenous content and then go off to buy S-400s?

If chinese systems were so superior, then wouldn't the Turks just buy the HQ9s off the shelf like they are doing the S-400s?

As they rightly say, "daal mein kuch kaala hai".

Uuuhh... No. The HQ9/FD2000 is based on and is analogous to the S300 air defense system, which was a contender in the T-LORADIMIS tender. S400 was not.

S400 is the successor to S300, with its longest range missile boasting much longer ranges than the S300. That is, S400 is a next gen air defense system compared to FD2000 and S300.

Don't put up a strawman argument. No one said FD2000 is "superior" to S400.

 

[Armand2REP]

Don't the HQ9 and S-400 have like similar missile ranges and serve the same roles?

Why cancel the t-loramids citing it needed more indigenous content and then go off to buy S-400s?

If chinese systems were so superior, then wouldn't the Turks just buy the HQ9s off the shelf like they are doing the S-400s?

As they rightly say, "daal mein kuch kaala hai".

The ONLY reason the Chinese option was selected was because China promised full transfer of technologies. They didn't do it and Turkey kicked them to the curb. Nothing about their system was superior.

 

[sthf]

Straw-man arguments as always. What are talking about?

You don't really understand what strawman argument is, now do you?

Incompatible to NATO systems as it is, the FD2000/HQ9 WON that tender over the S300, EuroSam's ASTER 30 and Ratheon's Patriot after evaluations by the Turkish armed forces.The tender was cancelled. Why would CPMIEC need to make excuses when it WON the tender?

Your pathetic excuse of "incompatibility" went down the crapper when S-400 became the preferred choice by Turks.

This is because the cheap copies of other's achievements that too from the 80s & 90s can only get you so far. Despite shamelessly copying & repainting Migs, Sukhois & S-300s for decades you still have to run towards the better minds who made them in the first place.

Come up with a better excuse. Your "incompatibility" BS doesn't work here.

Call me when any Indian Long Range Air defense system wins any tenders from a NATO member. Indian fanboys are always so bitter about any +ves in China.

Sell your snake oil somewhere else. Why drag India in an unrelated argument?
This is called a strawman argument.

 

[J20!]

You don't really understand what strawman argument is, now do you?



Your pathetic excuse of "incompatibility" went down the crapper when S-400 became the preferred choice by Turks.

This is because the cheap copies of other's achievements that too from the 80s & 90s can only get you so far. Despite shamelessly copying & repainting Migs, Sukhois & S-300s for decades you still have to run towards the better minds who made them in the first place.

Come up with a better excuse. Your "incompatibility" BS doesn't work here.



Sell your snake oil somewhere else. Why drag India in an unrelated argument?
This is called a strawman argument.

Straw-man - "an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument"

Calm down and read again.

When did I make any such "excuse"? Like I said in the post you just quoted, the very fact that FD2000 won this tender is proof that "incompatibility" was never an issue for the Turks. Just western business interests and news outlets who wanted the billion dollar tender for their own industries.

This whole thread is a kabaal of Indian fanboys celebrating an inferiority complex.

Canceled or not, just the fact that this system won the tender versus established defense contractors is a win for CPMIEC. The HQ9/FD2000 has been sold to other countries and will probably win other contracts. Calm down.

 

[Armand2REP]

Straw-man - "an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument"

That is a very good point... let's review. You said...

Weak argument mate. So now you're claiming it wasn't the radar and missile system that didn't deliver, but the contractor's ToT promises?

When my original statement was...

CPMEIC won the tender based on false claims of what it could deliver. The award was cancelled when it was shown they couldn't meet their claims.

I never mentioned anything about missiles or radar so who is the one with the "Strawman" argument"?

The HQ9/FD2000 has been sold to other countries and will probably win other contracts. Calm down.

Who exactly have you sold this to?

 

[cyclops]

Canceled or not, just the fact that this system won the tender versus established defense contractors is a win for CPMIEC. The HQ9/FD2000 has been sold to other countries and will probably win other contracts. Calm down.

You won because your system was the cheapest and apparently cpmiec was to give a certain amount of tot.

No one in their right mind would think HQ9s won coz they are better than the Patriot systems, a far more mature SAM that has actually been deployed and engaged targets.

The whole premise for the Turks was that they'll buy from the lowest common denominator to kick start their own long range SAM program, as they themselves are lacking severely in this category(the only proper SAM that they have is the Hisar)and have long since hoped to lessen their dependence on NATO.

And eventually realising that the chinese are not going to play ball; so as to fill the operational requirements they just bought the S-400s.

 

[J20!]

That is a very good point... let's review. You said...

When my original statement was...

I never mentioned anything about missiles or radar so who is the one with the "Strawman" argument"?

AFP -
The Chinese missile system was not only cheaper than US and European counterparts but Beijing had held out the promise of more technology transfers which would allow Turkey to operate the system independently and eventually replicate it.

But the promised technology transfers didn't go far enough to satisfy Ankara.

"They refused to give what we demanded," an unnamed official from the prime minister's office told the AFP news agency without elaborating on the demands. "One of the main reasons is that we want to launch our own national missile project."

"But the promised technology transfers didn't go far enough to satisfy Ankara."

The very same AFP article you quoted contradicts your claim. The Turks demanded more ToT than had been PROMISED and CPMIEC refused. Simple. Your diatribe about "false claims" is just your usual spin to avoid uncomfortable truths.

Who exactly have you sold this to?

Turkey's neighbor Turkmenistan operated the FD2000 and the medium range KS1A as showcased at their 26th Independence Day Parade in October 2017:

Aside from the HQ9's radar suite, Turkmenistan has also purchased the S-Band YLC-18 low-altitude 3D search/surveillance radar, the YLC-2V high altitude 3D acquisition radar and the DWL002 passive UHF/VHF radar system pictured below:

DWL002

YLC-2V

YLC-18 S Band Radar

And Uzbekistan operates the FD2000 as well after signing contracts for the air defense system and the Wing Look I UCAV in 2013:

 

[Armand2REP]

Turkey's neighbor Turkmenistan operated the FD2000 and the medium range KS1A as showcased at their 26th Independence Day Parade in October 2017.

I didn't ask who you gave it to, I asked who you sold it to. China gave Turkmenistan FD2000 to secure their support for the Central Asian Gas pipeline as part of the OBOR initiative.

 

[J20!]

I didn't ask who you gave it to, I asked who you sold it to. China gave Turkmenistan FD2000 to secure their support for the Central Asian Gas pipeline as part of the OBOR initiative.

Sure. They gave it to both Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan. Did they "give" them all the other air defense systems, radars, UAV's et al too?

The Stockholm International Peace Research Institute notes them as exports mate. IE sales. You can call them "gifts" all you want.

 

[Armand2REP]

Sure. They gave it to both Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan. Did they "give" them all the other air defense systems, radars, UAV's et al too?

The Stockholm International Peace Research Institute notes them as exports mate. IE sales. You can call them "gifts" all you want.

SIPRI doesn't list any price for it... you won't find that anywhere because it was a gift.

 

[J20!]

SIPRI doesn't list any price for it... you won't find that anywhere because it was a gift.

All of SIPRI's export statistics are listed in millions of dollars, are they not?

A significant portion of Turkmenistan's air defense equipment is Chinese, from QW-2 man-pads and surveillance radars to troposcatter communications systems... Where they all gifts? FD2000 is hardly the only Air Defense system exported to Turkmenistan. They operate the KS1A medium range SAM as well, is it also a "gift"...

I tire of these fruitless exchanges. Its obvious that no facts or sources or imagery will change your notion of Chinese equipment being below par so I'll just agree to disagree. Rationalize to your hearts content.

 

[Armand2REP]

All of SIPRI's export statistics are listed in millions of dollars, are they not?

A significant portion of Turkmenistan's air defense equipment is Chinese, from QW-2 man-pads and surveillance radars to troposcatter communications systems... Where they all gifts? FD2000 is hardly the only Air Defense system exported to Turkmenistan. They operate the KS1A medium range SAM as well, is it also a "gift"...

Here is what Turkmenistan got from China as of 2016,

China
R: Turkmenistan
(10) AR-1 ASM For CH-3 UCAV/UAV
(2) CH-3 UAV/UCAV
(10) CM-502KG ASM For WJ-600 UCAV/UAV
(1) FM-90 SAM system
(40) FM-90 SAM
(1) HQ-9 SAM system
(75) HQ-9 SAM
(1) KS-1A SAM system Probably KS-1C version
(50) KS-1A SAM Probably KS-1C version
(2) WJ-600 UAV/UCAV
(1) YLC-18 Air search radar
(1) YLC-2 Air search radar YLC-2V version

Total transfer was only $230 million. For all of that equipment I would definitely call that a "gift."