The scariest docu on the post-industrial American economy you will see

jamesvaikom

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Re: The scariest docu on the post-industrial American economy you will

:dude: That is because US economy is very efficient , while ours is not, thanks to our Ungle Nehru's license raj!

Understand this little explanation. A society with a population of 1000 will need 1 physicians, 1 nurse, 200 traders, 200 workers, 10 farmers ,10 soildiers- so on and so forth and will have a unemployed numbers at 40!(4%). Now a Population of 1000000000(India) will need 10000000 physicians , 1000000 nurses, 200000000 traders, 200000000 workers, 10000000 farmers and 10000000 soldiers and so on and so forth, with a corresponding un-employment of 4%, provided, same economic efficiency is maintained as in the case of 1000 people society. Now which of the two economies/society will be stronger?
In a democratic country Govt. can do only what majority people thinks good for them.

According to you 1000 people need 960 workers. But what about consumption of these 1000 people? Our trade deficit is increasing due to our increase in imports. If we spend more money for imported commodities like oil then we will be forced to reduce spending money for physicians, nurses etc. Population growth is creating only slaves. Foreigners come here for tourism. For them tourism is for fun and not necessity. But for us tourism is necessity because we need money. We go abroad for job. For us job is necessity. So in both cases foreigners are our masters. We import commodities like oil from abroad. As oil is necessity for us foreign oil companies don't have to bent towards us to sell their oil.
 

jamesvaikom

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Re: The scariest docu on the post-industrial American economy you will

:dude:? Seriously? If we maintain our economic growth above 8% our middle class will explode from present 50million to 500 millions in just twenty years. For that we, need free market, to maximise the efficiency of the population we have That is not possible under socialism. And that is what I was saying in the first place!

And Who told you we need 100% literacy for a fully efficient economy?

Also do you know why the Indian economy as noted by you is so inefficient?
Many poor people are living miserable life. Our economy will grow as long as there is some improvement in life of poor people. When poor people start using products used by us then upper class people will utilize demand supply gap to sell low quality products at higher rates. The existing middle class people will face more problems in future due to demand supply gap.

As I said earlier in a democratic country Govt. can do only what majority citizens thinks right for them.
 

jamesvaikom

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Re: The scariest docu on the post-industrial American economy you will

"This getting the basic needs" thingy is exactly what I or any other person in the field of economics will call as Socialism. Problem is, People living in the streets have much more interest in preserving their life than any of us, arm chair economists will ever have. So I think it is best to leave them alone and they will come up in their life.

And How exactly do you think govt can help poor without burdening the middle class?:rolleyes: Nothing in this world comes free. Some one is paying the fee for whatever some one else is getting for free!
Illiterate and poor people have more children than others. If you hate poor people then why do wish to see increase in their population? Govt. can't ignore them as they are vote bank. If Govt. ignore them then NGOs will help them and brainwash them. NGOs and terrorists helping poor people will cost Govt. more money and problems than if Govt. helped them.

Govt. and politicians needs to help them to get votes. If we control population growth then Govt. needs to spend only less money. If we don't control population growth then Govt. will be forced to spend more money.
 

Mad Indian

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Re: The scariest docu on the post-industrial American economy you will

Illiterate and poor people have more children than others. If you hate poor people then why do wish to see increase in their population? Govt. can't ignore them as they are vote bank. If Govt. ignore them then NGOs will help them and brainwash them. NGOs and terrorists helping poor people will cost Govt. more money and problems than if Govt. helped them.
Emotional Fallacy!- The socialists are very fond of this tactic, unfortunately, it wont work on me:becky:Appeal to emotion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Appeal to emotion or argumentum ad passiones is a logical fallacy which uses the manipulation of the recipient's emotions, rather than valid logic, to win an argument. The appeal to emotion fallacy uses emotions as the basis of an argument's position without factual evidence that logically supports the major ideas endorsed by the elicitor of the argument. Also, this kind of thinking may be evident in one who lets emotions and/or other subjective considerations influence one's reasoning process. This kind of appeal to emotion is a type of red herring and encompasses several logical fallacies, including:
I dont hate poor people and that is your own Straw man Argument!- Straw man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A straw man or straw person, also known in the UK as an Aunt Sally,[1][2] is a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[3] To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and to refute it, without ever having actually refuted the original position
And who said increased population caused our economic mess in the first place? Dude, think beyond what the leftist intellectuals teach you! If your statement is true, then poverty reduction would not have been as drastic as it is now,

Sigh, the best help govt can do to them is leave them and the businesses alone. They will find jobs on their own and will help themselves and in the long term, help the society. Also, Maoist violence is on the decrease in the FREE MARKET INDIA- for precisely the same reason! The poor are getting much better these days and it is an un-refutable fact! Also, most of the Maoist hit areas are under-developed. We dont see Maoists in Capitalistic states(Relatively) like Maharastra, Tamil Nadu, Gujarat now do we?:eyebrows:. What do you think is the reason for that?

Govt. and politicians needs to help them to get votes. If we control population growth then Govt. needs to spend only less money. If we don't control population growth then Govt. will be forced to spend more money.
Thats the fault right there! NOT free market. There you go! You answered your own question! Govt instead of believing in absolute free market is socialising the economy with subsidies and welfare. That is the fault which is dragging us down and the way to correct it is more free market and less govt interference and less welfare. That is precisely what I was advocating.
 

Mad Indian

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Re: The scariest docu on the post-industrial American economy you will

Many poor people are living miserable life. Our economy will grow as long as there is some improvement in life of poor people. When poor people start using products used by us then upper class people will utilize demand supply gap to sell low quality products at higher rates. The existing middle class people will face more problems in future due to demand supply gap.

As I said earlier in a democratic country Govt. can do only what majority citizens thinks right for them.
:dude:Then it is better for the economy as we will need to increase [production and if free market is there, some other upper middle class or a rich person will be there to increase the production for the item in question. Hence, Free market wins :D

And Your point has nothing whatsover to do with the discussion BTW And you did not counter any of my points. This is basically another Straw man
 

Mad Indian

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In a democratic country Govt. can do only what majority people thinks good for them.

According to you 1000 people need 960 workers. But what about consumption of these 1000 people? Our trade deficit is increasing due to our increase in imports. If we spend more money for imported commodities like oil then we will be forced to reduce spending money for physicians, nurses etc.
That is not how the economy works! Trade deficit has nothing to do with the prosperity of our nation and while at it, think about it, if our only import is oil, we will produce everything else, from consumer goods to services! Just like IT industry. We can always use that for our trade! Again, If free market is given its due recognition,then this problem wont be there at all.

Population growth is creating only slaves. Foreigners come here for tourism. For them tourism is for fun and not necessity. But for us tourism is necessity because we need money. We go abroad for job. For us job is necessity. So in both cases foreigners are our masters. We import commodities like oil from abroad. As oil is necessity for us foreign oil companies don't have to bent towards us to sell their oil.
More Assertions with no actual supporting argument or proof! and worse than that- all are straw mans

This one takes the cake though-
Population growth is creating only slaves
You think the third largest Population in the world is full of slaves compared to the sixth largest population :p?
 

HeinzGud

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Re: The scariest docu on the post-industrial American economy you will

And FYI, US imports its oil too ;)
US has it's own oil reserves to run USA for (as I have heard) 14 consective years. US imports oil to it's civil market and even that from Venezuala.
 
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HeinzGud

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Re: The scariest docu on the post-industrial American economy you will

I consider this point as an own goal against Socialist policies And I see that @HeinzGud liked this post, without knowing all of your points are actually against a socialist economy for India?:lol:
I am not a socialist nor capitalist but I like all the good aspects of both systems and I believe utilizing the goods of these both system will become far better socio-economic model.
 
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W.G.Ewald

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Re: The scariest docu on the post-industrial American economy you will

is there anything specific sir?
Article by Joe Quinlan about some China manufacturing moving to US.
 

W.G.Ewald

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Re: The scariest docu on the post-industrial American economy you will

I believe health care is the most expensive in the US of A.
Even if that is true, by law no one may be denied health care in a US hospital.
 

Mad Indian

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Re: The scariest docu on the post-industrial American economy you will

I am not a socialist nor capitalist but I like all the good aspects of both systems and I believe utilizing the goods of these both system will become far better socio-economic model.
There is no such thing as good from Socialist policies. Its a recipe for disaster. It always have been
US has it's own oil reserves to run USA for (as I have heard) 14 consective years. US imports oil to it's civil market and even that from Venezuala.
So???

For now it is importing is it not? IT has not stopped it from becoming the richest nation in the world!
 

Mad Indian

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Even if that is true, by law no one may be denied health care in a US hospital.
Sir thats because US is the richest country in the world, and obviously it will have a high cost for health care. But of course, that wont stop the socialist thugs to scream injustice, focusing only on the cost part :sad:
 

Mad Indian

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Re: The scariest docu on the post-industrial American economy you will

AND US has the best health care in the world, having the highest life expectancy, adjusted for murder and accidents:rolleyes:

The Myth of Americans' Poor Life Expectancy - Forbes

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It's one of the most oft-repeated justifications for socialized medicine: Americans spend more money than other developed countries on health care, but don't live as long. If we would just hop on the European health-care bandwagon, we'd live longer and healthier lives. The only problem is it's not true.
 

jamesvaikom

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Re: The scariest docu on the post-industrial American economy you will

@Mad Indian
States like Maharashtra, Tamil Nadu, Gujarat etc. are more developed than maoist hit states because fertility rate of those states are less than underdeveloped states. Can you name any state or district where standard of living is improving due to high fertility rate? Politicians won't win elections if they do what me or you want. They will win elections only if they do what majority people want.

Its true that few upper class people are getting benefits from population growth. But only upper class people who are close to political leaders will make profits. As population of poor people are higher than others, they will choose our leaders. If you check historic data of SENSEX and NIFTY you will find that many stocks which were in SENSEX and NIFTY in past are now in small cap or delisted.

Trade deficit is causing problems like rupee depreciation, inflation etc. Trade deficit is high because demand for our products is not as high as demand for products we import. Due to high population growth our imports are increasing. But our exports are not increasing at that pace. Our productivity is less because due to increase in population density its becoming more and more difficult to mine raw materials required by our factories.

Your point is capitalism is good and socialism is bad. My point is Govt. will do only what majority people thinks good for them. How can you hope that Govt. will do what you want when majority people want Govt. to do opposite?
 
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Mad Indian

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Re: The scariest docu on the post-industrial American economy you will

@Mad Indian
States like Maharashtra, Tamil Nadu, Gujarat etc. are more developed than maoist hit states because fertility rate of those states are less than underdeveloped states. Can you name any state or district where standard of living is improving due to high fertility rate? Politicians won't win elections if they do what me or you want. They will win elections only if they do what majority people want

Its true that few upper class people are getting benefits from population growth. But only upper class people who are close to political leaders will make profits. As population of poor people are higher than others, they will choose our leaders. If you check historic data of SENSEX and NIFTY you will find that many stocks which were in SENSEX and NIFTY in past are now in small cap or delisted.
:dude: Gujarat has TFR of 2.4(a very healthy one, unlike TN and Maha with a shitty 1.7 and 1.9 respectively) while the Indian TFR is 2.5. Hence Gujarat is not different from the Indian averages in regards to Population. But yeah whatever keep believing what you want! I am done explaining Population is not a problem!

Also, read this book recommended by SGU, if you really want to know what the problem is!

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/politics-society/45878-sgu-book-review-transforming-india-atanu-dey.html#post648111


And your point regarding the voting is one of the disadvantages of Democracy btw, and it is not the fault of the population or the free market by itself! See how the gullible middle class Americans are made to believe that the high taxes is somehow going to affect the Rich and not them :heh:

Trade deficit is causing problems like rupee depreciation, inflation etc. Trade deficit is high because demand for our products is not as high as demand for products we import. Due to high population growth our imports are increasing. But our exports are not increasing at that pace. Our productivity is less because due to increase in population density its becoming more and more difficult to mine raw materials required by our factories.
And that is not the reason for Inflation. You can repeat all that without understanding where the problem lies, but wont change the ground truth-which is the lack of proper industrial base in India- thanks to Ungle Nehru and his [email protected] economic policies, some of which are still being followed.

I will give a hint- other than oil, we can produce everything else locally! We can always use them for export in return for Oil.. Also, Inflation and trade deficit are not related like you think!

Your point is capitalism is good and socialism is bad. My point is Govt. will do only what majority people thinks good for them. How can you hope that Govt. will do what you want when majority people want Govt. to do opposite?
That is the reason why Democracy is a bad idea according to Plato! Benjamin Franklin's words on Democracy- "Our republic(USA) will work until the people figure out that they can vote themselves with money". It is true for India to. But America survived so far , because so far its people used to be strongly individualistic with a strong want for freedom. They never believed some one else should do their jobs for them! But the moment such an "envious" mentality sets in, it will collapse on itself or atleast stop being as strong as it is now!

And that is exactly what our aim should be, to rid the "Others will help me" psyche of the Indians. But our Jholachaps are not helping in any way for that and are infact encouraging it:tsk:
 
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HeinzGud

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Re: The scariest docu on the post-industrial American economy you will

For now it is importing is it not? IT has not stopped it from becoming the richest nation in the world!
Point out the reserves India has?
 

SPIEZ

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Re: The scariest docu on the post-industrial American economy you will

Even if that is true, by law no one may be denied health care in a US hospital.
So I caN GET MYSELF TREATED AND REFUSE TO PAY FOR IT?
 

W.G.Ewald

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Re: The scariest docu on the post-industrial American economy you will

So I caN GET MYSELF TREATED AND REFUSE TO PAY FOR IT?
Well, yes. You could demonstrate an inability to pay, I suppose. Many have done that.
 

SPIEZ

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Re: The scariest docu on the post-industrial American economy you will

Well, yes. You could demonstrate an inability to pay, I suppose. Many have done that.
Now I know why many American wimmin are well BBeautiful.

Anyways most of my opinion of the American health care comes from the movie "Sicko" and some experience
 
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