The Rafale Ruckus

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Hello there, that fart which I tracked 2-3 months ago seems to have escalated for now. Opening a new thread to unravel what's going on exactly, mods may feel free to merge it with main thread after the discussion is over.
 
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As I've neither been that active being busy at work nor I was much interested in studying this deal either, I'd like to know now after this row.
All I know that:
  1. Rafael has got it's elevated throughout the decade by many folds, Qatar & other buyers have bought it on the same cost. I don't know if price has exceptionally been elevated in case of India reflecting a fraudent for which social media is at outrage now.
  2. INC has been using Former French HoS Hollande's remark to attack the government that government introduced Reliance in the deal itself.
  3. Dassualt Aviation and government have dismissed saying that firm itself chose the partner.
  4. INC contradicts the above as reliance isn't having any past experience inside the aerospace sector.
  5. For probably no reason, Sambit Patra has further complicated it bringing Pakistan in between. Actually like they always do, Pakistani leaders have been critic of Modi and have been supporting Indian Left, are often reshared by INC supporters. Common people had to judge that, not BJP.
 

1971ftw

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I remember when the deal was made where analysts justified the deal , i wonder why they are all quite now.

Instead you now have half cooked journalists making conspiracy theories at every corner that make ppl cringe .
 
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The plane truth: on Rafale deal row
As things stand, only greater transparency will clear the air on the Rafale deal

The Rafale deal has been the subject of heated claims and counter-claims on two broad issues — that the contract to purchase 36 French multi-role fighter aircraft was grossly overvalued and that it was tainted by crony capitalism. Ammunition for the second charge came from an unexpected quarter with former French President François Hollande stating in an interview that it was India that suggested the Anil Ambani-owned Reliance Defence Ltd. as the offset partner for the deal. This squarely contradicts what the Modi government has been saying all along. While the Centre has insisted that the choice of offset partners is entirely that of the manufacturer, or of Dassault Aviation, Mr. Hollande’s remarks were widely perceived as bolstering the Congress allegation that the Rafale deal was structured to favour one industrialist. In the storm that ensued, the clarificatory statements issued — by the Centre, the French Foreign Ministry and Dassault — did little to clearly address what Mr. Hollande had said. The Defence Ministry’s statement merely reiterated that governments have no role in offset contracts, which are purely commercial. The French government said pretty much the same thing, and Dassault’s statement reaffirmed that it had chosen to tie up with Reliance Defence. But all this merely begs the question: did the Centre suggest a partnership with Reliance Defence as Mr. Hollande said? Also, if so, what form did it take? A firm nudge in that direction? A quiet whisper in someone’s ear? Who suggested to who? And when? It remains to be seen whether Mr. Hollande will now choose to complete his half-finished remarks to the French investigative website.

No questions have been raised about the capabilities of the Rafale jet, and the corruption allegations have persisted in the absence — unlike in the case of some other defence deals such as Bofors — of a financial trail. But a fair part of the reason for the concerns about the deal relate to process. If it was the temptation to make a headline-grabbing announcement that led Prime Minister Modi to unexpectedly announce the decision to purchase 36 Rafale aircraft, during his France visit in April 2015, it was a bad mistake. It is true that the deal was signed only in September 2016, after clearance from the Cabinet Committee on Security, but Mr. Modi’s 2015 declaration of a new deal clearly caught even many of his senior officials unawares, who were labouring under the belief that negotiations for the purchase of 126 Rafale aircraft, initiated by the UPA government, were still on. As things stand, greater transparency is the only way to clear the air. Private briefings to Opposition leaders and the disclosure of all information that doesn’t jeopardise national security or impact the aircrafts’ operational capability are good starting points. The decision to reject the formation of a Joint Parliamentary Committee to examine the deal should be reconsidered. If the political war over Rafale continues, it is defence modernisation that will become the real victim.
 

rockrocky

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Last edited:

Kay

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This is a battle of perception with elections in mind. Nothing can be proved or disproved - but the name of Ambani does not inspire confidence in Indian voters as far as honestly is concerned. Congress is using this to advantage.
 

raven

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Qatar - 24 Rafale = €5.2 billion around €217 million per Rafale
Egypt- 24 Rafale = €6.3 billion around €262 million per Rafale
INDIA - 36 Rafale = €7.8 billion around €217 million per Rafale + 50 per cent offset clause


source :- http://www.rediff.com/news/special/has-india-paid-more-for-the-rafales/20171201.htm

50 % Offset details

https://www.livefistdefence.com/201...of-frances-e4-billion-india-offsets-plan.html
The Congress has been claiming Eurofighter Thyphoon was cheaper . Let us check the price

Kuwait -28 Thyphoon = €8 billion around €285 million per Thyphoon
Quatar -24 Thyphoon = €6 billion around €250 million per Thyphoon
Saudi Arabia - 42 Thyphoon = €10 billion around €230 million per Thyphoon
 

scatterStorm

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This clusterfuck is caused by HAL and not UPA as Dassault told our then Gov that they cannot give manufacturing contract to HAL because of very late roll outs and HAL demanded more manpower and then there was Tejas dilemma that why did HAL took so long to deliver a jet that was designed in the 1980s.

Here's that take of a top journalist: Disclaimier this is in our native language folks.

 

tsunami

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I too had multiple fights on Rafale with many people. But I won them all. Maybe because no body have much idea about the deal. And we following this forum have much better idea about it.
 

raven

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well forward these edit if there is any mistakes



The figure Rahul Gandhi quoting Rs. 1600C for Rafale is not price of single aircraft. The deal India Signed is 7.8billion € /58000C Rs is for 36 aircraft. So RG simply divided 58000C by 36, got 217million €/1600 C Rupees and claimed it as the cost of one aircraft. But the 7.8 billion pound deal include the cost of infrastructure, spare parts, weapons, logistics, training, simulator and other accessories like HMD, Lightning pod etc.

Unit cost of one Rafale without all these is Rs 681C for single seater and 703C for dual seater. [Which is cheaper than RG claim of 720C for one aircraft by U P A] This puts total cost up to 3.3 billion pound for aircraft. Besides this, the IAF paid €1.7 billion for 'India-specific enhancements', €700 million for weaponry such as Meteor and SCALP missiles, €1.8 billion for spare parts and engines, and €350 million for 'performance-based logistics', to ensure that at least 75 per cent of the Rafale fleet remains operationally available. All this added up to another €4.5 billion, taking the cost of the contract up to €7.85 billion. Soon after the contract was signed, a senior political leader in the National Democratic Alliance held an off-the-record briefing in New Delhi for several journalists and revealed these prices. [ By Ajay Shukla http://www.rediff.com/news/special/has-india-paid-more-for-the-rafales/20171201.html ]

Now compare the similar deals signed by other countries and fully loaded cost of one aircraft which include weaponry and all other cost.


Qatar - 24 Rafale = €5.2 billion around €217 million per Rafale

Egypt- 24 Rafale = €6.3 billion around €262 million per Rafale

INDIA - 36 Rafale = €7.8 billion around €217 million per Rafale [50 per cent of this cost is

invested back in India as offsets]


The Congress has been claiming Eurofighter Thyphoon is cheaper. Let us check the price


Kuwait -28 Thyphoon = €8 billion around €285 million per Thyphoon

Quatar -24 Thyphoon = €6 billion around €250 million per Thyphoon

Saudi Arabia - 42 Thyphoon = €10 billion around €230 million per Thyphoon


Now if you check these facts you can understand that India has signed one of the cheapest deals.

Coming to offsets, there are around 72 offset partners in the deal and DRAL is just one of them.

DRAL is currently making Falcon business jets for export market at Nagpur facility which India is not a customer so Rahul Gandhi need not worry about inexperience of DRAL. Anil Ambani also made it clear that they have not made any part of Rafale in current deal and will be making parts of Rafale if there is a follow on orders.

Another claim is that HAL can make Rafale at much lower price which is absolutely bogus. The deal involving HAL for complete production of aircraft in India would have TOT fees as well as licence fee for each component of aircraft which is to be paid to OEMs. This will make the price of the aircraft much higher and A K Antony in 2014 claimed he dont have any money to sign the deal. For eg., if you look at the Su 30, Russia is offering the aircraft at around Rs 300C, but India is buying it from HAL at around Rs 440C. Similarly for single engine Tejas mk1A, HAL is asking around Rs463C per aircraft, and here RG's claim of buying two engine Rafale which is having more than two times the pay load than Tejas after all TOT and licence fee for just Rs 540C [or 504C or 720C which even he is not sure. Remember NDA negotiated price is around 680C for one aircraft] is pure stupidity. Also remember HAL denied to provide quality assurance to the Rafales manufactured by them which is one of the main reason for fall out of the dea
 

tsunami

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The price of 36 fighters is € 3.4 billion.

Which is roughly € 94 Million per plane.

€ 1.7 Billion
is the cost of India specific changes in the plane.

€ 710 Million
is cost of weapons.

Rest spare parts, maintenance, training and simulator, ensuring 75% availability for the fighter etc. costs are part of it.

Now as per the exchange rates at that time per plane cost was around 675 crores.

Now ask any Piddi that how RaGa have derived the price to 520-700 crores. French company will obviously deal in so what is the the price in million € , what is the exchange rate this has been calculated and and what is the document they have to support these claims.
 

indus

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BJP tries to drag Vadra and Gandhi family by invoking OIS, arms dealer Sanjay Bhandari.
 

Prashant12

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tsunami

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BJP tries to drag Vadra and Gandhi family by invoking OIS, arms dealer Sanjay Bhandari.
This is the master stroke by BJP. As congress was doing nothing but repeating 1 lie 100 times to make it sound true. Now in next few days BJP will do many press conferences and will show stupid evidences to prove hat Vadra was involved in the lobbying in this deal. And Dassault not paying bribe to congress through Vadra was the only reason MMRC deal was cancelled by Congress.

Once the doubt is there in public about this. Every single worker of BJP will do the job at ground level to make it strong. Rest of the Job will be done by Modi in every single rally during election campaign.
 

tsunami

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See this and expect this every now and then by BJP.
 

12arya

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https://www.opindia.com/2018/09/con...om-2012-pilatus-aircraft-deal-since-2016-cbi/

Is Rafale cacophony meant to deflect attention from investigation of Congress’ Pilatus aircraft deal?


Over the past few months, the Rafale deal has transformed into a political slugfest. The wise men and women of the Congress party and their well-wishers in the media appear to have concluded that portraying the deal as a scam is essential to establish Congress President Rahul Gandhi as a serious politician.

Recently, former President of France, Hollande, added fuel to the fire by claiming that India proposed that Dassault partner with Reliance for the project. However, he later backtracked from his earlier statement and admitted that he was not aware of any such pressure on Dassault. Rahul Gandhi, however, was quick to latch on to Hollande’s allegations and tweeted that Prime Minister Modi himself had intervened to deliver billions of dollars to the Ambanis. There was only one problem with this fantastic story concocted by Rahul Gandhi. There doesn’t appear to be much truth to it. OpIndia.com has published a comprehensive fact-check of the allegations on the Reliance-Rafale controversy.

As it turns out, even during the UPA era pact, Dassault had did not want to tie up with HAL and the deal was in limbo because of this point of contention.

If one was under the impression that the allegations couldn’t get more ridiculous, then they are obviously unaware of antics of the Congress party. The Goa unit of the party has now claimed that Narendra Modi and Amit Shah were not asking for the resignation of the ailing Goa Chief Minister Manohar Parikkar because “he has crucial information on the Rafale fighter jet deal which he could use to ‘blackmail’ them”.

During the entire charade, the Congress party has scored multiple self-goals. At one point, they ‘gheraoed‘ the Prime Minister’s residence on a day when Narendra Modi wasn’t even in the country.

The Congress is perhaps convinced of a scam in the Rafale deal because its own track record of defence deals is rather dubious, so to speak. The Bofors scam, the controversy surrounding Augusta Westland is quite well known.

One such deal that is not very well known is the Pilatus trainer aircraft deal in 2012. In 2016, reports had emerged which claimed that the government had ordered a probe into the Pilatus deal and in July 2017 and it was reported that the CBI had begun an investigation into the Rs. 2900 crore Pilatus deal. The deal allegedly involved an absconding defence dealer, Sanjay Bhandari, and a preliminary enquiry was registered following the examination of an Income-Tax investigation report on Bhandari.

It is pertinent to mention here that Bhandari, purportedly has links to Robert Vadra, husband of Priyanka Gandhi, and Dassault refused to partner with Offsets India Solutions (OIS), whose promoter is Bhandari after they discovered his proximity to Vadra. Confidential documents were recovered by the Income Tax Department during raids on his offices which were part of an investigation in a tax evasion case against Bhandari and his company. Email exchanges between Vadra and Bhandari were also discovered. In January this year, Sanjay Bhandari was declared a ‘proclaimed offender’ by a Delhi court under the Official Secrets Act, due to failure to attend before the court. The defence ministry has since suspended all dealings with OIS.

The Pilatus deal has shrouded in controversy from the time it materialized. Korea Aerospace Industries, its closest rival, had strongly protested the deal claiming that Pilatus had submitted an incomplete bid and demanded its disqualification. South Korea’s defence minister personally contacted A.K. Antony, his Indian counterpart, requesting a “high-level review”. However, these objections were overruled and Pilatus was awarded the contract.

In 2015, after Finance wing of the Ministry of Defense flagged the Pilatus deal, the Indian Express reported, “…nine components, now part of an IAF proposal to pay Pilatus under the maintenance head were not calculated during the request for proposal (RFP) stage before declaring it the lowest bidder.” This is the very same issue the Koreans had raised in 2011. It should be noted that Bhandari is under CBI investigation for alleged malpractices in the selection of the Swiss aircraft, Pilatus PC-7″.

One wonders if the high decibel attack on the NDA government’s Rafale deal by the Congress Party is motivated by a need to deflect attention from the skeletons in their own closet. An investigation that was initiated in 2016. It could very well be that the allegations against Rafale have surfaced as a consequence of the NDA government ordering probes into shady arms deals made by the UPA government. Rahul Gandhi may be a ‘clown prince‘ after all but the strategy appears to be succeeding in serving a greater purpose
 

indus

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This is the master stroke by BJP. As congress was doing nothing but repeating 1 lie 100 times to make it sound true. Now in next few days BJP will do many press conferences and will show stupid evidences to prove hat Vadra was involved in the lobbying in this deal. And Dassault not paying bribe to congress through Vadra was the only reason MMRC deal was cancelled by Congress.

Once the doubt is there in public about this. Every single worker of BJP will do the job at ground level to make it strong. Rest of the Job will be done by Modi in every single rally during election campaign.
It could have become a masterstroke if this was done preemptively before RaGa started throwing muck in the air. Then Congress s allegations would be percieved as a delfection. Now the narrative will be cast that bjp is giving counter allegations to deflect the Rafale scam allegations.
 
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hit&run

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I too had multiple fights on Rafale with many people. But I won them all. Maybe because no body have much idea about the deal. And we following this forum have much better idea about it.
Anyone who has followed MMRCA contracts knows how this asshole Pappu is making a fool of himself.
 

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