The phylogenetic and geographic structure of Y-chromosome haplogroup R1a

[asaffronladoftherisingsun]

I tried my best to find the peacock seal but failed. I would like to see one if you find one. That would be a big evidence on their Indian origin rather than a split from the Andronovo-BMAC.

This..

"'
This fits in perfectly with the fact that peacocks and the peacock motif also appear prominently in West Asia along with the Mitanni. This was brilliantly presented in a paper viz Burchard Brentjes 1981. As Brentjes confirmed out: "there is not a single cultural element of Central Asian, Eastern european or caucasian origin in the archaeological culture of the Mittanian area [….] But there is one element novel to Iraq in Mittanian culture and art, which is later on observed in Iranian culture until the islamisation of Iran: the Peacock, one of the two elements of the 'Senmurv', the lion-peacock of the Sassanian art. The first clear pictures showing peacocks in religious context in Mesopotamia are the nuzi cylinder seals of Mittanian time [7. Nos 92, 662, 676, 856, 857 a.o.]. There are two types of peacocks: the griffin with a peacock head and the peacock dancer, masked and standing beside the holy tree of life. The veneration of the Peacock could not have been brought by the Mittanians from Central Asia or South-Eastern europe; they must have taken it from the East, as peacocks are the type-bird of India and Peacock dancers are still to be seen all over India. The earliest examples are known from the Harappan SINDHU SARASVATI culture, from Mohenjo-daro and Harappa: two birds sitting on either side of the first tree of life are painted on ceramics. [….] The religious role of the Peacock in BHARAT and the Indian-influenced Buddhist art in China and Japan need not be questioned" (BRENTJES 1981:145-46).
"'

 

[Indo-Aryan]

Iranian HG (sample Hotu) is the precursor population to Iran Neolithic Farmers. CHG is a sister branch, but yet significantly different, from IranN. CHG has higher proto-WHG ancestry & probably lower basal Eurasian ancestry as compared to Iran N. Also it lacks the minor AASI/Onge/ENA like signal detected in IranN.

If we have to draw a chart would it look like this:

IranN -------------------CHG
|
|
|
Iran HG
|
|
Iran Farmer (different from Indian IVC farmer)

 

[Indo-Aryan]

Has any professional geneticist tried modelling Rors and Jats on Tarim related people?

 

[Indo-Aryan]

Many of my cousins look like him.
No blue eyes though

We call such looks kachur

These days I wish I was a geneticist. I wouldn't have wasted time taking and analysing their samples.

 

[Ikariyasan]

If we have to draw a chart would it look like this:

IranN -------------------CHG
|
|
|
Iran HG
|
|
Iran Farmer (different from Indian IVC farmer)

Iran HG & CHG would separate first, then Iran HG would give rise to IranN I suppose.
These population occupied a geographical range and possibly were at contact with different populations at the border. Thus it can be expected that they show a cline (gradient?) of varying ancestry over N to S, E to W.
IranN donor which contributed to the IVC & the ones currently known (Ganj Dareh N , Wezmeh Cave) are very closely related and broadly are the part of the same population. That's why they work so well while modeling us with them on G25.

 

[Ikariyasan]

Has any professional geneticist tried modelling Rors and Jats on Tarim related people?

You can try but at best they will show affinities based on shared ANE ancestry, which in our case comes from- IranN & Steppe MLBA & possibly even an earlier migration independent of the former 2.
Jatts/Rors are especially steppe mlba rich (& proportionally lesser BMAC as compared to populations like Khatri/Arora). So they need a source with the characteristic ratios- (EHG+CHG+ANF+WHG) AKA steppe MLBA.

 

[Ikariyasan]

Has any professional geneticist tried modelling Rors and Jats on Tarim related people?

DISCLAIMER: I suck at modeling anything other than myself & related groups. This model is very generic. I am even not sure if the tarimEMBA available on the site is same as the Tarim mummies.

sample: Haryana Jatt:Average
distance: 5.5273
Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2: 50
Gonur1_BA: 37.5
Tarim_EMBA1: 11
Chokhopani_2700BP: 1.5

sample: Haryana Jatt:Average
distance: 1.9936
Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2: 63
Srubnaya_Alakul_MLBA: 30
Gonur1_BA: 5
Chokhopani_2700BP: 2

Note: lower the 'distance' better the model. For modern populations one should aim for the fits below 2.5 at least.
Note2: NW Indian 'Biradari' castes don't need much additional AASI other than the ones present in IVCp. Thus current ancient are almost sufficient to model them, though the things will definitely get clearer once the AASI/SA HG genomes are published.

 

[Indo-Aryan]

DISCLAIMER: I suck at modeling anything other than myself & related groups. This model is very generic. I am even not sure if the tarimEMBA available on the site is same as the Tarim mummies.

sample: Haryana Jatt:Average
distance: 5.5273
Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2: 50
Gonur1_BA: 37.5
Tarim_EMBA1: 11
Chokhopani_2700BP: 1.5

sample: Haryana Jatt:Average
distance: 1.9936
Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2: 63
Srubnaya_Alakul_MLBA: 30
Gonur1_BA: 5
Chokhopani_2700BP: 2

Note: lower the 'distance' better the model. For modern populations one should aim for the fits below 2.5 at least.
Note2: NW Indian 'Biradari' castes don't need much additional AASI other than the ones present in IVCp. Thus current ancient are almost sufficient to model them, though the things will definitely get clearer once the AASI/SA HG genomes are published.

I don't understand why are we hesitant when it comes to Scythian steppe contribution to Indian population.

Scythian have been found to be overwhelmingly West Eurasian that too with Haplogroups R, R1, R1a1.

What little eastern component they had was among the eastern Scythians. North, West and Southern Scythians had little to no admixture from East Asia.

Southern Scythians also carried up to 10% Iran Neolithic.

Scythian were also attested in various Indian texts but zilch before them.

How good are Scythians as a model for Indian population and which groups are closest to them in India.

 

[Indo-Aryan]

One Rakhigari sample was from 2500bce if I am not wrong. A million events could have happened in next 500 years before the hypothesized arrival of Steppe MLBA. Again how sure are we that the steppe MLBA that did arrive were pure and not a hybrid of Harappan + Steppe MLBA?

Could very well be the case of outlier Harappans with steppe MLBA returning home after BMAC settlements were abandoned around 1600bce-1500bce.



Instead we get this nonsense that Steppe MLBA pure white people came invaded/displaced natives and composed Rig Veda with literally no memory of Eastern European and BMAC travels.

Rig Veda doesn't look like the composition of Steppe MLBA pure.
Language we don't know.
Andronovo or BMAC people could very well be speaking an entirely different language either extinct or some unrelated language.

How true are the reports that pre IVC IranN (89%) + ANE (11%) have been detected around Afghanistan I guess.

What Likely hood of this IranN+ ANE existing on a large scale only to be replaced later by IranN + AASI.

Tarim mummy related pre Ice age ANE people could have possibly infiltrated South into the Indus much before IVC was developed.

IVC was cosmopolitan, I wouldn't be surprised if we end up finding people with Mesopotamian like ancestries also.

Also not to forget the countless slaughters of Indian population. Many such interesting lineages might have perished under the sands of time.

 

[Indo-Aryan]

Iran HG & CHG would separate first, then Iran HG would give rise to IranN I suppose.
These population occupied a geographical range and possibly were at contact with different populations at the border. Thus it can be expected that they show a cline (gradient?) of varying ancestry over N to S, E to W.
IranN donor which contributed to the IVC & the ones currently known (Ganj Dareh N , Wezmeh Cave) are very closely related and broadly are the part of the same population. That's why they work so well while modeling us with them on G25.

Hun!

So Iran HG and CHG are older

 

[Indo-Aryan]

Haven't read Mahabharat yet
Planning to buy Bibek Debroy translations

But here is what mahabharat has to say about Sakas, possibly much before they established their empire in India.

The region called Sakadwipa

Mahabharata mentions about a whole region inhabited by Sakas called Sakadwipa to the north-west of ancient India. There in that region are, many delightful provinces where Siva is worshipped, and thither repair the Siddhas, the Charanas, and the Devas. The people there are virtuous, and all the four orders are devoted to their respective occupations. No instance of theft can be seen there. Freed from decrepitude and death and gifted with long life, the people there grow like rivers during the season of rains. The rivers there are full of sacred water, and Ganga herself, distributed as she hath been into various currents, is there as Sukumari, and Kumari, and Seta, and Keveraka, and Mahanadi and the river Manijala, and Chakshus (Oxus river), and the river Vardhanika, these and many other rivers by thousands and hundreds, all full of sacred water, are there. It is impossible to recount the names and lengths of rivers. As heard by all men there, in that region of Saka, are four sacred provinces. They are the Mrigas, the Masakas, the Manasas, and the Mandagas.

The Mrigas for the most part are Brahmanas devoted to the occupations of their order. Amongst the Masakas are virtuous Kshatriyas. The Manasas live by following the duties of the Vaishya order. Having every wish of theirs gratified, they are also brave and firmly devoted to virtue and profit. The Mandagas are all brave Shudras of virtuous behaviour.

In these provinces, there is no king, no punishment, no person that deserves to be punished. Conversant with the dictates of duty they are all engaged in the practice of their respective duties and protect one another. This much is capable of being said of the region called Saka.

The region called Sakadwipa is mentioned again at (12:14) as a region to the east of the great Karnali mountains.

 

[Indo-Aryan]

Here is one more thing:

Indian texts are undateable. Scholars say Mahabharata's oldest layers can't be older than 400bce. While the events mentioned can't be older than 1000bce.

These are guesses of scholars

 

[Freakk]

Iran HG & CHG would separate first, then Iran HG would give rise to IranN I suppose.
These population occupied a geographical range and possibly were at contact with different populations at the border. Thus it can be expected that they show a cline (gradient?) of varying ancestry over N to S, E to W.
IranN donor which contributed to the IVC & the ones currently known (Ganj Dareh N , Wezmeh Cave) are very closely related and broadly are the part of the same population. That's why they work so well while modeling us with them on G25.

G25 is bullshit.
2022 study shows that chg is just iraN, with extra dzudzuana/whg.

This refutes fhe differentiation people love to make between iranN and chg.
IranHG->CHG
↓
IranN

 

[Suryavanshi]

Would be posting a few theories here not strictly related to this thread but it will give a few perspective

 

[Suryavanshi]

Apparently kanikar are the oldest tribals in india.

Blue line because A clear link between Kanikar and Denesovian has not been established so they are most likely not related