The Future of Indian Orbital Rockets

Abdus Salem killed

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It will be jointly developed by ISRO & our Pvt companies....earlier LVs were developed solely by ISRO while private players acted as suppliers....now pvt companies will be part of design & development activities.. this new LV will replace all 3 , PSLV,GSLV & GSLV-MK3
It's still not enough for competition with China
 

TopWatcher

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ISRO really very slow. By 2030 planning to first launch of NGLV.

Don't know how china have 30t lift capability in just few years.
 

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ISRO really very slow. By 2030 planning to first launch of NGLV.
No, 2030 is rather an optimistic timeline for a new launch vehicle, that even a concept like NGLV. It will be a miracle if they do it in 2030.
Don't know how china have 30t lift capability in just few years.
Few years lol? It took China 21 years to move from medium lift of Long March 2E class rockets to heavy lift Long March 5B today.

They have been having LVM3 class rockets since 90s.
 

TopWatcher

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No, 2030 is rather an optimistic timeline for a new launch vehicle, that even a concept like NGLV. It will be a miracle if they do it in 2030.

Few years lol? It took China 21 years to move from medium lift of Long March 2E class rockets to heavy lift Long March 5B today.

They have been having LVM3 class rockets since 90s.
Why ISRO not aggressive in building heavy rockets?
 

Vamsi

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Why ISRO not aggressive in building heavy rockets?
lack of forward thinking & money...when LPSC is constructing the Vikas engine test stand, Dr.Nambi Narayanan proposed to make it slightly larger so that they can test a 4 engined core similar to Ariane 4 core or LM-2F core, then ISRO chairman Satish Dhawan rejected that idea,later he accepted his mistake though, but had that test stand been built, then we would have had Longmarch-2F class LV in early 2000s itself.....Nambi Narayanan also proposed a Cryo Engine (around 600KN thrust I think,please correct me if I'm wrong) in 1970s itself I think (please correct me wrt dates if I'm wrong), but that proposal too was torpedoed due to lack of money...
 

TopWatcher

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lack of forward thinking & money...when LPSC is constructing the Vikas engine test stand, Dr.Nambi Narayanan proposed to make it slightly larger so that they can test a 4 engined core similar to Ariane 4 core or LM-2F core, then ISRO chairman Satish Dhawan rejected that idea,later he accepted his mistake though, but had that test stand been built, then we would have had Longmarch-2F class LV in early 2000s itself.....Nambi Narayanan also proposed a Cryo Engine (around 600KN thrust I think,please correct me if I'm wrong) in 1970s itself I think (please correct me wrt dates if I'm wrong), but that proposal too was torpedoed due to lack of money...
If govt provide fund today then will ISRO make heavy rocket.

But someone told me on this platform that merely increasing budget will not going to help!
 

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Why ISRO not aggressive in building heavy rockets?
Because it is yet to test and validate a rocket before aggressively producing a heavy rocket.

ISRO we know about today came to existence in 90s. Earlier was just an underfunded one like Iranian Space Agency when China and Japan were launching MSLVs of size of GSLV Mk III in 80s itself. ISRO has leaped forward only way faster.
lack of forward thinking & money...when LPSC is constructing the Vikas engine test stand, Dr.Nambi Narayanan proposed to make it slightly larger so that they can test a 4 engined core similar to Ariane 4 core or LM-2F core, then ISRO chairman Satish Dhawan rejected that idea,later he accepted his mistake though, but had that test stand been built, then we would have had Longmarch-2F class LV in early 2000s itself.....Nambi Narayanan also proposed a Cryo Engine (around 600KN thrust I think,please correct me if I'm wrong) in 1970s itself I think (please correct me wrt dates if I'm wrong), but that proposal too was torpedoed due to lack of money...
India failed to produce successful GSLV and LVM3 even then for more than a decade after budget was released.
Lack of money, lack of need and lack of experience to develop required technology.
Making a heavy lifter in 1970s for India was just a dream like Valiant ICBM, both of which were impossible things for India (modern India can do it though). China made plans for sending humans in space in 1970 itself and landing them on moon. Ended up with an orbital flight much later in 2003.

If giving ideas was enough, both North Korea and Iran have given dated plans for building SHLVs, space stations and manned moon missions. We know where they have reached today and where they are heading. This is not just about money always.

You also have to have the need of system. India doesn't need NGLV today, India won't need SHLV minimum for 10 years.

What will be the use of NGLV? Launching cargo and modular space station. Leave alone that, we are yet to even experiment rendezvous docking. We have not yet developed any sample return mission or a mars rover or a Voyager like mission or a large space shuttle or a heavy mission around Jupiter or Saturn which would need a 20-25 tonnes class vehicle. Or how many communication satellite launch orders we have to use it? NGLV being in 2030-35 is perfectly in timeline with these missions. This is a cargo rocket specially being developed to deploy India's modular space station. So, there is no use of NGLV in 2022 itself.

Similarly, what would an SHLV do? Launch a single piece space station? Or land humans on moon? And kind of docking and berthing capabilities US developed for spacecraft Gemini are no less than alien tech for any other country in world.

Even thereafter, US discontinued apollo program and eventually lost industrial capabilities and experienced minds to Saturn V rocket. They just have technology in documents and trying to launch SLS for 10 years. Russia has lost capabilities of Energia rocket after testing and dumping it.

So contrary to simplistic thinking @TopWatcher believes, things just aren't made for sake of making them.
and for you, it's not always about money.

PS
US and USSR were always hyperpower countries of another league with mammoth economies and extensive technological experience from WW2. That's why they could do things quickly (they even had a launch frequency of 300+).
No country will ever enjoy that kind of superiority. Even they both will never enjoy that kind of superiority again.
If govt provide fund today then will ISRO make heavy rocket.

But someone told me on this platform that merely increasing budget will not going to help!
Your naivity is too cute. I then had written a load to explain why budget not makes any difference and I have written a lengthy post again. Budget doesn't make everything. ISRO even has to return budget to government many times when they fail to spend it.

ISRO writes a demand of budget from government every year and government funds ISRO according to it (as well as their pockets). It's needless to tell you that there is not much difference in those. If ISRO demands 13k crores, they get 12-12.5k cr mostly.
 

Swesh

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Because it is yet to test and validate a rocket before aggressively producing a heavy rocket.

ISRO we know about today came to existence in 90s. Earlier was just an underfunded one like Iranian Space Agency when China and Japan were launching MSLVs of size of GSLV Mk III in 80s itself. ISRO has leaped forward only way faster.

India failed to produce successful GSLV and LVM3 even then for more than a decade after budget was released.
Lack of money, lack of need and lack of experience to develop required technology.
Making a heavy lifter in 1970s for India was just a dream like Valiant ICBM, both of which were impossible things for India (modern India can do it though). China made plans for sending humans in space in 1970 itself and landing them on moon. Ended up with an orbital flight much later in 2003.

If giving ideas was enough, both North Korea and Iran have given dated plans for building SHLVs, space stations and manned moon missions. We know where they have reached today and where they are heading. This is not just about money always.

You also have to have the need of system. India doesn't need NGLV today, India won't need SHLV minimum for 10 years.

What will be the use of NGLV? Launching cargo and modular space station. Leave alone that, we are yet to even experiment rendezvous docking. We have not yet developed any sample return mission or a mars rover or a Voyager like mission or a large space shuttle or a heavy mission around Jupiter or Saturn which would need a 20-25 tonnes class vehicle. Or how many communication satellite launch orders we have to use it? NGLV being in 2030-35 is perfectly in timeline with these missions. This is a cargo rocket specially being developed to deploy India's modular space station. So, there is no use of NGLV in 2022 itself.

Similarly, what would an SHLV do? Launch a single piece space station? Or land humans on moon? And kind of docking and berthing capabilities US developed for spacecraft Gemini are no less than alien tech for any other country in world.

Even thereafter, US discontinued apollo program and eventually lost industrial capabilities and experienced minds to Saturn V rocket. They just have technology in documents and trying to launch SLS for 10 years. Russia has lost capabilities of Energia rocket after testing and dumping it.

So contrary to simplistic thinking @TopWatcher believes, things just aren't made for sake of making them.
and for you, it's not always about money.

PS
US and USSR were always hyperpower countries of another league with mammoth economies and extensive technological experience from WW2. That's why they could do things quickly (they even had a launch frequency of 300+).
No country will ever enjoy that kind of superiority. Even they both will never enjoy that kind of superiority again.

Your naivity is too cute. I then had written a load to explain why budget not makes any difference and I have written a lengthy post again. Budget doesn't make everything. ISRO even has to return budget to government many times when they fail to spend it.

ISRO writes a demand of budget from government every year and government funds ISRO according to it (as well as their pockets). It's needless to tell you that there is not much difference in those.
Isro do have structural problems that comes from being Indian psu not every brightest of bright can apply there
 

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Isro do have structural problems that comes from being Indian psu not every brightest of bright can apply there
That's the case with not ISRO alone. And that's definitely has nothing to do with NGLV coming in 2030 and not 2025.
 

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Structural problems that arises from being Indian psu
That's too simplistic and incorrect scapegoating for analysis of topic of debate.

Structural problems and loopholes, which sometimes miss capable people are skipped, exist everywhere in world. ISRO hasn't reached at levels of NASA or RFSA just or even significantly due to that issue is gross misunderstanding of issue.

Because regardless of a bright or dull mind, the system of operations, budget, plans and funding and scientific limitations are going to remain same.

Even a miraculous person will solve one or two problems. Not even a miraculous leader can magically make ISRO lead in space or make India a global power, contrary to what members on this forum tend to believe.

I find objective analysis of topic more helpful than "people bad, attitude of Indians, government bad" emotional judgements which only helped me in school speeches.
 

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Wikipedia for overview of the new rocket for noobs.

SLS are biggest rockets to be made in human history besides Saturn V.
NASA's SLS vs India's space capabilities
  • It's five-segment solid rocket boosters produce 3 times more thrust than India's current S-200 solid rocket boosters. We will either have to build bigger SRBs or put more SRBs on a single rocket.
  • It's RS-25D/E main engine is more than twice in thrust over our current Vikas-X engine but similar to our under development SCE-200 engine which will come in service no earlier than 2026. We then can cluster engines just like NASA for launch but we lack a facility yet to test 4 engines together for such a rocket stage which will produce 7 to 8 MN thrust at once.
  • It's second and upper stage RL10 C-3 cryogenic engines are although are just 50% against thrust of India's current CE-20 cryogenic engine. So we might not have to cluster as many engines on upper stage or even might achieve a higher payload capacity to TLI and TMI.
So, if funded now, India can produce a similar SHLV sometime in mid-2030s. Though, there is no point to have an SHLV in absence of an indigenous human spaceflight capability and space station. China might churn out a similar launcher in second half of this decade though.
 

skywatcher

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NASA's SLS vs India's space capabilities
  • It's five-segment solid rocket boosters produce 3 times more thrust than India's current S-200 solid rocket boosters. We will either have to build bigger SRBs or put more SRBs on a single rocket.
  • It's RS-25D/E main engine is more than twice in thrust over our current Vikas-X engine but similar to our under development SCE-200 engine which will come in service no earlier than 2026. We then can cluster engines just like NASA for launch but we lack a facility yet to test 4 engines together for such a rocket stage which will produce 7 to 8 MN thrust at once.
  • It's second and upper stage RL10 C-3 cryogenic engines are although are just 50% against thrust of India's current CE-20 cryogenic engine. So we might not have to cluster as many engines on upper stage or even might achieve a higher payload capacity to TLI and TMI.
So, if funded now, India can produce a similar SHLV sometime in mid-2030s. Though, there is no point to have an SHLV in absence of an indigenous human spaceflight capability and space station. China might churn out a similar launcher in second half of this decade though.
The old "LM9 similar to SLS " plan will definitely be discarded. Suppose you have a super heavy launcher which is not reusable in the 30s and cost billions $ per launch . That'd be a nightmare.
 

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The old "LM9 similar to SLS " plan will definitely be discarded. Suppose you have a super heavy launcher which is not reusable in the 30s and cost billions $ per launch . That'd be a nightmare.
Isn't expendable LM9 already discarded and a reusable version is under development now?
You still will need a 40-50 tonnes TLI capacity (likely expendable) vehicle for manned mission to moon.
 

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