The Atheism/Agnosticism Thread

Do you think God exists?


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chetan chopade

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show me a GOD or any live miracle which cannot be explained by science...or STFU!!!! period.
 

Bleh

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show me a GOD or any live miracle which cannot be explained by science...or STFU!!!! period.
Actually.. even if someone provides irrefutable evidence of presence of a divine, you would suddenly start giving a shit?
Who cares, whether God exists or not!

It'd be just another "meh" moment for me.
:dude:
 

chetan chopade

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Actually.. even if someone provides irrefutable evidence of presence of a divine, you would suddenly start giving a shit?
Who cares, whether God exists or not!

It'd be just another "meh" moment for me.
:dude:
meh or bleh????????????????:bounce:
 

Advaidhya Tiwari

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It is quite unbelievable that you are trying to portray a pseudoscience like astrology (jyotishya) as some kind fact and logic based discipline, but dismiss nearly three thousand years of highly developed Indian philosophy, as some kind of tea shop opinion. So all the works of Aitreya, Yagnavalkya, krishna, Gaudapada, Kumrarila Bhatta, Badararayana, Sankara, Suresvara, Madhava, Nagarjuna, Vallabhacharya,Vidhyaranya,Sayana..etc, are second second rate options, but Bejan Daruwala's weekly predictions are to be treated as logical facts
Some of the works are authentic but most of the work done before 800-1000 BC has been destroyed or rewritten by others with modifications.

But, the works of most of the so called scholars after the advent of buddhism was based on corruption. This has been stated even by Dayananda Saraswati that the recent puranas and recent bhakti or other works were just degradation.

The ones you are quoting is just that - degradation. The works were mostly impractical and opinions, generally derived from other opinions rather than based on actual proof. Instead of acting funny, first show me the facts or data on the basis of which any of the works were done. If you can't, then you must accept that these were just opinions.

Horasastra was nothing more than a Greek import, along with their romantic notions that celestial bodies can determine the fates of human affairs
Do you have proper source for this? I hope that these are not one of those Aryan Invasion theory type distortions. History is not as simple as you want it to be. The entire area from India to Mesopotamia to Byzantine to Greece had immense knowledge based civilisation. Considering that all this area is connected by land, it is logical to assume that all of these were connected. Mesopotamia became Zoorostrian calling Asuras as good, Roman empire was formed in around 700-800BC and eventually the relationship broke off.

Please don't believe 8n the Greek import of horasastra. It ia not true

Not to offend anyone, but modern Indian jyotishya is quackery and should strictly be seen as entertainment only.
Calling jyotishya as quackery is unbelievably stupid and is an outright dismissal of facts. Jyotishya is not the weekly updates of quacks seen on newspaper but proper calculation based on Kundali/Jataka. These are very accurate in predicting a person's fate wherever the infoemainfois available. Not all of the fate can be predicted as some are not explicitly available in the calculation. However, those which can be predicted are predicted with astonishing accuracy. Many people have been able to predict the likely death dates. I have seen my relatives doing that and it coming true. Also, things like Buddha being predicted to become a saint etc are still known today.

Horasastra coming from Greece etc is plain wrong as even during 600BC Buddha's Jyotishya was predicted. Theory that Horasastra came from Greeks is as good as Aryan invasion theory. This is real quackery.
 

Sourav Kumar

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I once considered Astrology (Jyotisha) as a fraud and impossible thing. But then why would Swami Vijnananda write a translation of Vrihajjatakam by Varahamihir? What proof do we have that Varahamihir was a non-sense guy and Swami Vijnanananda was a non-sense fellow? On the contrary Swami Vijnanananda who was a direct disciple of Paramahansa Ramakrishna was a science graduate and engineer himself and seemed to be an enlightened man?
 

S.A.T.A

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Some of the works are authentic but most of the work done before 800-1000 BC has been destroyed or rewritten by others with modifications.

But, the works of most of the so called scholars after the advent of buddhism was based on corruption. This has been stated even by Dayananda Saraswati that the recent puranas and recent bhakti or other works were just degradation.

The ones you are quoting is just that - degradation. The works were mostly impractical and opinions, generally derived from other opinions rather than based on actual proof. Instead of acting funny, first show me the facts or data on the basis of which any of the works were done. If you can't, then you must accept that these were just opinions.


Do you have proper source for this? I hope that these are not one of those Aryan Invasion theory type distortions. History is not as simple as you want it to be. The entire area from India to Mesopotamia to Byzantine to Greece had immense knowledge based civilisation. Considering that all this area is connected by land, it is logical to assume that all of these were connected. Mesopotamia became Zoorostrian calling Asuras as good, Roman empire was formed in around 700-800BC and eventually the relationship broke off.

Please don't believe 8n the Greek import of horasastra. It ia not true



Calling jyotishya as quackery is unbelievably stupid and is an outright dismissal of facts. Jyotishya is not the weekly updates of quacks seen on newspaper but proper calculation based on Kundali/Jataka. These are very accurate in predicting a person's fate wherever the infoemainfois available. Not all of the fate can be predicted as some are not explicitly available in the calculation. However, those which can be predicted are predicted with astonishing accuracy. Many people have been able to predict the likely death dates. I have seen my relatives doing that and it coming true. Also, things like Buddha being predicted to become a saint etc are still known today.

Horasastra coming from Greece etc is plain wrong as even during 600BC Buddha's Jyotishya was predicted. Theory that Horasastra came from Greeks is as good as Aryan invasion theory. This is real quackery.
You continue to betray lack of knowledge in history, but curiously you seem to know very little about astrology either. I'm trying to be funny, in fact I'm making lot of effort not to sound condescending. I usually expect very high standards from my interlocutor.

The proof of the "Horashastra" being a foreign lies in its etymology (in case you are you are not educated about such terms, etymology means the study of the roots of a word). "Hora" is a Greek word meaning time /hour- from thense the English word 'hour' comes from. 'Horoscopus" or Greek predictive astrology took a strong hold on Greek intellect at the same time beginning of the common era and there is strong evidence that it made its way into India via the info-Greek states. Varahamihira (6th CE), whose works like' Brihatjataka, 'Panchasiddantika are celebrated as some of the seminal works on astrology and astronomy. In fact one of the earliest treatise on astrology(based on zodiac singn) is the "Yavanajataka" (circa 3rd CE) meaning' Greek Astrology '. Yavanajataka's clear influence on Varahamihira is evident from the fact that the list of decans( subdivision of zodiac signs) in bruhatjataka is similar to the one in' Yavanajataka. Moreover in his "pancasiddantika" (treatise on 5 systems of astronomy) varahamihira provides summary on two systems, "romakasiddanta" ( Roman system) "paulisasiddanta" (system of Paul), which are decidedly Greek. Please do look up works of David Pingree, who has translated varahamihira's works and has written extensively on Greek influences on Indian astrology & astronomy.... But perhaps I should leave you content with David Frawley and not bother you with the chore of reading serious scholarship...
 

S.A.T.A

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I once considered Astrology (Jyotisha) as a fraud and impossible thing. But then why would Swami Vijnananda write a translation of Vrihajjatakam by Varahamihir? What proof do we have that Varahamihir was a non-sense guy and Swami Vijnanananda was a non-sense fellow? On the contrary Swami Vijnanananda who was a direct disciple of Paramahansa Ramakrishna was a science graduate and engineer himself and seemed to be an enlightened man?
Because Varahamihira was a first rate astronomer and his works on astronomy should be treated on par with Arya bhatta, Brahmaguputa, Bhaskara et al... Bruhatsamhita is a treatise in the class of samhita, which means it was an encyclopedic collection of all extant works on astronomy, astrology, mathematics,vaastu etc. Just because he was brilliant, doesn't make him correct about all things. He lived a 1500 years ago and didn't have the advantage of developments in science of the post 18th century....
 

Advaidhya Tiwari

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You continue to betray lack of knowledge in history, but curiously you seem to know very little about astrology either. I'm trying to be funny, in fact I'm making lot of effort not to sound condescending. I usually expect very high standards from my interlocutor.

The proof of the "Horashastra" being a foreign lies in its etymology (in case you are you are not educated about such terms, etymology means the study of the roots of a word). "Hora" is a Greek word meaning time /hour- from thense the English word 'hour' comes from. 'Horoscopus" or Greek predictive astrology took a strong hold on Greek intellect at the same time beginning of the common era and there is strong evidence that it made its way into India via the info-Greek states. Varahamihira (6th CE), whose works like' Brihatjataka, 'Panchasiddantika are celebrated as some of the seminal works on astrology and astronomy. In fact one of the earliest treatise on astrology(based on zodiac singn) is the "Yavanajataka" (circa 3rd CE) meaning' Greek Astrology '. Yavanajataka's clear influence on Varahamihira is evident from the fact that the list of decans( subdivision of zodiac signs) in bruhatjataka is similar to the one in' Yavanajataka. Moreover in his "pancasiddantika" (treatise on 5 systems of astronomy) varahamihira provides summary on two systems, "romakasiddanta" ( Roman system) "paulisasiddanta" (system of Paul), which are decidedly Greek. Please do look up works of David Pingree, who has translated varahamihira's works and has written extensively on Greek influences on Indian astrology & astronomy.... But perhaps I should leave you content with David Frawley and not bother you with the chore of reading serious scholarship...
Firstly, I have not said that David Frawley as a deep source but just as source for a layman.

Coming back to the point,you hqvenot explained about the Jyotishya of Gautama Buddha in 600BC. First explain this instead of quoting Varahamitra or someone else of 600AD. This is a gap of 1000 years we are speaking. Please read properly and seek out the origin.

You are completely ignoring older works like Surya Siddhantha, which is predating 1000BC in its original form (which is now unavailable but only available as snippets in various other works). Simply checking WIKIPEDIA without understanding of the subject is quite bad.

I may not b knowing mich of the Hindus philosophy of medieval times but that is because I tried to understand them but found them to be opinions and hence stopped reading them out of disgust. This doesn't mean that I know nothing at all. I read of only those works which are based on facts.

So, please don't argue just based on limited knowledge of the subject. In case of astrology, I have explicitly mentioned Gautama Buddha to give a rough idea of 500-600 BC timeline of Jyotishya. But you end you telling of works of 500-600 AD. What sense does this make?
 

S.A.T.A

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Firstly, I have not said that David Frawley as a deep source but just as source for a layman.

Coming back to the point,you hqvenot explained about the Jyotishya of Gautama Buddha in 600BC. First explain this instead of quoting Varahamitra or someone else of 600AD. This is a gap of 1000 years we are speaking. Please read properly and seek out the origin.

You are completely ignoring older works like Surya Siddhantha, which is predating 1000BC in its original form (which is now unavailable but only available as snippets in various other works). Simply checking WIKIPEDIA without understanding of the subject is quite bad.

I may not b knowing mich of the Hindus philosophy of medieval times but that is because I tried to understand them but found them to be opinions and hence stopped reading them out of disgust. This doesn't mean that I know nothing at all. I read of only those works which are based on facts.

So, please don't argue just based on limited knowledge of the subject. In case of astrology, I have explicitly mentioned Gautama Buddha to give a rough idea of 500-600 BC timeline of Jyotishya. But you end you telling of works of 500-600 AD. What sense does this make?
May be you can help us by stating the book which refers to this so called 'jyotishya of Buddha'. All known biography /hagiography's of Buddha are later than the common era.

P. S: I can assure you that I can provide a good account on the 'limits of my knowledge, but I'm afraid you are right now scrapping the ends of an empty barrel, as far as your knowledge is concerned.
 
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Advaidhya Tiwari

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May be you can help us by stating the book which refers to this so called 'jyotishya of Buddha'. All known biography /hagiography's of Buddha are later than the common era.

P. S: I can assure you that I can provide a good account on the 'limits of my knowledge, but I'm afraid you are right now scrapping the ends of an empty barrel, as far as your knowledge is concerned.
I hope you know that Buddha's biography was written not just by Indians but also across the world and is definitely before 200BC. Several rounds of buddhist councils had happened and kings like Ashoka spread Buddhism extensively in 250-200BC. The documents about Buddha is quite old,much older than Varahamitra.

Unfortunately, for you, your lower IQ doesn't permit you to reason freely and based on absolute facts and hence have to go searching for opinions of someone to justify yourself. It is you who are scraping the empty barrel of your knowledge as you seem to have run out of content and simply seem to repeat the same books which you have in mind.
 

S.A.T.A

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I hope you know that Buddha's biography was written not just by Indians but also across the world and is definitely before 200BC. Several rounds of buddhist councils had happened and kings like Ashoka spread Buddhism extensively in 250-200BC. The documents about Buddha is quite old,much older than Varahamitra.

Unfortunately, for you, your lower IQ doesn't permit you to reason freely and based on absolute facts and hence have to go searching for opinions of someone to justify yourself. It is you who are scraping the empty barrel of your knowledge as you seem to have run out of content and simply seem to repeat the same books which you have in mind.
Let's leave your thoughts on my IQ out of this, since to be fair you will be out of your depth here, and concentrate on "which book/treatise/inscription refers to your so called to the jyotishya of Buddha. Please be kind enough to refer the name and possible date..
 

Advaidhya Tiwari

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Let's leave your thoughts on my IQ out of this, since to be fair you will be out of your depth here, and concentrate on "which book/treatise/inscription refers to your so called to the jyotishya of Buddha. Please be kind enough to refer the name and possible date..
How should I know of the treatise that refers to the jyotishya that predicted Buddha's future? It is a known biography of Buddha as found in texts dating to older than 100-200B that Siddhartha's father called numerous Astrologers to verify Siddhartha's future and all except one predicted that he will be either a great Chakravarthy or a Buddha. Only one Brahman astrologer predicted that he would be only Buddha. The very foundation of Siddhartha becoming Buddha came because his father refused to give him religious education and prohibited him from seeing harsh reality of life.

This early biography of Buddha is mentioned in almost all texts of Buddha. Ashvaghosha in 100AD had written the story of Buddha. The texts written in Gandhara dating to 200-250BC have also been found about Buddha's life. All versions accept the same view of Buddha's Childhood

Also, the acceptance of Ashvaghisha in 100AD about Jyotishya as a method of future prediction shows that the Jyotishya was already a well known branch much before 100AD and had been given widespread acceptance. So, you quoting Varahamitra of 500-600AD is really absurd.

I don't know the treatise of the Jyotishya of the 500BC time. There were many treatise like Surya Siddhantha etc which have been lost now and none knows what exactly it said. Similarly, the Jyotishya treatise of the past might have been lost now and none may be able you give you the work now. All I can say is that Jyotishya was very ancient and hence not something derived from Greece. In fact, it could be that Greeks borrowed it from India and made use of it themselves
 

Kshatriya87

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why would god create such imperfect world? hunger, disease and crime- all are god's plan?
answer me o'faithful ones!
Without imperfection, there won't be any benchmark for perfection. Without unhappiness, you wouldn't even know what happiness feels like.

In the end, its all related to Karma.
 

Indx TechStyle

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No... they look like this
View attachment 33011
Those are bloody communists whose atheism has nothing to do with rational philosophy or science. But their despise towards society because of hardships they underwent and only wish to oppose the beliefs of elites. Their atheism as lethal as any belief system.

Not a conclusion of debate or thought experiments. But stupid obstinance to oppose society.
 

Advaidhya Tiwari

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Those are bloody communists whose atheism has nothing to do with rational philosophy or science. But their despise towards society because of hardships they underwent and only wish to oppose the beliefs of elites. Their atheism as lethal as any belief system.

Not a conclusion of debate or thought experiments. But stupid obstinance to oppose society.
Actually Atheism of communists is based on their conclusion that church is retarded and only a means of control. They also saw similarities in Islam. So, they ended up concluding that all religions are retarded and only a means of control. Hence they chose Atheism as a means of getting out of the religious control.

So, as an afterthought, communist atheism was a reaction to Abrahamic cults and considering the options they had, it was actually well grounded in pragmatism and reason.

However, when we get to see eastern religions like India or China, the ideals of communism appears to be fanatical and as just another form of Abrahamic zeal.
 

S.A.T.A

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How should I know of the treatise that refers to the jyotishya that predicted Buddha's future? It is a known biography of Buddha as found in texts dating to older than 100-200B that Siddhartha's father called numerous Astrologers to verify Siddhartha's future and all except one predicted that he will be either a great Chakravarthy or a Buddha. Only one Brahman astrologer predicted that he would be only Buddha. The very foundation of Siddhartha becoming Buddha came because his father refused to give him religious education and prohibited him from seeing harsh reality of life.

This early biography of Buddha is mentioned in almost all texts of Buddha. Ashvaghosha in 100AD had written the story of Buddha. The texts written in Gandhara dating to 200-250BC have also been found about Buddha's life. All versions accept the same view of Buddha's Childhood

Also, the acceptance of Ashvaghisha in 100AD about Jyotishya as a method of future prediction shows that the Jyotishya was already a well known branch much before 100AD and had been given widespread acceptance. So, you quoting Varahamitra of 500-600AD is really absurd.

I don't know the treatise of the Jyotishya of the 500BC time. There were many treatise like Surya Siddhantha etc which have been lost now and none knows what exactly it said. Similarly, the Jyotishya treatise of the past might have been lost now and none may be able you give you the work now. All I can say is that Jyotishya was very ancient and hence not something derived from Greece. In fact, it could be that Greeks borrowed it from India and made use of it themselves
First you say ' how would you know the name of such a text and in the next line you claim it's a well known biography (apparently so well known that you don't know its name). Clearly the term contradiction does not exist in your dictionary. The short answer is that you don't know. Your loops in obfuscation is illustrative of the fact that you do not have any knowledge of objective history and what ever history that you have happened to come by, was not through any academic rigor, but what you have lapped up from social media or YouTube.

This entire conversation has been an exercise in utmost futility and I think I'm going to let you live in peace in your make believe world of the "popular history".
 

Advaidhya Tiwari

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First you say ' how would you know the name of such a text and in the next line you claim it's a well known biography (apparently so well known that you don't know its name). Clearly the term contradiction does not exist in your dictionary. The short answer is that you don't know.
You seem to be very persistent with your own garbage and use strong words as if you know what you are speaking.

If you didn't understand what I meant, you coild have asked. Bu you had to make big assumption of me learning shit from sicial media or YouTube despite ny arguments almost always being spontaneous and to the point which no learner of youtube can get.

Nevertheless, here is the explanation-

I don't know everything. I know some knowledge wile I don't know some other knowledge.

What you asked -
Treatise or book of Jyotishya used.

My Answer -
I don't know.

Question that arises as a result-
How do I know that Buddha's future was predicted?

My Answer -
Because of biography of Buddha written by Ashvaghosha in 100AD and biography of buddha written in Gandhari language in 200-300 BC. But these biographies don't mention the treatise of Jyotishya used or more details of Jyotishya
 

S.A.T.A

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You seem to be very persistent with your own garbage and use strong words as if you know what you are speaking.

If you didn't understand what I meant, you coild have asked. Bu you had to make big assumption of me learning shit from sicial media or YouTube despite ny arguments almost always being spontaneous and to the point which no learner of youtube can get.

Nevertheless, here is the explanation-

I don't know everything. I know some knowledge wile I don't know some other knowledge.

What you asked -
Treatise or book of Jyotishya used.

My Answer -
I don't know.

Question that arises as a result-
How do I know that Buddha's future was predicted?

My Answer -
Because of biography of Buddha written by Ashvaghosha in 100AD and biography of buddha written in Gandhari language in 200-300 BC. But these biographies don't mention the treatise of Jyotishya used or more details of Jyotishya
I was not asking for the name of jyotishya text (why would I want it)
I'll give you one more chance, give me the name of the text/treatise which you claim describes ' prediction of Buddha's future asceticism based on jyotishya (horoscope as we commonly understand). Ashvagosha' s 'Buddhacarita' does not cut the ice, because, as per the 'Carita', sage Asita, who was living in the the buddhist heaven, was already informed by the gods that the future Buddha was born. So why would the sage need an Astral chart to know about something that he already is aware...

P.S: please try to answer without frothing at the mouth. You always have the option to remain silent and I'll let it pass.
 
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