TEDBF or ORCA Updates

[Raj Malhotra]

Mirage 10 additional which were purchased by Vajpayi Govt ? Did that deal go through?

Mig-29K around 46

 

[Bleh]

In my opinion we should cancel 83 MK1A and Speed Up MWF . An export variant of MK1A Tej ex can develop for demonstration purposes. MWF is a better option than Mk 1A

And what is the logic?

83 Mark1A cancellation wont speed up MWF development, just a halt in production from 2022 to 2025 (quickest possible for MWF to get FOC).
Shall we then cancel MWF and fast-track AMCA (like some are already saying) because AMCA is a better option than MWF... and wait right upto 2027-8?

And invest in ORCA and TEDBF set Rafale as bunch Mark , First prototype by 2027 Production in 2030 Similar like AMCA .

Read my previous post, just before yours.

 

[Karthi]

And what is the logic?

83 Mark1A cancellation wont speed up MWF development, just a halt in production from 2022 to 2025 (quickest possible for MWF to get FOC).
Shall we then cancel MWF and fast-track AMCA (like some are already saying) because AMCA is a better option than MWF... and halt production until 2027-8?
Read my previous post, just before yours.

The budget is getting low , and COVID made it even worse we need money for these projects . MWF MK1A are single engine they have inherent disadvantages . MWF and Tejas can be used to counter Pak single engine fighters but may not be much effective against Chinese aircrafts , ORCA will be helpful in repeal Chinese aircrafts Twin Engine Fighter with Better manuverablity and power , for powerful Radar and EW system is more important than MWF .

 

[Kchontha]

If mwf and tedbf/orca fructify in time, then we'd be saying bye bye to all foreign single or twin engine medium category fourth gen fighters parading for Indian air force by their foreign OEMs and their pimps just like mk1 and mk1a destroying their rivals and in the process paving the way for an indigenous fighter aircraft industrial ecosystem.

 

[Steven Rogers]

The budget is getting low , and COVID made it even worse we need money for these projects . MWF MK1A are single engine they have inherent disadvantages . MWF and Tejas can be used to counter Pak single engine fighters but may not be much effective against Chinese aircrafts , ORCA will be helpful in repeal Chinese aircrafts Twin Engine Fighter with Better manuverablity and power , for powerful Radar and EW system is more important than MWF .

Sino Thai excercise saw Gripen shooting up Su27 and J11 ....

 

[IndianHawk]

Many defence enthusiasts and Experts thinks' ORCA(Is not even in papers) and TEDBF is a waste of money , and India should consider importing more Rafale for Airforce and a Naval Aircraft for under development INS Vikrant'. Some want India to procure stealth Aircrafts by avoiding 4th generation Aircraft.

But in our opinion India should go on with both TEDBF and ORCA . In future(within 10-15 years) we need huge quantities of fighter jets to counter Chinese and Pak Airforce and also to replace Su 30 MKI , Mirage ,Mig 29 and Jaguar.

Let's look at the current strength of Chinese Fighter Aircraft (4th and 5th).

Su 35 -24

Su 30 MKK- 76

Chengdu J10 - 500+

Shenyang J11-346

Shenyang J16- 128

Chengdu J20 - 20

Total- 1100 plus
--------------------------------------------------------

Pakistan Airforce :

Mirage - 180

F16- 76

JF 17- 107

Total -363+
----------------------------------------------
Indian Airforce:

Su 30 MKI -272

Mig 29 UPG- 66

HAL Tejas - 16 (16 More)

Rafale - 36 in order

Jaguar - 90

Total -450

----------------------------------------------------

Indian Airforce outnumbered in 3 to 1 if you add 3+ generation Aircraft in this then it is even worse for IAF.

Both China and Pakistan adding more and more 4th and 5th generation Aircraft's rapidly. in 2030-35 we can assume Chinese will have 1500 modern 4th and 5 th generation fighters . Pakistan will have 500 4th generation Aircraft's, fifth generation J31 from China may find a place in PAF.

To counter this grave threat India need atleast 1000 4th and 5th Aircraft's .

We will have AMCA as a 5+ generation Aircraft but the problem of this stealth aircrafts are its maintenance, the cost of maintenance is very high , and another major limitation of this stealth aircrafts is firepower . Stealth aircraft carrying missiles in its internal Weapon bay limits it's firepower.

For usual patrolling and reconnaissance we can't use stealth aircrafts reason is, high cost per sortie and frequent patrolling in border areas may reveal it's RCS figure's. For such missions we need aircrafts like ORCA with advanced sensors.

Another important thing is we can export these aircrafts and can earn money, strategic partnerships and crucial influence over friendly countries . Influence is one of the next generation Weapon which China already mastered and outperformed all other countries.

So in short it will be nice if we a develop a ORCA and TEDBF for our forces to replace old fighters of IAF, to get some revenue and to counter the extreme threat from China-Pak Nexus.

The lack of vision in Defence sector turned out into costly for India in the past it's the Time to act with vision.
View attachment 45301

Porkistani mirages are not 4th gen . They are mirage iii and v which are 2nd and 3rd gen . Almost all are 50+ years old.

 

[IndianHawk]

The budget is getting low , and COVID made it even worse we need money for these projects . MWF MK1A are single engine they have inherent disadvantages . MWF and Tejas can be used to counter Pak single engine fighters but may not be much effective against Chinese aircrafts , ORCA will be helpful in repeal Chinese aircrafts Twin Engine Fighter with Better manuverablity and power , for powerful Radar and EW system is more important than MWF .

We need more single engine jets . We already have lot of twin engine . And mwf and mk1a both are already budgeted for .

 

[Tactical Frog]

Does China really operate 500 J-10 ? In its 2020 World Airforces report, Flightglobal gives only 235. Kind of weird.
What is in your opinion the best place to look for Chinese numbers ?

EDIT . Hmm, okay.

East Pendulum (French blog) +400 (2017)

I guess 500 is likely then.

 

[Karthi]

Sino Thai excercise saw Gripen shooting up Su27 and J11 ....

Only in BVR and that too in 10 Years ago , most of their Fighters upgraded with AESA Radar and Chinese AAM , story is different now

 

[Karthi]

We need more single engine jets . We already have lot of twin engine . And mwf and mk1a both are already budgeted for .

This is the problem , we are judging our ability of 2030 - 2040 by using current figures and capabilities . I didn't see anything other Than AMCA in 2035 . MKI s are almost NB dead by that time , Mig 29 also , We need a twin Engine Fighter to replace 272 MKIs , 72 Mig 29s , and need a lot of fighters to counter PAF and PLAF , don't know how many UCAVs and UAVs will go into our enemies inventory .

Today we believe MKIs , Mig 29 and AMCA are enough, probably in that time we will discuss about ' how these people failed to find a suitable replace' . We can incorporate all kind of tech to ORCA including DEWs, what if somehave we delayed AMCA to 2040 . The same import and MMRCA 4.0 or 5.0 drama will continue

 

[Bleh]

Only in BVR and that too in 10 Years ago , most of their Fighters upgraded with AESA Radar and Chinese AAM , story is different now

Nahi re... November 2019.

Apparently the Su-XX/J-XX Flankers may not be the superfighters they were thought to be in face of good situational awareness, EW and BVRs.

 

[Karthi]

Nahi re... November 2019.

Apparently the Su-XX/J-XX Flankers may not be the superfighters they were thought to be in face of good situational awareness, EW and BVRs.

https://militarywatchmagazine.com/a...ers-in-beyond-visual-range-combat-simulations

Nope bro , in WVR the kill ratio 25:1 favour Chinese. Su 27 don't have a good BVR that time , their pl 15 will certainly gave them an edge today . We should accept the fact .

 

[IndianHawk]

This is the problem , we are judging our ability of 2030 - 2040 by using current figures and capabilities . I didn't see anything other Than AMCA in 2035 . MKI s are almost NB dead by that time , Mig 29 also , We need a twin Engine Fighter to replace 272 MKIs , 72 Mig 29s , and need a lot of fighters to counter PAF and PLAF , don't know how many UCAVs and UAVs will go into our enemies inventory .

Today we believe MKIs , Mig 29 and AMCA are enough, probably in that time we will discuss about ' how these people failed to find a suitable replace' . We can incorporate all kind of tech to ORCA including DEWs, what if somehave we delayed AMCA to 2040 . The same import and MMRCA 4.0 or 5.0 drama will continue

We are still building mki . They will serve till 2040 -50 easily. They will be replaced by both amca and orca. And they will be replaced gradually over long time.

Mig29 will be replaced by mwf. Mwf is single engine but can carry similar payload to mig29. mwf will replace all mig29k+ mirage + jags== 200+ in total.

Amca won't be delayed much because we are building it into mark 1 and 2 . So even if mark 1 has some shortcoming it will still be produced while mk2 will overcome shortcomings. Similarly there can also be mk3 for further development of amca platform which could deploy 6th gen technology .

Amca is not just a plane but our next gen design platform too.

Orca can replace earlier batch su30 from 2032-34 along with amca mk1 and later mk2 ....

 

[Suryavanshi]

Mirage 4000

This is what our ORCA could look like.

 

[Bleh]

https://militarywatchmagazine.com/a...ers-in-beyond-visual-range-combat-simulations

Nope bro , in WVR the kill ratio 25:1 favour Chinese. Su 27 don't have a good BVR that time , their pl 15 will certainly gave them an edge today . We should accept the fact .

What do you mean "that time"!?..
This is end of 2019 we're talking about. And if you're getting killed 11:1 at BVR, there aint gonna be no WVR.

Superiority in situational awareness, tech quality, EW will beat maneuverability everyday in 21st century.

Mirage 4000

View attachment 45334

This is what our ORCA could look like.

Unlikely. (If ORCA actually happens, unlike TEDBF which has higher possibility.)
It had much larger engines of Mirage-2000.
Rafale is much smaller than that one, with twin F404 sized engines. F414 isis only slightly larger.

 

[IndianHawk]

Mirage 4000

View attachment 45334

This is what our ORCA could look like.

Orca will be much smaller than mirage4000 . Orcas size will be similar to rafale. Except for air intake position orca might look very similar to rafale.

 

[IndianHawk]

https://militarywatchmagazine.com/a...ers-in-beyond-visual-range-combat-simulations

Nope bro , in WVR the kill ratio 25:1 favour Chinese. Su 27 don't have a good BVR that time , their pl 15 will certainly gave them an edge today . We should accept the fact .

By same logic gripen E now has meteor. And our mwf will have sfdr . So high rcs of Chinese su30 clones will be at sever disadvantage.

BTW Chinese themselves recently claimed that their j10c( aesa ) beat j16(aesa) in excercise. Go figure..

Mwf/mk1a is even lower rcs than j10 and much more sophisticated radar + bvr.

 

[Bleh]

Interesting. Looks like I was wrong after all.

 

[IndianHawk]

Interesting. Looks like I was wrong after all.

This was obvious no one developes a new jet just for 57 orders. Either navy will commission 150 tedbf at once or airforce will pitch in with orca . A volume of 150-200 jets is required to recoup investment.

 

[Steven Rogers]

Only in BVR and that too in 10 Years ago , most of their Fighters upgraded with AESA Radar and Chinese AAM , story is different now

The excercise held in 2015 not 10 years ago..and if you take WVR conflict,the gripen was handicapped with the vastly inferior Aim9L...do you have any source which claims most of the aircraft are equipped with AESA and ANY different aam....