TEDBF or ORCA Updates

[Bleh]

MWF vs elongated Tejas with canards vs Mark1.

The nose, canopy, spine, base of tail, air-intakes, wing root leading edge, (maybe) the positioning of engine etc. have all been changed.

Tejas vs the crudely elongated twin-engine canarded Tejas they presented as ORCA.

 

[Bleh]

More accurately.

Which is why I claimed TEDBF is more likely to be base on NLCA Mark2... simply because it is a dedicated Navy platform, with reinforced undercarriage and landing gear.

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

More accurately.
View attachment 45017
Which is why I claimed TEDBF is more likely to be base on NLCA Mark2... simply because it is a dedicated Navy platform, with reinforced undercarriage and landing gear.

The baseline design is going to be similar to NLCA Mk1 with the exception being that it would be twin engine and not single engine like NLCA Mk1.

 

[Bleh]

The baseline design is going to be similar to NLCA Mk1 with the exception being that it would be twin engine and not single engine like NLCA Mk1.

HIGHLY unlikely.
Unlike that jugaad on LCA trainer, the NLCA Mark2 was more mature platform designed specifically for Naval ops and much better suited to handle a bigger heavier airframe. Lrger than MWF AF, will barely need any widening to fit a 2nd F414, and only little elongation for canards.

This (not that earlier one).

From this angle looks easier to add Conformal Fuel Tank too.

 

[aditya10r]

More accurately.
View attachment 45017
Which is why I claimed TEDBF is more likely to be base on NLCA Mark2... simply because it is a dedicated Navy platform, with reinforced undercarriage and landing gear.

Air force doesnt need another twin engine fighter apart from RAFALE and AMCA in mid long term.

They should simply stick to TEJAS MK2 MWF and in the meantime order over 200 MK1A.

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[Bleh]

Air force doesnt need another twin engine fighter apart from RAFALE and AMCA in mid long term.

They should simply stick to TEJAS MK2 MWF and in the meantime order over 200 MK1A.

__________________________________________

That remains to be seen. At this point i wont even risk to assume that there is more than 36 Rafale coming.
My hunch is whoever agrees for the most/best engine ToT, will snatch the MMRCA.2 (if the whole farce doesn't roll over and die, which it might).

But yes although HVT have hinted at joint funding, ORCA is optional, which is more the reason for TEDBF to be an extrapolation of NLCA Mk2.

 

[aditya10r]

That remains to be seen. At this point i wont even risk to assume that there is more than 36 Rafale coming.
My hunch is whoever agrees for the most/best engine ToT, will snatch the MMRCA.2 (if the whole farce doesn't roll over and die, which it might).

But yes although HVT have hinted at joint funding, ORCA is optional, which is more the reason for TEDBF to be an extrapolation of NLCA Mk2.

Yeah but the whole engine deal could result in a steeper decline in squadron numbers.
That's why in the meantime stick to TEJAS MK1A.Go all in on MK2 MWF,Navy,if it has the budget,should go ahead with TEDBF.And order additional 36/54 rafales.Present 36 rafales are not enough for even one front.

Plus why would anyone hand us over the engine technology.They have invested 100s of billions of dollars into it so why would they give it away for chips.
We need to develop it on our own.

 

[Bleh]

Our idea of what they should don'tdon't matter so i will not address that, but this part.

Plus why would anyone hand us over the engine technology.They have invested 100s of billions of dollars into it so why would they give it away for chips.
We need to develop it on our own.

They wont be doing so for free. There would be massive order of hundreds for whoever does.
Also something similar to codevelopment, like the Snecma deal that ran into the ground. Before that happened I too was very sure about more Rafale coming as MMRCA. But now, its more complicated.

That is why i think F-18 now has a chance, if they can outmanoeuvre the French with a engine and AF-Navy combined order deal.

Maybe. I wont bet on it. But i wont bet against it either.

 

[Immanuel]

IAF and IN are going bonkers. This way LCA will never really shine. It seems their plan to kill the LCA after 83 MK-1A. This TEDBF/OCRA whatever the fuck they want to call it seems to me like an obstacle. So wait these geniuses want to add a 4.5 gen twin engine home made bird around 2035. Since it's an entirely new aircraft, no way it takes less than 10 years of testing to full scale production. What happens to MK-2? At this point, I'll be surprised if these douches can keep the LCA line open beyond 2025.

I am now actually hoping for imports.

 

[Bleh]

Read the previous posts too.

IAF and IN are going bonkers. So wait these geniuses want to add a 4.5 gen twin engine home made bird around 2035. Since it's an entirely new aircraft, no way it takes less than 10 years of testing to full scale production. What happens to MK-2?

MWF will enter service in IAF as planned. However NLCA Mark2 was deemed underpowered for meaningful payload to spearhead carrier ops and rejected.

NAMCA is far away, design tweaks only to commence after AF AMCA is cleared. Atleast 2030.
So this TEDBF is an entirely IN concept based on their requirements. Navies also apparently cannot ever go truely stealthy as a carrier battle group will always be detected and location of their jets narrowed down. So they wanted a canarded delta the twin-engine deck based fighter to replace Mig-29.

 

[Flying Dagger]

Problem is our politics around defence is too loud. Ideally we should have already looked into twin engine aircraft concept in early 2010s.

If they try and fail it s fine but they are wasting decades to argue whether we should try or not that's disappointing.

Let's hit for tedbf if it succeeds will save billions if it didn't import option will be open. 18-36 more Rafale will do good for IAF and depending on the progress of various projects a decision can be made later.

 

[Hydra3]

Problem is our politics around defence is too loud. Ideally we should have already looked into twin engine aircraft concept in early 2010s.

If they try and fail it s fine but they are wasting decades to argue whether we should try or not that's disappointing.

Let's hit for tedbf if it succeeds will save billions if it didn't import option will be open. 18-36 more Rafale will do good for IAF and depending on the progress of various projects a decision can be made later.

Exactly, we should have started way back in 2010 itself.

 

[Bleh]

@Kuntal the internal structure of NLCA Mark2 converted to fit TEDBF.

Ideally we should have already looked into twin engine aircraft concept in early 2010s.

Ideally? Ideally HF-73 should not have been ditched, more Jaguars or whole new Mig-29 should not have been pushed over Mirage-2000 which should have been license built right in the 80s 90s.

At 2010 the very survival of Tejas itself was uncertain, forget such ideal situations.

 

[IndianHawk]

If they try and fail it s fine but they are wasting decades to argue whether we should try or not that's disappointing.

This is very true. We are too chicken to try new things because we don't want to be criticized if we fail. This attitude needs to be changed . We need to go thicker skin and go forward with our technology no matter how much criticism we face .

 

[Flying Dagger]

This is very true. We are too chicken to try new things because we don't want to be criticized if we fail. This attitude needs to be changed . We need to go thicker skin and go forward with our technology no matter how much criticism we face .

Absolutely if we look into Europe USA Russian history they have had lots of failed projects but never deterred from taking new one.

When we went with new mk2 with canards we did the right thing by acknowledging the limitation of tejas and moving on with a more refined design. Tedbf will further take the learning forward.

300 odd Tejas 200 tedbf /orca will make this project feasible.

323 Tejas (mk1 mk1a mk2) + 130-140 twin engine will make 21 sqd for IAF along with 14 Su ( which will start retiring 35 onwards till 50s)
And 4 Rafale sqd.

Means not more than 35 sqd will be present at any point of time in next decade. ( Not including old mig 29 Mirage Jags as they will be phased out in timely manner.

So all make complete sense to go for it.

 

[IndianHawk]

When we went with new mk2 with canards we did the right thing by acknowledging the limitation of tejas and moving on with a more refined design. Tedbf will further take the learning forward.

Exactly . These refinement can only happen if you don't quit building. That is also why tedbf and orca are so important. They will bring optimization to our design / implementation and they will also de risk AMCA project in huge way.

Our numbers need to go way up. If we are serious about being a major power we need atleas 1000 combat jets. At least 50squadrons. We will need 400 stealth jets backed by 600 4.5 gen birds to be able to dominate our neighborhood.

 

[Snowcat]

Exactly . These refinement can only happen if you don't quit building. That is also why tedbf and orca are so important. They will bring optimization to our design / implementation and they will also de risk AMCA project in huge way.

Our numbers need to go way up. If we are serious about being a major power we need atleas 1000 combat jets. At least 50squadrons. We will need 400 stealth jets backed by 600 4.5 gen birds to be able to dominate our neighborhood.

Won't be happening Unless we reduce the budget allocations for army. India has a way too many soldiers on ground. Need to just improve their personal gear and induct automated artillery and systems and reduce the number to about 7 lakhs like China did.

 

[dude00720]

Won't be happening Unless we reduce the budget allocations for army. India has a way too many soldiers on ground. Need to just improve their personal gear and induct automated artillery and systems and reduce the number to about 7 lakhs like China did.

$5 Trillion by 2027 will be a bg thing too. Considering we are 3 trillion today. Budgets could double. But, I dont think Govt has that in mind. In the past, increased budgets have not been used by IAF effecively. The Sonia regime corrupted a lot of airforce requirements. Foreign buying became default. HAL became lazy. Indigenisation was systematically ignored.

Now, Modi govt has cracked the whip. IAF has to work in limited budgets. Seriously, did we expect 117 Rafales in a single shot? Someone wanted a huge commission.

G2G deal put paid to all plans.

 

[Bleh]

All the above are extreme ideal case scenarios, where everything happened as per the most prudent course and everyone is far-sighted.

But in that universe, it is very possible, that Tejas series wouldn't even exist.
If India invested in R&D of HF-73 and got license of Mirage-2000, then Marut would be filling the ORCA/Rafale class right now and Mirage would be the lightest fighter. Maybe Su-30 would have been bought in limited number to cover the retired Canberra bombers.

If the lost decade for aviation industry could be avoided, India would be flying prototypes of HF-75 AMCA by 2010 only.. There would be no TEDBF as N-AMCA would be ready to replace Naval Maroots by 2020.

Even then if an LCA was needed, it would have been built like FC-1 based on Mig-21 platform that we built and operated in hundreds.
Something like a tailless YE-8 with slightly increased wing-size, would retain its acceleration but greatly increase both STR and ITR, without bleeding too much speed.

 

[Bleh]

Something like a tailless YE-8 with slightly increased wing-size, would retain its acceleration but greatly increase both STR and ITR, without bleeding too much speed.

I made it, just for the kick... And guess who else may have done the exact same thing?