TEDBF or ORCA Updates

[IndianHawk]

Hello, is it a jags thread?................

The discussion got side tracked about when will jags retire .

Anyway. Hal chief has said that prototype of mwf , tedbf and amca all will be flying within 3-4 years .
And tedbf will fly before amca.

We know mwf timeline 2022 first flight .
And amca first flight by 2024-25.
So tedbf first flight should be 2023-24.

 

[Flying Dagger]

IAF had no issue operating older jags for 40 years even with reduced thrust. So it won't give up 12-20 years airframe. It will flog them for atleast 35-40 years .

So you are saying 2045-50 is it confirmed by IAF ?

IAF haven't made any such statement Their official/unofficial statement is, by mid 30s they'll retire the 60 around upgraded ones.

And they aren't upgrading 80 aircraft either only 56 contracted to HAL

They will need engines the current ones are inefficient or Jaguar will never be used to its full potential either.

 

[ARVION]

The discussion got side tracked about when will jags retire .

Anyway. Hal chief has said that prototype of mwf , tedbf and amca all will be flying within 3-4 years .
And tedbf will fly before amca.

We know mwf timeline 2022 first flight .
And amca first flight by 2024-25.
So tedbf first flight should be 2023-24.

Yes by reporte's it looks like within 6 years as quoted in 2019

 

[Assassin 2.0]

 

[Flying Dagger]

Waiting 10+ years and sitting idle will provide the strategic benefit.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Waiting 10+ years and sitting idle will provide the strategic benefit.

jets sanctioned in MMRCA will come immediately?

 

[IndianHawk]

Mirage to rafale evolution.

Similarly tedbf will evolve from mwf design. Just slightly bigger than mwf but far more potent.

This is means most internal components will be same for both and there will be a lot of commonality between two.

 

[piKacHHu]

Kindly go through the comments followed by his tweet. Valid points raised by many people regarding delays and mismatch in projected capabilities v/s real capabilities.

Pointless to compare aircraft which are still on paper with no definite timeline for first flight to the one which is fully operationalised i.e. Rafale. You can't meet exigencies with paper planes.

Kudos for him to take criticism on a positive way; which is very rare trait found among Indians.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Kindly go through the comments followed by his tweet. Valid points raised by many people regarding delays and mismatch in projected capabilities v/s real capabilities.

Pointless to compare aircraft which are still on paper with no definite timeline for first flight to the one which is fully operationalised i.e. Rafale. You can't meet exigencies with paper planes.

Kudos for him to take criticism on a positive way; which is very rare trait found among Indians.

Many countries which had no options to import aircrafts have made local aircraft taking adversary aircraft as benchmark. Why we are talking about delays when HAL ADA is given assurances that they are going to make prototype within given time. It's just basic confidence issues.
India is not comparing rafale with Mk-2 with rafale but it's building it on the benchmark of that jet.
And particularly we have no assurances that made in india rafale or mmrca 2.0 fighter will be delivered without any delays.

 

[piKacHHu]

Many countries which had no options to import aircrafts have made local aircraft taking adversary aircraft as benchmark. Why we are talking about delays when HAL ADA is given assurances that they are going to make prototype within given time. It's just basic confidence issues.
India is not comparing rafale with Mk-2 with rafale but it's building it on the benchmark of that jet.
And particularly we have no assurances that made in india rafale or mmrca 2.0 fighter will be delivered without any delays.

I agree to your point in any other context but here HVT is specifically responding to "Arrival of Rafale...in India " news and comparing them to indigenous aircraft "Under D&D" like MWF, ORCA, AMCA etc. which IMO is not a reasonable argument. For that I can only say, that for Now the Rafale induction could very well provide the Strategic Benefit to IAF vis-a-vis PLAAF & PAF. And none of the aircraft he's mentioned is going to be inducted before 2025.

So, talking about future capabilities is very easy but then you must have to contend with technological leap that would happen in 5-10 years in other platforms as well, they won't sit idle after all.
Obsolescence management would come early if we keep the time line from development-to-deployment far stretched.

 

[Karthi]

jets sanctioned in MMRCA will come immediately?

How many times I said the same thing in this thread but nobody interested in real facts they want fancy logic to entertain themselves . When will we Indians grow up. People are already living in a sixth generation era , they want sixth generation fighter next year to counter Chinese sixth generation which may come atleast in 2040-50 time frame .
I have once asked in a platform What will you call ORCA with DEW as air to air Weapon, ROFAR as sensor with superior EW and cyber capabilities, AI powered flock of Wingman to assist ORCA they called it 4+++ if I say the same configuration for a fancy airframe they may call it Seventh generation .

 

[IndianHawk]

How many times I said the same thing in this thread but nobody interested in real facts they want fancy logic to entertain themselves . When will we Indians grow up. People are already living in a sixth generation era , they want sixth generation fighter next year to counter Chinese sixth generation which may come atleast in 2040-50 time frame .
I have once asked in a platform What will you call ORCA with DEW as air to air Weapon, ROFAR as sensor with superior EW and cyber capabilities, AI powered flock of Wingman to assist ORCA they called it 4+++ if I say the same configuration for a fancy airframe they may call it Seventh generation .

Stealth alone won't be enough it will need meteor type long range missiles too. Because ols type passive sensor will see even stealth aircraft at 150+km in near future.

Su30 ols already is 90km+ ( and that open data actual capability classified).

And with stronger ew suits mwf / tedbf type jets won't be shot down unless they are fired from within NEZ of enemy missile.

No Chinese missile has NEZ greater than 30-40 km and that's including pl15 . Even meteor NEZ is said to be 60km ( maybe much more but still under 100).

So chinese stealth jet can't take down mwf /tedbf unless they come 60-70 km close to fire their longest range missiles . If Chinese get a ramjet missile they will still need to come 100km close atleast to be sure.
And mwf/tedbf/ su30 passive sensors / passive radar modes will see them at 100km++ thus negating stealth.

It's a very complicated game.

 

[ARVION]

Stealth alone won't be enough it will need meteor type long range missiles too. Because ols type passive sensor will see even stealth aircraft at 150+km in near future.

Su30 ols already is 90km+ ( and that open data actual capability classified).

And with stronger ew suits mwf / tedbf type jets won't be shot down unless they are fired from within NEZ of enemy missile.

No Chinese missile has NEZ greater than 30-40 km and that's including pl15 . Even meteor NEZ is said to be 60km ( maybe much more but still under 100).

So chinese stealth jet can't take down mwf /tedbf unless they come 60-70 km close to fire their longest range missiles . If Chinese get a ramjet missile they will still need to come 100km close atleast to be sure.
And mwf/tedbf/ su30 passive sensors / passive radar modes will see them at 100km++ thus negating stealth.

It's a very complicated game.

We need orca as maintaining a large full stealth aircraft's is an extreme costly job's

 

[IndianHawk]

We need orca as maintaining a large full stealth aircraft's is an extreme costly job's

Yup stealth is costly to own and operate. Stealth coating needs reapplication often .

F35 operating costs are 35000 usd per hour.

 

[ARVION]

Yup stealth is costly to own and operate. Stealth coating needs reapplication often .

F35 operating costs are 35000 usd per hour.

Well according to a current emphasis the current scenario the cost per hour for the f 35 may increase due to many factor first is the upgrade from IOC to the foc status which means more complex mission and with the every upgrade the cost would escalate more to a expoltinal cost and to a from 35,000 could be almost to maybe 50,000 to 70,000 per hour they could not ever to replace even half of their fleet with stealth aircrafts unless they are able to reduce it to significant lower operating cost

 

[Anandhu Krishna]

Did the govt approve the development of Orca yet? What is the current status?

 

[ARVION]

Did the govt approve the development of Orca yet? What is the current status?

Yes approved and currently in development's . Correct me if I am wrong's .

 

[Emperor Kalki]

Yes approved and currently in development's . Correct me if I am wrong's .

Actually it was TEDBF that was cleared, that too by ADA, for development......based on the operational requirements laid out by navy to MoD......

 

[ARVION]

Actually it was TEDBF that was cleared, that too by ADA, for development......based on the operational requirements laid out by navy to MoD......

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Suhaan]

Did the govt approve the development of Orca yet? What is the current status?

Nothing on written,TEDBF is on though