TEDBF or ORCA Updates

Flying Dagger

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Nobody knows what will happen 20 years later... Look at Tejas replaceing Mig-21 & Mig-27 both.

We may soon buy new Mig-29s while IAF just declared that Jaguars will not be retired unto 2035, well after Mark2. So, ORCA & AMCA may both replace a number of old Mig-29, Mirage-2000, Jaguars & Su-30.
Do they plan to use RR engines or going for an expensive Honeywell route ?

RR engines are cheaper in comparison available and being produced here for BAE Hawk too. If we can keep 60+ jaguars it will aid immensely to ease off the burden.
 

Flying Dagger

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No such indication.
And the upgrade with AESA radar is stuck with just 2 examples? ( Are we upgrading the rest without engines? )

We must start upgrading if we are serious even if 40 are upgraded in next 2 yrs( if it's possible) it will be huge surplus.
 

Bleh

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And the upgrade with AESA radar is stuck with just 2 examples? ( Are we upgrading the rest without engines? )
Such is thme plan, but not upgrading... Zto be upgraded. 100% future tense. No funds, no official order.

And J-Max jaguar upgradation pack was pretty elaborate, more avionics & weaponary oriented than platform performance.
D1H2nFPVAAIFWa1.jpeg
D1H3wksV4AA8N-s.jpeg

D1H4fusUYAIY3Eb.jpeg


...But just like the new T-72 upgradation package I don't think it will ever see installation.
 

Flying Dagger

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Such is thme plan, but not upgrading... Zto be upgraded. 100% future tense. No funds, no official order.

And J-Max jaguar upgradation pack was pretty elaborate, more avionics & weaponary oriented than platform performance.
D1H2nFPVAAIFWa1.jpeg
D1H3wksV4AA8N-s.jpeg

D1H4fusUYAIY3Eb.jpeg


...But just like the new T-72 upgradation package I don't think it will ever see installation.
I feel the same the way IAF is playing around it for over a decade, it seems they wish to use it just to increase flying hours for the pilots. Atleast 1 or 2 Jaguar were AESA ready though I wonder what they are doing.
 

IndianHawk

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And the upgrade with AESA radar is stuck with just 2 examples? ( Are we upgrading the rest without engines? )

We must start upgrading if we are serious even if 40 are upgraded in next 2 yrs( if it's possible) it will be huge surplus.
Aesa radar is for Darin 3 upgrade . All Jaguars of Darin 1 batch are being upgraded to Darin 3.
 

IndianHawk

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Do they plan to use RR engines or going for an expensive Honeywell route ?

RR engines are cheaper in comparison available and being produced here for BAE Hawk too. If we can keep 60+ jaguars it will aid immensely to ease off the burden.
We build 37 jags during 2000-2008. They will remain in service till 2040-45.
 

IndianHawk

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Such is thme plan, but not upgrading... Zto be upgraded. 100% future tense. No funds, no official order.

And J-Max jaguar upgradation pack was pretty elaborate, more avionics & weaponary oriented than platform performance.
D1H2nFPVAAIFWa1.jpeg
D1H3wksV4AA8N-s.jpeg

D1H4fusUYAIY3Eb.jpeg


...But just like the new T-72 upgradation package I don't think it will ever see installation.
Jaguars max concept is different from Darin 3 upgrade which is ongoing with aesa upgrade.

Also engine upgrade is separate from both of them.
 

aditya10r

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We build 37 jags during 2000-2008. They will remain in service till 2040-45.
Even though jaguar can serve well into 30s I think we shouldn't be dragging them that far.It is still very much a ground attack Aircraft and nearly zero a2a capability so it is very much defenceless against a well poised MRCA Aircraft with missiles.

Provided MK2 MWF will be available by 2030,we shouldn't waste one day to replace them thereafter.These jets served us well,will continue to do so but it's limited capability in other areas hampers is future potential.Mk2 MWF is the perfect successor to Mirage 2000,Mig-29 and Jaguar.All of them should be replaced by mid 2030s.

Sidenote:So far I have seen Tejas with only bombs for a2g roles.It will be really nice if we integrate rockets and A2g missiles like the Maverick and the kedge to it.
 

Bhumihar

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Even though jaguar can serve well into 30s I think we shouldn't be dragging them that far.It is still very much a ground attack Aircraft and nearly zero a2a capability so it is very much defenceless against a well poised MRCA Aircraft with missiles.
I am hoping Tejas would take over the role of mig 21.
2 Astra+2 derby+2 Drop tank+LTP will be ideal configuration for Aerial combat.
 

aditya10r

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I am hoping Tejas would take over the role of mig 21.
2 Astra+2 derby+2 Drop tank+LTP will be ideal configuration for Aerial combat.
Well that's its intended role.
It can have 4 BVR AAM on 2 dual ejector pylon 2 WVR AAM 2-3 drop tanks and 1 EW pod.This is for mk1 and mk1a,MK2 MWF will exceed in every parameter.
 

Flying Dagger

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We build 37 jags during 2000-2008. They will remain in service till 2040-45.
40-45 is too much for a Jaguar I doubt it's use beyond providing flying hours even if it is retained that long. They'll be retired by 35 as per IAF . What is your source for 2045 timeline.

Darin 3 or MAX are essentially the upgrade package and are same but new marketing tool. Just go through it engine upgrade is also part of MAX ( optional offcourse) while AESA radar is part of the package too. MAX is overall picture that includes Darin 3.

In 2019 56 Aircrafts were to be upgraded from 2020 -24 period by HAL with no engine upgrade and to be retired by 2035. There was no mention of 2045 timeline.The rest will be retired and use for spare parts etc.
 

IndianHawk

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Even though jaguar can serve well into 30s I think we shouldn't be dragging them that far.It is still very much a ground attack Aircraft and nearly zero a2a capability so it is very much defenceless against a well poised MRCA Aircraft with missiles.

Provided MK2 MWF will be available by 2030,we shouldn't waste one day to replace them thereafter.These jets served us well,will continue to do so but it's limited capability in other areas hampers is future potential.Mk2 MWF is the perfect successor to Mirage 2000,Mig-29 and Jaguar.All of them should be replaced by mid 2030s.

Sidenote:So far I have seen Tejas with only bombs for a2g roles.It will be really nice if we integrate rockets and A2g missiles like the Maverick and the kedge to it.
40-45 is too much for a Jaguar I doubt it's use beyond providing flying hours even if it is retained that long. They'll be retired by 35 as per IAF . What is your source for 2045 timeline.

Darin 3 or MAX are essentially the upgrade package and are same but new marketing tool. Just go through it engine upgrade is also part of MAX ( optional offcourse) while AESA radar is part of the package too. MAX is overall picture that includes Darin 3.

In 2019 56 Aircrafts were to be upgraded from 2020 -24 period by HAL with no engine upgrade and to be retired by 2035. There was no mention of 2045 timeline.The rest will be retired and use for spare parts etc.
We don't throw usable airframes away.
Older Jaguars build in 80s are serving right now 40 years later. Mirage of 80s still serving .

So why won't Jaguars build fresh in 2000-2008 will serve 40 years?? Even if we phase them out early they will still serve 30-35 years. Hence 2040 -45 timeline.

Now regarding capability . The jags are now getting aesa with derby for self defense and they have extensive ew suite to protect themselves.

With derby they will have capability to force enemy jets to be 60-70 km away and hence they will be safe from enemy missile nez.

Also jags will be used to deliver precision standoff weaponry from distance so they will remain safe and relevant. They will use saaw / NGARM / lgb etc.

If we get adequate numbers of mwf / rafale on time we might see early retirement for those jags by 2035 but they will still be in reserve.

Enemy will have to calculate their impact in his war plan and against Pakistan once we attain air superiority jags can bomb freely. Even against china border is huge and poorly defended jags can exploit gaps flying low in valleys and can strike deep.

Do not underestimate jags . Chinese themselves operate lots of jh7 which are worse then jaguar tech wise with zero self defense.
 

IndianHawk

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In 2019 56 Aircrafts were to be upgraded from 2020 -24 period by HAL with no engine upgrade and to be retired by 2035. There was no mention of 2045 timeline.The rest will be retired and use for spare parts etc.
80 were to be upgraded out of 116 iirc. Darin 3 is going on regardless of max or new engines.
 

Flying Dagger

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80 were to be upgraded out of 116 iirc. Darin 3 is going on regardless of max or new engines.
That was the original plan but later changed to 56 by 2024 ( whether it include the 2 example or not can't say )


You can check it here too.

I asked you for an official source of 2045 timeline which you have mentioned. If IAF says 2045 then they'll definitely use them till that time.

We junked lots of Marut for want of engine before despite new airframes.

Even Mig 21 which are retired are in semiactive state and will be used if required so it's not like they'll be trashed immediately.

To use it with full potential engine upgrade is needed and the question is whether do they have any plan for that or not.
 

IndianHawk

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That was the original plan but later changed to 56 by 2024 ( whether it include the 2 example or not can't say )


You can check it here too.

I asked you for an official source of 2045 timeline which you have mentioned. If IAF says 2045 then they'll definitely use them till that time.

We junked lots of Marut for want of engine before despite new airframes.

Even Mig 21 which are retired are in semiactive state and will be used if required so it's not like they'll be trashed immediately.

To use it with full potential engine upgrade is needed and the question is whether do they have any plan for that or not.
Engine performance of jags degrade after heavy usage. It's not that much of a problem for new jets with new low used engine of last batches.
 

Flying Dagger

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Engine performance of jags degrade after heavy usage. It's not that much of a problem for new jets with new low used engine of last batches.
Even the Newer ones are atleast 12-20 years old and thrust is reduced. The older ones barely fly at 15-16 kn dry thrust for others also it is 18-20 if not lesser. IAF said no to replacement engines as even then the thrust would be lower than required.

And HAL is working on wet thrust for its HTFE 25 that means they are planning to replace Jaguar engine with it . It's a may be, not confirm but it might be the way IAF will go forward .
 

IndianHawk

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Even the Newer ones are atleast 12-20 years old and thrust is reduced. The older ones barely fly at 15-16 kn dry thrust for others also it is 18-20 if not lesser. IAF said no to replacement engines as even then the thrust would be lower than required.

And HAL is working on wet thrust for its HTFE 25 that means they are planning to replace Jaguar engine with it . It's a may be, not confirm but it might be the way IAF will go forward .
IAF had no issue operating older jags for 40 years even with reduced thrust. So it won't give up 12-20 years airframe. It will flog them for atleast 35-40 years .
 

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