TEDBF or ORCA Updates

[IndianHawk]

Which is a good thing, but still feel those 72 Rafales are critical to the mix, and ideally we should have kick-started the order several years earlier and had 2-3 squadrons ready by now

If we had 3 SQof rafale already we'll just go forward to buying more rafale. And rafale m for navy would come too. Tedbf would not be born then.

So it's a good thing in long-run that we didn't buy more rafale already.

 

[IndianHawk]

Also ball is now in mbda court. If they still refuse to integrate meteor to lca varients . They are missing out on a market twice as big as french airforce.

 

[porky_kicker]

India to build a homegrown Super Hornet with stealth features...

www.snafu-solomon.com

See western aholes talking trash using dubious data

Lol LCA started in 1960s , why stop there it started in 1AD

And as usual as if on notice

A so called singh trying his best to lick white ass .

Idiot doesn't know even know LCA MK2 tenders are out , dhanush is operational etc and yet acts the proverbial court jester

 

[Alfalfa]

If we had 3 SQof rafale already we'll just go forward to buying more rafale. And rafale m for navy would come too. Tedbf would not be born then.

So it's a good thing in long-run that we didn't buy more rafale already.

Fact is, we couldnt afford any more Rafales at the ridiculous prices they were coming at....

 

[IndianHawk]

India to build a homegrown Super Hornet with stealth features...

www.snafu-solomon.com

See western aholes talking trash using dubious data

Lol LCA started in 1960s , why stop there it started in 1AD

And as usual as if on notice

A so called singh trying his best to lick white ass .

Idiot doesn't know even know LCA MK2 tenders are out , dhanush is operational etc and yet acts the proverbial court jester

It's good that they keep underestimating us. If they recognize our real scientific capability they will start considering us a threat worst then china.

We must use this low profile situation to gorge up as much as western technology as we can .

 

[IndianHawk]

Fact is, we couldnt afford any more Rafales at the ridiculous prices they were coming at....

That's true. But it's not just rafale . Eurofighter was equally costly. And even f16 and gripen E would cost upto 150 million each with infrastructure and spares.

 

[Tang]

1. If the Navy is looking to buy only 50/70 jets, then the development of a heavy-medium class jet akin to SH will not be feasible R&D wise.

Why would it be a burn on R&D and production cost when we have already 200+ variants of LCA in the making; Avionics are same as MWF, Radar is same, fuselage is 80% same, Engine is same too.

 

[Bleh]

fuselage is 80% same,

Nope! Longer & fatter fuselage, atleast 50% larger wing-size, greater wingspan, folding wings, almost double weight/payload of MWF... extensive aerodynamic readjustments for a drastically modified platform.
Simply too much design work to be done for only 3-4 naval squadrons.

For the other reasons I gave it a 1:9 chance to be standalone without aby ORCA. That happening aint impossible, but highly unlikely.

 

[Tang]

Nope! Longer & fatter fuselage, atleast 50% larger wing-size, greater wingspan, folding wings, almost double weight/payload of MWF... extensive aerodynamic readjustments for a drastically modified platform.
Simply too much design work to be done for only 3-4 naval squadrons.

For the other reasons I gave it a 1:9 chance to be standalone without aby ORCA. That happening aint impossible, but highly unlikely.

Yeah I agree IAF could easily use Twin Engine MCA but isn't ADA, HAL on govt. payroll, they will get their salary even when their is no work. So Design work logic will not work.

 

[Bleh]

Isn't ADA, HAL on govt. payroll, they will get their salary even when their is no work. So Design work logic will not work.

My friend, no offence but I think you have very VERY dire misconceptions about how designing happens... They don't design in spare time, every workhour is precious & has to be properly managed. Neither we have enough funds in our R&D nor manpower, there is always something else that could use the effort.
The designing of TEDBF is going to need more than 2 billion dollars, 40% more than whole Tejas fund in last 30 years combined!.. Excluding assembly lime modification, prototype building, flight testing, data processing etc. You don't spend that sort of money for 2 aircraft carrier worth of jets.

IAF's non committal attitude was being discussed as the reason holding back its fund release, which is very likely what was addressed in this ADA annual meet. Reading this will help clear things up:

TEDBF/ORCA: Who will fund $2 Billion ?, while IAF remains Non-Committal – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

 

[Yatharth Singh]

Nope! Longer & fatter fuselage, atleast 50% larger wing-size, greater wingspan, folding wings, almost double weight/payload of MWF... extensive aerodynamic readjustments for a drastically modified platform.
Simply too much design work to be done for only 3-4 naval squadrons.

For the other reasons I gave it a 1:9 chance to be standalone without aby ORCA. That happening aint impossible, but highly unlikely.

Larger wing size and span is alright but 50% larger is too much. Wing area of Tejas Mk1 is closer to that of AMCA already. Yes there will be an increase but not that much.

 

[Karthi]

Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) has been given go head by the Ministry of Defence (MOD) to start work on New Twin Engined Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF) jet as per latest media reports and as per information provided to idrw.org, Senior officials from both Indian Air Force (IAF) and Indian Navy (IN) were present at the meeting and both have agreed to commit 150 jets jointly before the MOD agreed to give Go head clearance for the New ADA project. While actual numbers of a jet produced might vary since the jet in question is at least 10 years away from entering production. MOD needed a number before another fighter jet program could have got a clearance and as per information provided to idrw.org, the Navy has agreed to procure a minimum of 100 jets for its Carrier-based operations and IAF is willing to commit to procuring 50 jets if the jet meets its Operational requirements. Navy and ADA will head the TEDBF program and most of the orders will come from the Navy, while IAF will be back seat driver in the program. Navy has decided that it now abandon its plans to acquire 57 new carrier-based fighter jets from foreign vendors and instead will buy TEDBF when it’s ready for production from 2030 onwards. IN also plans to replace its current Mig-29k fleet with TEDBF from 2035-40 onwards.


IAF version of TEDBF called Omni Role Combat Aircraft (ORCA), will be the same aircraft minus TEDBF’s landing gears, Tailhook, foldable wings some Navy instruments, and electronics. ORCA will also be lighter by 1.5tonnes due to lighter mid and rear fuselage section but there won’t be any major design changes in IAF’s version but it will be identical in terms of design, features, and performance if the project gets a go-head by IAF. The development of ORCA might not be done parallelly but only once TEDBF Prototype is available for testing and evaluation purposes for IAF. IAF has given fully backing Tejas Mk2 and AMCA program and already has committed to procure 100 aircraft types each. Initially, IAF had agreed to procure 200 Tejas Mk2 jet but later curtailed it to 100 jets, which many see was possibly done to make room for ORCA in near future But people close to idrw.org believe that ultimately it will come down to Operational capabilities and cost at the end since both Tejas Mk2 and ORCA will have same avionics, Radar, electronics and engines, it will depend on which of the two will emerge as better aircraft at the end because Tejas Mk2 won’t enter production till 2028 and TEDBF will be ready in 2026, IAF will be a good position to decide on procurement of ORCA by then or continue procurement of Tejas Mk2 beyond 100 jets which already has been committed.

idrw.org .Read more at India No 1 Defence News Website http://idrw.org/tedbf-navy-and-air-force-might-have-agreed-to-commit-150-jets/ .

 

[Alfalfa]

My friend, no offence but I think you have very VERY dire misconceptions about how designing happens... They don't design in spare time, every workhour is precious & has to be properly managed. Neither we have enough funds in our R&D nor manpower, there is always something else that could use the effort.
The designing of TEDBF is going to need more than 2 billion dollars, 40% more than whole Tejas fund in last 30 years combined!.. Excluding assembly lime modification, prototype building, flight testing, data processing etc. You don't spend that sort of money for 2 aircraft carrier worth of jets.

IAF's non committal attitude was being discussed as the reason holding back its fund release, which is very likely what was addressed in this ADA annual meet. Reading this will help clear things up:

TEDBF/ORCA: Who will fund $2 Billion ?, while IAF remains Non-Committal – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

Is there a reliable source for the $2Bn figure? The entire Tejas program has used $1Bn. to date... considering the synergies between the LCA and this platform, I doubt the 2 Bn Dollar figure

 

[Bleh]

Larger wing size and span is alright but 50% larger is too much. Wing area of Tejas Mk1 is closer to that of AMCA already. Yes there will be an increase but not that much.

You shouldn't just say "but not that much" without measuring atleast the official renders.

I made some fanarts (see pages 5 to 15, not to blow my own horn but they're pretty awesome ) where I used LCA Navy Mark2 as base... Comparing its already widened fuselages width with the official renders released, i determined each wing to be 1.5 times wider, that is 50% increment on each side.

My intial incorrect one. Just shoved another engine in there because the width fits another F414 perfectly.

Compare the wingspan & fuselage on correct one.

Maintaining that width ratio wingfp-area is much larger than AMCA's!! (AMCA has small Wings because it increases stealth, see AMCA thread for details)

Is there a reliable source for the $2Bn figure? The entire Tejas program has used $1Bn. to date... considering the synergies between the LCA and this platform, I doubt the 2 Bn Dollar figure

Your doubt is based on no source. I have a source. IRDW is moderately trustworthy. It is better than nothing. Ada has officially asked for that money.


I don't have deep knowledge on what sort of money could be required, or be considered fair. I would rather not comment.

 

[Suryavanshi]

Is there a reliable source for the $2Bn figure? The entire Tejas program has used $1Bn. to date... considering the synergies between the LCA and this platform, I doubt the 2 Bn Dollar figure

2 billion over the period of Six years is still just 300 million per year. This will probably constitute the cost of First few prototypes and Subsystems. I think this is reasonable Pricing.

 

[Suryavanshi]

What do U guys think who will be the lead system integrator of this project, HAL or someone else?
By the time of 2026 some new Aerospace company may show up.

 

[IndianHawk]

Is there a reliable source for the $2Bn figure? The entire Tejas program has used $1Bn. to date... considering the synergies between the LCA and this platform, I doubt the 2 Bn Dollar figure

Inflation and speed means more money needs to be invested now.

 

[WolfPack86]

TEDBF: Navy and Air Force might have agreed to commit 150 jets

Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) has been given go head by the Ministry of Defence (MOD) to start work on New Twin Engined Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF) jet as per latest media reports and as per information provided to idrw.org, Senior officials from both Indian Air Force (IAF) and Indian Navy (IN) were present at the meeting and both have agreed to commit 150 jets jointly before the MOD agreed to give Go head clearance for the New ADA project. While actual numbers of a jet produced might vary since the jet in question is at least 10 years away from entering production. MOD needed a number before another fighter jet program could have got a clearance and as per information provided to idrw.org, the Navy has agreed to procure a minimum of 100 jets for its Carrier-based operations and IAF is willing to commit to procuring 50 jets if the jet meets its Operational requirements. Navy and ADA will head the TEDBF program and most of the orders will come from the Navy, while IAF will be back seat driver in the program. Navy has decided that it now abandon its plans to acquire 57 new carrier-based fighter jets from foreign vendors and instead will buy TEDBF when it’s ready for production from 2030 onwards. IN also plans to replace its current Mig-29k fleet with TEDBF from 2035-40 onwards. IAF version of TEDBF called Omni Role Combat Aircraft (ORCA), will be the same aircraft minus TEDBF’s landing gears, Tailhook, foldable wings some Navy instruments, and electronics. ORCA will also be lighter by 1.5tonnes due to lighter mid and rear fuselage section but there won’t be any major design changes in IAF’s version but it will be identical in terms of design, features, and performance if the project gets a go-head by IAF. The development of ORCA might not be done parallelly but only once TEDBF Prototype is available for testing and evaluation purposes for IAF. IAF has given fully backing Tejas Mk2 and AMCA program and already has committed to procure 100 aircraft types each. Initially, IAF had agreed to procure 200 Tejas Mk2 jet but later curtailed it to 100 jets, which many see was possibly done to make room for ORCA in near future But people close to idrw.org believe that ultimately it will come down to Operational capabilities and cost at the end since both Tejas Mk2 and ORCA will have same avionics, Radar, electronics and engines, it will depend on which of the two will emerge as better aircraft at the end because Tejas Mk2 won’t enter production till 2028 and TEDBF will be ready in 2026, IAF will be a good position to decide on procurement of ORCA by then or continue procurement of Tejas Mk2 beyond 100 jets which already has been committed.

TEDBF: Navy and Air Force might have agreed to commit 150 jets – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

 

[IndianHawk]

What do U guys think who will be the lead system integrator of this project, HAL or someone else?
By the time of 2026 some new Aerospace company may show up.

Tata could step up most probably. It is already building lots of components for boing Lockheed as well as lca program.

Tedbf and amca would be produced almost parallerly. And mwf will be produced in the same time frame too.

 

[Yatharth Singh]

You shouldn't just say "but not that much" without measuring atleast the official renders.

I made some fanarts (see pages 5 to 15, not to blow my own horn but they're pretty awesome ) where I used LCA Navy Mark2 as base... Comparing its already widened fuselages width with the official renders released, i determined each wing to be 1.5 times wider, that is 50% increment on each side.

My intial incorrect one. Just shoved another engine in there because the width fits another F414 perfectly.

Compare the wingspan & fuselage on correct one.

Maintaining that width ratio wingfp-area is much larger than AMCA's!! (AMCA has small Wings because it increases stealth, see AMCA thread for details)

Nice fan arts. First of all clearing misconceptions regarding AMCA then its wing area has nothing to do with enhanced stealth. F-22 has a wing area of 78 sq. metre, almost double than that will be of AMCA's 40 sq. mtr. However, F-22 is a heavy category fighter whereas AMCA is a Medium category but then so will be TEDBF.

As far as the renders are concerned then it is still not confirmed whether TEDBF will feature a Delta wing design or not. Everything is at wind tunnel testing stage as of now with all options being considered. Further Rafale has a wing area of 45 sq. mtr. given its additional surface area of wing and canards. F-18 has a wing area of 38 sq mtr. similar to that of Tejas Mk.1 that is 38.4 sq mtr.

Now you are saying that it has 50% larger wing than Tejas mk.1 which makes TEDBF's total wing area at 57 sq mtr., a little smaller than Su-30 mki's 62 sq mtr. and that is "too much" even after assuming that it will have a delta wing with canards and tails and to accommodate such a huge wing area the size has to be increased which will render the available twin GE powerplants useless thus generating insufficient thrust. Also, Navy's current Mig 29 has a wing area of 42 sq mtr.

I hope now you understand why I said "but not that much".