TEDBF or ORCA Updates

[aditya10r]

Those are challenges that may be overcome in future decades... with larger carriers, new material & RAM technology, stealthy missiles & external pods & drop tanks. Who can say, right?

And rack up bill taller than Mount everest.
Great plan YANKS

 

[IndianHawk]

We also have heli buisness going on.
Optimize LUH for Civilian purpose.
HCH in the future.
SeaHawk like platform for the Navy.
IMRH for militray and civilian purpose.

God I love this.

Once imrh is ready . Apache and mh60 type helis will be derived from it . Just like lch was derived from alh dhruv.

 

[Bleh]

And rack up bill taller than Mount everest.
Great plan YANKS

I thought that abut 5-6th gen once too, but the way F-35 is going prices might actually get down below $100mil someday... If it does then only.

Personally I think making Bramhos-3, external pods & drop tanks as stealthy as possible is a mandatory next step for the future fighter generations.
Larger CATOBAR carrier will probably also be on the agenda by 2040 as you said yourself.

3rd carrier will also come.Definetly in 2nd half of 2030.

 

[Suryavanshi]

And rack up bill taller than Mount everest.
Great plan YANKS

It is rumoured that F35 is just a scapegoat for funding US militray black project.
A levitating aircraft that uses earths magnetic field to fly.

 

[rohit b3]

Its time someone should make a Wiki page on the same.

 

[Bleh]

Its time someone should make a Wiki page on the same.

We got nothing on this yet... Just some concept arts.

Now that the project is officia, I'm expecting a 8:1 scale model of the preliminary design & a spec sheet in Aero India 2021. Until then a wiki page will just have some semi-confirmed news updates.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

Any expected timeline for RTA-70/90 project?

 

[fire starter]

Any expected timeline for RTA-70/90 project?

let them develop saras mk 2 first for which approval has been given then only RTA program will be sanctioned.

 

[aerokan]

It is rumoured that F35 is just a scapegoat for funding US militray black project.
A levitating aircraft that uses earths magnetic field to fly.

Good. waiting to see the new types. To be honest, our current set of designers are just trying to catch up to others and lacking any new design thought process. We are abandoning the curved wing design of LCA in AMCA and following in line with rest of the world who see LCA as a simple delta. All we are obsessed now is with Rafale and it's equivalents. Hopefully the designers of TEDBF remember the curved wing of LCA and think of stepping up it's design to advance the wing structure to pave way for 6th/7th gen flexible wing structures.

We can make stealth planes design non-stealth on the radar by putting a lot of weapons outside but we cannot make a non-stealth plane into stealth when you drop all the outer weapons. So i would prefer AMCA to grow a pair and take the role of stealth and non-stealth as well. If we want to reduce operational costs.. we can always not paint RCS reduction and let the enemy's catch your RCS at full weapons load. Short wings of AMCA are not great for naval operations but if the designers are innovative, they would be able to get to solve it. All it took me is 10 mins to think about and come to a completely different solution to the payload, takeoff/landing issues without making any modifications to any of the fighters. I think regular designers can do better but a paradigm shift is needed in thinking. Old ways are not sufficient enough to become a leader.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

Any expected timeline for RTA-70/90 project?

If we buy Embrear then we don't need to waste money on this. Plus we get to do production and do sales even in Western markets. They are already certified there.

 

[Yatharth Singh]

TEDBF just went official. ADA has been given a go ahead for development. Expected by 2026.
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/new...r-development-first-flight-in-6-years-2240666

 

[Yatharth Singh]

Request the admin to shift this thread to Indian Navy since TEDBF is a naval program and ORCA is not official.

 

[porky_kicker]

Request the admin to shift this thread to Indian Navy since TEDBF is a naval program and ORCA is not official.

Why do you think IAF was part of the discussions on TEDBF along with DM , ADA and navy ?

 

[Longewala]

It's all becoming clear now. MMRCA is dead.
36 original rafale will come by 2022.
36 more will come from 2025-28. ( Ordered in 2022 ).
Mwf inducted from 2026 ....
Then tedbf and orca will follow from 2030.
Amca mk1 starts induction from 2030 ....
Amca mk2 induction 2035.....
And then AMCA mk3...and next gen Indian jets. ..

Foreign jet import is over after rafale.

Which is a good thing, but still feel those 72 Rafales are critical to the mix, and ideally we should have kick-started the order several years earlier and had 2-3 squadrons ready by now

 

[Yatharth Singh]

Why do you think IAF was part of the discussions on TEDBF along with DM , ADA and navy ?

I was not there in the meeting and neither were you. Nor did the news quote anywhere about IAF. But even if it's representation was there, still TEDBF is a purely naval program just like N-LCA.

 

[Bleh]

I was not there in the meeting and neither were you. Nor did the news quote anywhere about IAF.

You know, you should first read the article you shared... (Read the preceding page's posts too while you're at it. )

TEDBF just went official. ADA has been given a go ahead for development. Expected by 2026.
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/new...r-development-first-flight-in-6-years-2240666

ADA's Annual General Body meet was chaired by Defence Minister Rajnath Singh and was attended by the Navy and Air Force Chiefs.
There is no TEDBF without ORCA. Can't develop a tailor-made jet for less than 100 orders by Navy. And it's simply wiser to developed Naval version first, like Rafale, because other way around is much more complicated.

All discussed in the few pages before they will find everything there. Otherwise same point just gets repeated.

 

[Yatharth Singh]

You know, you should first read the article you shared... (Read the preceding page's posts too while you're at it. )



ADA's Annual General Body meet was chaired by Defence Minister Rajnath Singh and was attended by the Navy and Air Force Chiefs.
There is no TEDBF without ORCA. Can't develop a tailor-made jet for less than 100 orders by Navy. And it's simply wiser to developed Naval version first, like Rafale, because other way around is much more complicated.

All discussed in the few pages before they will find everything there. Otherwise same point just gets repeated.

I have no intention of getting into an unnecessary spat with you. You believe ORCA is live then good for you. But don't live in this misconception that without ORCA there is no TEDBF.

 

[Bleh]

But don't live in this misconception that without ORCA there is no TEDBF.

I have only had NO reason (nor were you able to present any) to conclude that it is a misconception, knowing how R&D cost works vis-a-vis production numbers... I would say there's a slim 10-15% chance of what you say happening, ie, no ORCA only TEDBF.

I remember even a few weeks ago this thread was full of "experienced expert" declaring how TEDBF is doomed to be a wet dream forever & will never get sanctioned. They all are now comfortable at the club of people I have out-predicted, got lots of room in there!
Don't stick to anything unless you've good (& practically possible) reason.

 

[Yatharth Singh]

I have only had to reason (nor have been able to present any) to conclude that it is a misconception, knowing how R&D cost works vis-a-vis production numbers... I would say there's a slim 10-15% chance of what you say happening, ie, no ORCA, only TEDBF.

I remember even a few weeks ago this thread was full of "experienced expert" declaring how TEDBF is doomed to be a wet dream forever & will never get sanctioned.
They all are now comfortable at the club of people I have out-predicted, got lots of room in there.

I was definitely not one of them. Many of those people about whom you are talking also said that Navy will go for Tejas Mk2 and TEDBF is absurd. At that time I presented the same ratio citing which Navy has outrightly rejected Tejas Mk2 and going for TEDBF. See I'm not denying ORCA outrightly. What I'm saying is TEDBF or ORCA has to be a new Aircraft all together. Although Tejas experience will help immensely but still it is a new design. As of today, there is not even a finalized design of TEDBF. Expected first flight is 2026 and induction by 2030. Everyone knows how good are Mig-29K and it's maintenance. It was just a stop gap measure for N-LCA which ofcourse will never see light of day for obvious reasons. And also because navy has no other option. Imports at this stage will drill a big hole in pockets and even if imports are allowed still the timeline would have been more or less similar give or take 2-3 years. Air Force on the other hand has no such immediate requirement of OCRA. It may, however, after being impressed by its performance, ask ADA to modify TEDBF for AF operations to supplement Rafale in terms of numbers and to curb imports but same cannot be expected to happen in this decade.

 

[Bleh]

See I'm not denying ORCA outrightly. What I'm saying is TEDBF or ORCA has to be a new Aircraft all together. Although Tejas experience will help immensely but still it is a new design. As of today, there is not even a finalized design of TEDBF. Expected first flight is 2026 and induction by 2030. Everyone knows how good are Mig-29K and it's maintenance. It was just a stop gap measure for N-LCA which ofcourse will never see light of day for obvious reasons. And also because navy has no other option. Imports at this stage will drill a big hole in pockets and even if imports are allowed still the timeline would have been more or less similar give or take 2-3 years. Air Force on the other hand has no such immediate requirement of OCRA. It may, however, after being impressed by its performance, ask ADA to modify TEDBF for AF operations to supplement Rafale in terms of numbers and to curb imports but same cannot be expected to happen in this decade.

Now these very well presented & valid points. But I've been through them too, still 30:70 chance.

My logic was:

1. If the Navy is looking to buy only 50/70 jets, then the development of a heavy-medium class jet akin to SH will not be feasible R&D wise.
2. Also I drew reference from Rafale itself, for whom the naval version was developed & tested first, then it was toned down (much more easily than vice-versa) to create an Airforce version.
3. Airforce will be needing a Rafale class jet after the 36 +something order ends by 2028-29. Who knows what's gonna happen to MMRCA.2 & just 2 sqdns of Rafale won't do. ORCA will be only prudent option (availability not an issue, downsizing the undercarriage & landing-gears can happen simultaneously to FOC).