TEDBF or ORCA Updates

[Karthi]

I don't see why the Navy wants to waste time and treasure on the TEDBF, this is a classic stall tactic for nothing. We won't have anything for another decade, no new carrier, no new aircraft, no new money. Why waste time on such endeavours when a Rafale Mk-4 would suffice if they want a twin engine deck based fighter with canards.

Navy seems to be going down the IAF and IA road. This disease of do nothing, take shitty decisions, dump on ongoing local projects while always changing needs has now become a habit.

Absolute lack of focus. The services are worse than my 3 year old who can be quite clear and articulate on she wants.

Own knife is better than someone else's sword

 

[Immanuel]

Own knife is better than someone else's sword

Own knife is better than someone else's sword when we talk about a sword fighting era. At this point we are still screwing too much with the core LCA program diverting into different spin-offs. We can't work on Spinoffs when we are still not used to mass producing the basic version. Before we learn to screw, we must learn how to manage an erection, we must learn to masturbate.

Focus on LCA Mk-1, MK-1A, get MK-2 ready in time for testing (a lot of changes, expect 5 year test phase). Deliver 83 MK-1A in time (refine manufacturing process all along), switch production to LCA MK-2 (IAF needs to order them in time). Avoid idle production at all costs. Ramp-up production on confirmed orders, if we can't produce/deliver cater to 36 fighters per annum, we aren't worthy of being an aircraft producing country.

40 MK-1

83 MK-1A (1st flight 2022) at 16 aircraft per year, 1st squadron by 2024, Production completed by 2027 at this rate. (Total LCA mk1/1A = 7 Squadrons), increase production in case of Exports to at least 24. It should be fairly easy to export the MK-1A to Sri-Lanka, Afghan and other small nations.

MK-2 first flight 2023: Complete all testing by 2027 (order at least 126 around 2025 so production can start on time, increase production capacity from 2027 to at least 36)
Switch Production: 2027 onwards deliver at least 1.5 Squadron (27) to IAF while the rest to exports (atleast 6 per year). Deliver last MK-2 to IAF 2031-2032.

I repeat to add a 4.5 gen aircraft in 2035 6th gen timelines is a shitty idea. At the very least they should be working early on a Naval AMCA. If Navy can' get onboard the LCA MK-2 train, fuck em. Actually LCA MK-2 was always a naval initiative to begin with.

 

[Karthi]

Own knife is better than someone else's sword when we talk about a sword fighting era. At this point we are still screwing too much with the core LCA program diverting into different spin-offs. We can't work on Spinoffs when we are still not used to mass producing the basic version. Before we learn to screw, we must learn how to manage an erection, we must learn to masturbate.

Focus on LCA Mk-1, MK-1A, get MK-2 ready in time for testing (a lot of changes, expect 5 year test phase). Deliver 83 MK-1A in time (refine manufacturing process all along), switch production to LCA MK-2 (IAF needs to order them in time). Avoid idle production at all costs. Ramp-up production on confirmed orders, if we can't produce/deliver cater to 36 fighters per annum, we aren't worthy of being an aircraft producing country.

40 MK-1

83 MK-1A (1st flight 2022) at 16 aircraft per year, 1st squadron by 2024, Production completed by 2027 at this rate. (Total LCA mk1/1A = 7 Squadrons), increase production in case of Exports to at least 24. It should be fairly easy to export the MK-1A to Sri-Lanka, Afghan and other small nations.

MK-2 first flight 2023: Complete all testing by 2027 (order at least 126 around 2025 so production can start on time, increase production capacity from 2027 to at least 36)
Switch Production: 2027 onwards deliver at least 1.5 Squadron (27) to IAF while the rest to exports (atleast 6 per year). Deliver last MK-2 to IAF 2031-2032.

I repeat to add a 4.5 gen aircraft in 2035 6th gen timelines is a shitty idea. At the very least they should be working early on a Naval AMCA. If Navy can' get onboard the LCA MK-2 train, fuck em. Actually LCA MK-2 was always a naval initiative to begin with.

If that's your idea I don't want anything to say . I won't think any sixth generation fighter will come in 2035 , sixth generation will be available only in 2050 onwards .

Moreover ORCA can be upgraded to fifth generation or sixth generation , if you think Only a fancy design can be advanced then what to do.

Here is the comment of French Airforce deputy . Rafale will stay upto 2070

 

[Immanuel]

If that's your idea I don't want anything to say . I won't think any sixth generation fighter will come in 2035 , sixth generation will be available only in 2050 onwards .

Moreover ORCA can be upgraded to fifth generation or sixth generation , if you think Only a fancy design can be advanced then what to do.


View attachment 46170


Here is the comment of French Airforce deputy . Rafale will stay upto 2070

6th gen fighters will be fielded by the USAF around 2035 and they will replace the oldest F-15s, F-22s at that point, early work has already begun. Programs already exist. While France, Russians, pretty much everybody else are a lot slower to get on with such ambitions. F-35 which replaces the F-16, F-18 and eventually early block 2 SHs will operate till 2070 as well but you can be sure USAF will set the timeline. The least we can do is to have only 5th gen aircraft being inducted after LCA certainly after the 2030 timelines The timeline to induct 4.5 aircraft was in early 2010s, as time moves on 4.5 gen aircraft become less relevant. Keep in mind by then the Chinks will have a large fleet of shitty but Low rcs so called 5th gen fighters.

 

[Bleh]

And J20 has huge canards to increase rcs which no other stealth fighter has. Su57 has much better engine coming while j20 is utterly underpowered.

J20 WITH foreplanes still has lower frontal RCS than the Su57

Although unconfirmed claims, but very possible. Our Su-30 detected one (some members like @HariPrasad-1 keep mentioning that) probably from some odd angle or deliberately flying without RAM to mislead India.

Question :
Why do people keep saying canards increase RCS?.. Maybe compared to Su-35 the EXTRA canards of Su-30 do, but Su-57 had wings-tails while J-20 has canards-wings. What does canards do that tailplanes dont?

View attachment 46113

Chinese Airforce MRCA -750 Indian MRCA - 375.

Inaccurate.

260 Su-30 were made by HAL alone (possibly 12 more coming). Our Mirage-2000 number is 47 after the last crash. 62 Mig-29 confirmed (possibly 21 more coming). 16 Tejas (83+24 more pending). 0 Rafale (atleast 36 pending).

Also Chinese have to maintain presence against S.Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Russia, Vietnam, Philippines and USA. We just got Pakis, that too whole North India region is sharing the two.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

Timeline for OCRA: first flight: 2026(if sanctioned now), ready for induction: 2031-32
Now regarding Naval AMCA project, it can only start after the completion of AMCA MK1 (AF version) project. So the project if sanctioned can only start earliest by 2025 (AMCA first flight) or 2030 (AMCA IOC timeline: more likely). Add 5 years (minimum) for the first prototype building and another 5 years (minimum) to get tested and inducted. That gives a timeline of 2035-2040 at the earliest. So TEDBF project is 5-10 years ahead of Naval AMCA.
Now, Naval tejas mk1 has allowed the Navy to master the aerodynamics for carrier landing. But Navy decided against a single engine aircraft. So it decided to go for twin engine version of Naval Tejas mk2 that is TEDBF. For the Navy operating a stealth aircraft, which is highly expensive and maintenance intensive, with limited payload (in weapons bay), is off less priority for now. Also, the carrier will likely give the potential location for the fighter from a large distance. The Navy wants a twin engine fighter that can do carrier landings (reinforced undercarriage). carries conformal fuel tanks (extended range), and carry vast weapons payload (firepower: Air-air and air-surface), which is equipped with modern sensors and avionics. In short, a desi analogue of F-18 SH or Rafael M. They want that jet to replace the in-service Mig-29K, which has proved to be a nightmare.
Now in 2016-17, Navy proposed the AMCA Navy to be build first, and then go for the AF version. This will shorten the developmental timeframe, as learned from the Naval Tejas mk1 project. Second option is to go for a new airframe (amca 3B-01 to 09 prototype), but that is a completely new airframe. Hence, they decided to stick to the delta based airframe of Tejas.

 

[Karthi]

And moreover ORCA has 13 Hardpoints , 5th gen fighters have limited firepower only 6-8 Hard points , may be we can use AMCA in beast mode. But in peace time if we use AMCA frequently it may give away the signature's , AMCA will be our most potent platform , give aways are dangerous especially thr main role of AMCA will be sead/dead .


I don't know why everyone thinks Only Stealthy airframes are advanced , we can incorporate all kind of technologies in ORCA like Sensor Fusion , data link for netcentric Warfare , teaming with Unmanned attack Aircraft's , we can leave space for add more processor s in the future to enhance features

 

[Bleh]

And moreover ORCA has 13 Hardpoints , 5th gen fighters have

ORCA is supposed to have optionally manned feature, with unmanned wingman, may have towed decoy and as much (frontal) stealth as possible. Also stealthy weapon-carrying pod will allow it and 5th Gens to take upto 10-12 AAMs.
It will hardly be 4.5th gen, to be fairly classified as 5.5th gen... Depending only on how much progress we manage to make in AI and EW front by then.

Question :
Why do people keep saying canards increase RCS?.. Maybe compared to Su-35 the EXTRA canards of Su-30 do, but Su-57 had wings-tails while J-20 has canards-wings. What does canards do that tailplanes dont?

Throwing this again. Anybody actually knows or just say canard=mo'RCS for no reason?

 

[Karthi]

ORCA is supposed to have optionally manned feature, with unmanned wingman, may have towed decoy and as much (frontal) stealth as possible. Also stealthy weapon-carrying pod will allow it and 5th Gens to take upto 10-12 AAMs.
It will hardly be 4.5th gen, to be fairly classified as 5.5th gen... Depending only on how much progress we manage to make in AI and EW front by then.

Throwing this again. Anybody actually knows or just say canard=mo'RCS for no reason?

Canards increases RCS this affects. Stealth . To make fighters stealth designers using planform alignment.

You can see in these pictures the angle of surfaces in an Aircraft design in such a way that they reflect Radar waves to away from where it arrives .

And moving parts such as Ruder , elevator etc increase the chances of reflecting the Radar straight back to Radars when it deflect . Similarly Canards is a large moving surface so the chances are high to reflect back to Radars .


But Canards can be design as stealthy.

J20 Canards are plan form aligned to other surfaces to increase stealth.

F35 with Canards , these are Stealth Canards .

If you look into the Rafale Canards this is unstealthy Canards .Most of the canards have an anhedral or dihedral due to aerodynamics requirements, which means that they are not in the same plane as the wing and reflect radar waves in other directions, increasing RCS.

And the Radar waves which reflects on the Canards can strike on wings and can reflect back to source .

If you look into the J20 Canards it's positioned in the same plane of wings thus improves stealth .

But when Canards somewhat increases the frontal RCS , when it deflects .

 

[Bleh]

No man, those are basics. Almost everyone knows.

But my query was on this point; Su-57 had wings-tails while J-20 has canards-wings. What does canards do that tailplanes dont?

 

[Steven Rogers]

And moreover ORCA has 13 Hardpoints , 5th gen fighters have limited firepower only 6-8 Hard points , may be we can use AMCA in beast mode. But in peace time if we use AMCA frequently it may give away the signature's , AMCA will be our most potent platform , give aways are dangerous especially thr main role of AMCA will be sead/dead .


I don't know why everyone thinks Only Stealthy airframes are advanced , we can incorporate all kind of technologies in ORCA like Sensor Fusion , data link for netcentric Warfare , teaming with Unmanned attack Aircraft's , we can leave space for add more processor s in the future to enhance features

6-8 external,4-6 internal .

 

[Karthi]

No man, those are basics. Almost everyone knows.

But my query was on this point; Su-57 had wings-tails while J-20 has canards-wings. What does canards do that tailplanes dont?

Canard gives very good stalling characteristics. A stable canard is better than a stable wing tail. Canards can be used as brakes better than a tail. Air becomes turbulent as it passes over / under a wing that makes tails less precise. Control authority is larger for unstable canard aircraft at high CL than for unstable aft tail designs.


Canards can work fine with Delta wings , it improves the agility , Someone posted a graph showing Gripen NG has highest turn rate even better than F22 , that is achieved by the perfect combination of Delta Wing and Canard . Gripen has the highest ITR in the world claims many experts .in a Delta Wing design Canard helps in Shot take off . All the fifth generation is somewhat Delta Wing configuration J 20 is an example . By sacrificing little stealth they tried an agile airframe . J20 uses special control laws to minimise the RCS by controlling Canard in the most Stealthy way.


Moreover It's not about the Canard It's the overall design , we need to minimise the disadvantages of various control surfaces and need to tap all the advantages by perfect design .

Basically Canard is Tail plane at the front Which imoroves the Aircraft if designed perfectly

 

[Bleh]

Gripen has the highest ITR in the world claims many experts .in a Delta Wing design Canard helps in Shot take off .

Then Chinese fkankers wouldn't butcher it 16:0 in WVR at the same exercise they lost 9:44 in BVR.

By sacrificing little stealth they tried an agile airframe . J20 uses special control laws to minimise the RCS by controlling Canard in the most Stealthy way.

Exactly. Why? Will having canards, instead of tail-planes, have any reason jeopardise stealth? That is if planform aligned like older JSF prototype (X-35) of LM.

Canards of J-20 are not in plane nor shaped, so it dont count.

J-20 maneuvers mediocre without TVC, Tejas IOC performs similar.

 

[Karthi]

Then Chinese fkankers wouldn't butcher it 16:0 in WVR at the same exercise they lost 9:44 in BVR.

Exactly. Why? Will having canards, instead of tail-planes, have any reason jeopardise stealth? That is if planform aligned like older JSF prototype (X-35) of LM.

Canards of J-20 are not in plane nor shaped, so it dont count.
View attachment 46339
J-20 maneuvers mediocre without TVC, Tejas IOC performs similar.

It's tactics Flankers are manuverable also ,. that world breaking Instantaneous turn rate may be for Gripen NG(Not Sure).

J20 is heavy fighter with underpowered enginnes They will perform better when they got powerful Engines

 

[Bleh]

View attachment 41535

Started from the twin F414 engines on an F-18 and worked my way along the fuselage towards the nose. Feasibility-wise looks like ORCA will be of almost similar length, so shortened it just a bit.

I have made its wings based on ORCA renders, and realised each of them are almost 1.5 times wider compared to NLCA Mark2 (quoted) .

 

[scatterStorm]

Started from the twin F414 engines on an F-18 and worked my way along the fuselage towards the nose. Feasibility-wise looks like ORCA will be of similar length, maybe slightly shorter.

I have made its wings based on ORCA renders, and realised each of them are almost 1.5 times wider compared to NLCA Mark2 (quoted) .

Those some legendary photoshop skills... F18 was molested big time.

 

[scatterStorm]

MS Paint... Dont know photoshop.

Still, made my day. Jokes apart, I think we are bashing our heads to never ending speculation. I am ok with Tejas Mk1 and Mk2. These Orcas and TEDBF is another shit storm to be very honest, not to mention AMCA. 3 jets on the table, its like repeating the same mistake of what USAF, US Navy and Marines requested back in the 70s, in the end they have to settle down to F16 and F18. Tejas Mk2 and AMCA will suffice, yey itna raita kyo phelaney ka.

 

[Karthi]

Scenarios : Will IAF have room for Tejas Mk2, ORCA, and AMCA at the same time?

SOURCE: SATYAJEET KUMAR/ FOR MY TAKE / IDRW.ORG

By 2035, Indian Air Force (IAF) plans to retire nearly 300 front line fighter jets which include 100+ Upgraded Mig-21Bis, 90+ Jaguar Ground Strike aircraft and 110 mix fleet of Mirage-2000 and Mig-29, according to some media reports, IAF also has plans to retire the first batch of 50 Su-30MKIs from 2035 onwards which brings the total tally to 350 jets by 2035, even though we are not factoring in close to 120+ Mig-27s which have been retired from 2010 onwards and are yet to be replaced with the newer planes.

IAF’s current procurement plans involve the purchase of an additional 8 Su-30MKI, 21 Mig-29, 36 Dassault Rafale, 40 Tejas Mk1, and 83 Mk1A along with procurement of 114 jets of International origin. which by 2030 will see the induction of nearly 300 jets plus there will be room for nearly 100 MWF-Mk2 which is already under development and it is expected to enter production by 2026 and could have produced at least 50 jets by 2030.

50 more MWF-Mk2 might come in period from 2030-35 for IAF which will mean that IAF will have around 350 newer generation jets from a period of 2020-2035 when it will be retiring nearly 300 jets in this period and the replacement rate will be one to one for the next 15 years assuming that all the procurements take place in time and deliveries are on schedule.

IAF which has sanctioned strength of a fighter fleet of forty-two squadrons usually requires nearly 800 jets at its disposal for a two-front war with China and Pakistan but even in the 2030-35 period, it will have only 300 jets replacing 300 older jets thus negating any major bump in aerial firepower fleet.

IAF fighter fleet strength in 2030 will rise briefly but by 2035 Jaguar and Mirage/Mig-29 fleet will be flagged for the replacement which will again flatten the growth curve for the IAF in the period unless it decides to prolong this jets in service. By 2035 350+280 Su-30MKI fleet will still make its fleet strength of 630 jets if we assume all Jaguar and Mirage/Mig-29 fleet is retired by then, still IAF will be short of nearly 200 jets even in 2035. IAF will induct AMCA with older F414 engines from 2030 onwards and it is expected that the first 40 jets will be delivered by 2035 when the production for Mk2 will commence but IAF will still be short by over 100 jets even in 2035 assuming all jets are inducted in time and older ones also retired in time. IAF is likely to agree to field at least 50 more MWF-Mk2 from 2035 onwards.

 

[Karthi]

Possible Scenario if ORCA and AMCA is cleared by IAF for induction for 2035 and also if ORCA never happens

Possible Scenario if ORCA and AMCA Mk1 and Mk2 is cleared by IAF for induction in 2040 and also if ORCA never happens

idrw.org .Read more at India No 1 Defence News Website http://idrw.org/scenarios-will-iaf-have-room-for-tejas-mk2-orca-and-amca-at-the-same-time/ .

 

[SATISH]

If navy is not allowed for a third Aircraft carrier there is no use for the TEDBF/ORCA. Just procurement of Rafale/F18 or even additional Mig 29K will suffice. Rather put money into AMCA with a very good indigenous engine and avionics for AMCA. The Navy and Air force can develop it in partnership.