TEDBF or ORCA Updates

Steven Rogers

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This is the problem , we are judging our ability of 2030 - 2040 by using current figures and capabilities . I didn't see anything other Than AMCA in 2035 . MKI s are almost NB dead by that time , Mig 29 also , We need a twin Engine Fighter to replace 272 MKIs , 72 Mig 29s , and need a lot of fighters to counter PAF and PLAF , don't know how many UCAVs and UAVs will go into our enemies inventory .

Today we believe MKIs , Mig 29 and AMCA are enough, probably in that time we will discuss about ' how these people failed to find a suitable replace' . We can incorporate all kind of tech to ORCA including DEWs, what if somehave we delayed AMCA to 2040 . The same import and MMRCA 4.0 or 5.0 drama will continue
As far as I remember,Air Marshal Raghunath Nambiar in an event said that AMCA will possibly replace Su30mkis....ADA officials talk about MWF A potential replacement for mirage and Mig29 class of aircraft... Shouldn't these two are enough to replace our inventory rather than investing again in another project....
 

IndianHawk

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The excercise held in 2015 not 10 years ago..and if you take WVR conflict,the gripen was handicapped with the vastly inferior Aim9L...do you have any source which claims most of the aircraft are equipped with AESA and ANY different aam....
Only the latest variants of j16 and j10c have aesa afaik . Even that is shitty Chinese aesa which can't hold a candle to elta 2052.
 

IndianHawk

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As far as I remember,Air Marshal Raghunath Nambiar in an event said that AMCA will possibly replace Su30mkis....ADA officials talk about MWF A potential replacement for mirage and Mig29 class of aircraft... Shouldn't these two are enough to replace our inventory rather than investing again in another project....
By other project you mean tedbf ?

It's navy project. AMCA naval version will be too late.
 

Steven Rogers

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By other project you mean tedbf ?

It's navy project. AMCA naval version will be too late.
I meant only for the air force,TEDBF is getting the Navy's backing,air force till today have shown no intrest in the ORCA and their primary focus is on inducting LCA fleet as of current and move with MWF and AMCA for the future ....
 

IndianHawk

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I meant only for the air force,TEDBF is getting the Navy's backing,air force till today have shown no intrest in the ORCA and their primary focus is on inducting LCA fleet as of current and move with MWF and AMCA for the future ....
That's air Force choice. But once you have a naval tedbf design you also have the orca design ready.

And orca will me much cheaper to amca as stealth is costly. Let's see what air Force will do.
 

Steven Rogers

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That's air Force choice. But once you have a naval tedbf design you also have the orca design ready.

And orca will me much cheaper to amca as stealth is costly. Let's see what air Force will do.
Depends upon how it is costly to other...today an f35 is cheaper than a eurofighter 2000 on the paper. An stealth aircraft will severely reduce the requirement of numbers we previously had,ORCA timeline clashes with the AMCA,also compared with the MWF,the difference will be as much as a Rafale and a modern F16block70. So I don't think IAF will consider ORCA if it is already buying MWF and also eyes to operate more than the current order of Rafale.....the later is quite a safer term for the iaf as future on orca is still unclear and Rafale option is way more safer and clear for the force growth.
 

IndianHawk

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today an f35 is cheaper than a eurofighter 2000 on the paper.
Only because 3000 f35 are being built. If you'd build 3000 eurofighter they will cost half of f35.

We will build 200+ amca only . Maybe 500 in longer run in later batches. Amca will be at least 40-50% more costly then orca.
And that's not it.
Maintenance of stealth jet is more costly as coatings get damaged in every flight. It takes more time to repair so availability is also low.

US sent 3 f35 to Finland for trails. 1 broke down beforehand out of the rest 2 only 1 could perform for evaluation. That is the reality of stealth.

This is why Russian are going slow with production of su57 ! It's too costly to own and operate compared to su35 which itself is maintenance intensive .

And that's why I laugh when people say Pak will get stealth jets soon. Lol.
ORCA timeline clashes with the AMCA,also compared with the MWF,the difference will be as much as a Rafale and a modern F16block70.
That's valid. But as I said amca is too costly to compare and orca is not competing with mwf. Mwf will replace mig29k/ jaguar / mirage. While orca and amca both will paralley replace older su30 batches and add new squadrons to fill up numbers.

also eyes to operate more than the current order of Rafale.....the later is quite a safer term for the iaf as future on orca is still unclear and Rafale option is way more safer and clear for the force growth.
36 more rafale will come. Rafale is too costly and it's upgraded will be very costly as well. We paid 50 million to upgrade each mirage in 2012 prices. That was more than purchasing cost of mirage !

Now apply similar maths to rafale! We can't afford more than 72. And yet we need more numbers. So there is space for orca. Now IAF can go for more mwf. But orca offers greater range , greater payload and more powerful radar+ew suite. IAF surely be tempted.
 

Karthi

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I meant only for the air force,TEDBF is getting the Navy's backing,air force till today have shown no intrest in the ORCA and their primary focus is on inducting LCA fleet as of current and move with MWF and AMCA for the future ....

dassault-rafale-french-air-force-aircraft-wallpaper-preview.jpg


This is my personal opinion , it will be nice if we go for ORCA as a Rafale + platform . M88 producing 50-75 KN thrust Kaveri currently producing 52-81 KN , if we able to fix other issues of Kaveri we can develop ORCA with complete Indian technology . What will we do if somehave AMCA delayed , yes IAF and ADA ,HAL trying to avoid delays but what if it delayed , we all are witnessing how these Russians , Brits are doing with MKI and jaguars , we lost many years in improving their abilities , we tried for a better engine for Jaguar we know what happened , we try to install I Derby, MAWS and HBJ on MKIs we saw what happened , similar things can be happen in Rafale also , if we develop ORCA it will be a bonus , we should cancel mk1A& should Focus on MWF and ORCA .
 

IndianHawk

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View attachment 45833

This is my personal opinion , it will be nice if we go for ORCA as a Rafale + platform . M88 producing 50-75 KN thrust Kaveri currently producing 52-81 KN , if we able to fix other issues of Kaveri we can develop ORCA with complete Indian technology . What will we do if somehave AMCA delayed , yes IAF and ADA ,HAL trying to avoid delays but what if it delayed , we all are witnessing how these Russians , Brits are doing with MKI and jaguars , we lost many years in improving their abilities , we tried for a better engine for Jaguar we know what happened , we try to install I Derby, MAWS and HBJ on MKIs we saw what happened , similar things can be happen in Rafale also , if we develop ORCA it will be a bonus , we should cancel mk1A& should Focus on MWF and ORCA .
Only problem is that navy is driving the twin engine jet program and navy needs more thrust. I don't think navy will compromise with thrust that f414 will provide as in naval operation that will mean take off with more payload .
 

Steven Rogers

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Only because 3000 f35 are being built. If you'd build 3000 eurofighter they will cost half of f35.

We will build 200+ amca only . Maybe 500 in longer run in later batches. Amca will be at least 40-50% more costly then orca.
And that's not it.
Maintenance of stealth jet is more costly as coatings get damaged in every flight. It takes more time to repair so availability is also low.

US sent 3 f35 to Finland for trails. 1 broke down beforehand out of the rest 2 only 1 could perform for evaluation. That is the reality of stealth.

This is why Russian are going slow with production of su57 ! It's too costly to own and operate compared to su35 which itself is maintenance intensive .

And that's why I laugh when people say Pak will get stealth jets soon. Lol.


That's valid. But as I said amca is too costly to compare and orca is not competing with mwf. Mwf will replace mig29k/ jaguar / mirage. While orca and amca both will paralley replace older su30 batches and add new squadrons to fill up numbers.



36 more rafale will come. Rafale is too costly and it's upgraded will be very costly as well. We paid 50 million to upgrade each mirage in 2012 prices. That was more than purchasing cost of mirage !

Now apply similar maths to rafale! We can't afford more than 72. And yet we need more numbers. So there is space for orca. Now IAF can go for more mwf. But orca offers greater range , greater payload and more powerful radar+ew suite. IAF surely be tempted.
3000 F35??? Where,and when,USAF operates around 550 f35s,well short of its order as of current,and the price is down for the current f35s,not the last one to be inducted...in that sense you're indirectly saying that F35 with all the troubles is more successful than the Eurofighter program....
Maintenance and repair,we shouldn't go to that extent as of yet,first let an initial squadron indicted into the force and response from the air force itself,today everything regarding stealth is guessing,last I know stealth material is also used on 41/2 generation aircraft like Rafale,and it's maintenance and availablity is better than the competitive migs... The numbers at which AMCA will be built is still not reached,the program will surely be slow in the initial induction,but the extent to which it is gonna replace the aircrafts can only counted on its performance if exceeds the ASQR.... The reality of stealth is,Americans using stealth since 60s,have retired various other stealth aircraft and operating an stealth fighter from the past 15 years with availability rate equal to our Su30s despite having a fleet of 180s,and now operating over 500 f35s,among the exported one, last year an Israeli f35 destroyed the so called anti stealth low frequency radar of Chinese in the middle East....Russian alternative is naive,Chinese j20 seems to advance more on material and manufacturing than the Russian aircraft...the official backing out of India from any cooperation with Russia on an stealth aircraft is also an indication of what Russians offer on this front....
Su30s wont be retired completely in the 30s,the last of the Su30s have inducted just this year,and the last of the su30swill last post 50s..in 30s only the initial units will go...mig29s and mirage2000snds themselves will last in 30s before being retired in the same decade......ORCA comparison with Mwf is equivalent to the comparison of mirage and Mig29 ,Rafale and gripen E/F,or Rafale and F16s.........
 

Steven Rogers

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This is my personal opinion , it will be nice if we go for ORCA as a Rafale + platform . M88 producing 50-75 KN thrust Kaveri currently producing 52-81 KN , if we able to fix other issues of Kaveri we can develop ORCA with complete Indian technology . What will we do if somehave AMCA delayed , yes IAF and ADA ,HAL trying to avoid delays but what if it delayed , we all are witnessing how these Russians , Brits are doing with MKI and jaguars , we lost many years in improving their abilities , we tried for a better engine for Jaguar we know what happened , we try to install I Derby, MAWS and HBJ on MKIs we saw what happened , similar things can be happen in Rafale also , if we develop ORCA it will be a bonus , we should cancel mk1A& should Focus on MWF and ORCA .
As of today,ORCA hasn't even reached the design stage, designing itself will take time,and what if ORCA delays itself....another engine addition in LCA itself invites various design challenges and this seemed to be a new project with complete internal change in design ....MWF project started in 2014 will be fruitful in the last of the next decade itself.....and if AMCA delays,the only option India has left is the Russian Su57 and we will all get to know that in the five years whether the Su57 will make into the Indian soil or we will fly AMCA....
 

IndianHawk

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3000 F35??? Where,and when,USAF operates around 550 f35s,well short of its order as of current,and the price is down for the current f35s,not the last one to be inducted..
The plan is to build 3000 f35 overall. Infrastructure has been developed for that scale and that's why price is coming down. Economy of scale.
stealth fighter from the past 15 years with availability rate equal to our Su30s despite having a fleet of 180s,and now operating over 500 f35s,among the exported one
F22 was maintenance nightmare . F35 is much better than that but still too costly to operate and maintain.


last year an Israeli f35 destroyed the so called anti stealth low frequency radar of Chinese in the middle East....Russian alternative is naive,Chinese j20 seems to advance more on material and manufacturing than the Russian aircraft...
Chini radars are shitty. And j20 has huge canards to increase rcs which no other stealth fighter has. Su57 has much better engine coming while j20 is utterly underpowered . J20 Avionics is generations behind that of rafale.
Su57 is much better plane than j20 overall. But it's also very costly to operate and maintain.

Infact maintenance cost is one of the reasons why Russian compromised with degree of stealth in su57 .
 

Steven Rogers

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The plan is to build 3000 f35 overall. Infrastructure has been developed for that scale and that's why price is coming down. Economy of scale.


F22 was maintenance nightmare . F35 is much better than that but still too costly to operate and maintain.




Chini radars are shitty. And j20 has huge canards to increase rcs which no other stealth fighter has. Su57 has much better engine coming while j20 is utterly underpowered . J20 Avionics is generations behind that of rafale.
Su57 is much better plane than j20 overall. But it's also very costly to operate and maintain.

Infact maintenance cost is one of the reasons why Russian compromised with degree of stealth in su57 .
J20 WITH foreplanes still has lower frontal RCS than the Su57. If J20 avionics are a generation behind rafale,then need not to comment on su57,that ultimately makes it inferior to the Rafale.Su57 has least degree of stealth reflects quality of research Russians made on that front mostly due to the fall of the Soviet union ,that's true the infrastructure for f35 if for the larger order,that again makes it more suitable over a 4th gen aircraft,if India plans to bring down cost of TEDBF by inducting ORCA,the orders for air force variant will eat the orders for AMCA thus making AMCA even more expensive...F22 still has equivalent flying hours compared to the Sukhois we have...
 

IndianHawk

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F22 still has equivalent flying hours compared to the Sukhois we have
F22 has per hour flying cost of about 40 thousands dollars. F35 is upwards 25k usd .

Su30 is just 10-15k usd. In India it might be even less since everything is built in-house ( spares and maintainace).


that's true the infrastructure for f35 if for the larger order,that again makes it more suitable over a 4th gen aircraft,
F35 is cheaper but not available to us. And AMCA will be costly because of less numbers.
if India plans to bring down cost of TEDBF by inducting ORCA,the orders for air force variant will eat the orders for AMCA thus making AMCA even more expensive.
Depends how much AMCA airforce is planning.
Tedbf is coming Navy has no other option design for orca will be there anyways. Probably orca will fill the numbers intended for Rafale. Rather then 200 Rafale we will have 72 rafale + 118 orca.

Honestly I think it will be stupid to not produce a ready design. When all the components are there and navy is going ahead with it .
 

Karthi

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airpower.jpg


Chinese Airforce MRCA -750 Indian MRCA - 375.

We should go for ORCA With

DAS.
GaN EW suite.
GaN AESA Radar.
Net centric Warfare with Unlimited Data transfer between Aircrafts.
Astra Mk2.
SFDR Based Astra.
Carbon Composite Body .
Semi stealth airframe .
 

Immanuel

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I don't see why the Navy wants to waste time and treasure on the TEDBF, this is a classic stall tactic for nothing. We won't have anything for another decade, no new carrier, no new aircraft, no new money. Why waste time on such endeavours when a Rafale Mk-4 would suffice if they want a twin engine deck based fighter with canards.

Navy seems to be going down the IAF and IA road. This disease of do nothing, take shitty decisions, dump on ongoing local projects while always changing needs has now become a habit.

Absolute lack of focus. The services are worse than my 3 year old who can be quite clear and articulate on she wants.
 

Karthi

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I don't see why the Navy wants to waste time and treasure on the TEDBF, this is a classic stall tactic for nothing. We won't have anything for another decade, no new carrier, no new aircraft, no new money. Why waste time on such endeavours when a Rafale Mk-4 would suffice if they want a twin engine deck based fighter with canards.

Navy seems to be going down the IAF and IA road. This disease of do nothing, take shitty decisions, dump on ongoing local projects while always changing needs has now become a habit.

Absolute lack of focus. The services are worse than my 3 year old who can be quite clear and articulate on she wants.

Are you British
 

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