T-14 Armata

militarysta

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close enough :) you are in ballpark range
Yes, but now I don't remember about PG-7W granade 2,5 or 3MJ? :)
As I remember HEAT-RA (double SC) have about E= 8< MJ if caliber is about 150mm and it have ~1100-1300mm RHA perforation.



@Kunal Biswas



Indian Army field some where 3000 tanks in different terrain it was important to have a tank made in India as it obvious, Home made tanks can be modified as per demand but same don't apply Licences Produce tanks..
Well I remember times when Poland have more then 1800 tanks... (~1993.) but times are changing... :)
And agree "own" tank whithout licences is very good, but...if this tank only advantages it that is own production? I thinking about relation between combat values and cost (including licences...).

Arjun MK-2 & 3 are next in evolution, Now there is where you can compare to K2 or some Turkish tanks.
Well for me it's obvious that nex Ajrun will be more closer to "normal" III gen MBT or even on the same level :) But this Ajrun Mk.I is not this "future Ajrun".

Carry on..
Yes, I know, I had wrote something bad about priceless Ajrun Mk.I so many users here will eat me :)
 

militarysta

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BTW: can smobody write what was wrong whit russian ammo in India*? And how about IMI products? In Poland we have very bad experience about IMI products...

*about "forever young" 3BM-42 :D


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EDIT2

About russian tanks and China -it seems tahat Russians try to achive balance between they tank fleet and china tank fleet. When we compare China an Russian tanks according to its combat values we can see that Russian have balans base on 1:3 ratio*

~2,000-2,500 ZTZ-96 <---> ~500 T-72B (Ob.184) , + 220 T-72BA (Ob.184A/A1) , 130 T-90 (Ob.188) etc
~800 ZTZ-99 <---> 400-450 T-80U (Ob.219A?)
~ ZTZ-99A2 <---> 210 T-90A (Ob.190A/A1 A2)




*1 tank in defence can stop 3 enemy tanks
it's balance ratio known since second WW. In fact on overpass placed this ratio for sure breaking down the defense shoud be like 5:1 or even 7:1
 
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Kunal Biswas

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@Kunal Biswas

And agree "own" tank whithout licences is very good, but...if this tank only advantages it that is own production? I thinking about relation between combat values and cost (including licences...), Well for me it's obvious that nex Ajrun will be more closer to "normal" III gen MBT or even on the same level :)

Yes, I know, I had wrote something bad about priceless Ajrun Mk.I so many users here will eat me :)

Arjun MK-1 ( Combat Values & Deign ) presently better than the most numerous T-72M1, And regarding performance its good as T-90S or better..

The Information about Next Gen Arjun is not Known in depth, So i cannot argue abt its 3rd or 4th gen capabilities..


Its indeed priceless for me, but that doesn't mean i will get savage with you over Arjun tank.. :)
 

Kunal Biswas

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Russian Ammo used in T-72M1 & T-90S are fine..

Regarding Ammo for T-72M1 was rejected when propellant bags/Charge bag were found faulty, DRDO..
 

methos

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We always hear that India for some reasons needs two (if not even three) MBTs, while the rest of the world always only needs one MBT. And why exactly?
 

blueblood

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We always hear that India for some reasons needs two (if not even three) MBTs, while the rest of the world always only needs one MBT. And why exactly?
Primary reason would be terrain. Secondary will be the supposed acquisition of Abrams by Pakistan in the late 80's, hence a 60 tonne Arjun.

Terrain.

1) Kashmir - Home to some of the highest mountains in the world.

Operation Bison (Jammu & Kashmir 1948) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

2) Punjab - Plain but has a maze of canals on both side of the border. Very high population density.

3) Rajasthan - Thar desert.

4) Gujrat - Desert, semi desert and salt marsh.
 

Damian

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Yeah it's preatty interesting question. In this regard India is similiar to... Soviet Union and it's completely absurdal situation where 3 design bureaus were designing 3 MBT's for Soviet Armed Forces that were manufactured in more or less the same time, and were not share common components... incredible logistics nightmare.

In India situation is preatty much the same, we have low quality T-72M1 as most numerous tank and two high quality tanks in smaller numbers (T-90S and Arjun), similiar situation as in Soviet Union where there were two high quality tanks, the T-64 and T-80, and a lower quality tank the T-72.

Similiar situation is in China, where there is low quality tank the ZTZ-96, and high quality tank ZTZ-99.

While most other countries try or were able to achieve one MBT fleet (although with different variants that at least share spare parts commonality).

USA - ~8,000+ M1/M1A1/M1A2 tanks fleet.
UK - ~300+ FV4034 Challenger 2 tanks fleet (although in early to late 1990's there were also FV4211 Chieftain and FV4030/4 Challenger 1 tanks in the fleet).
Germany - ~200-300+ Leopard 2 tanks fleet (A5 and A6 variants in active fleet and A4 in reserve/training units).
France - ~300-400+ Leclerc tanks fleet (Serie II and Serie III/XXI in active fleet and Serie I in reserve storage).
Italy - ~200 C1 Ariete tanks fleet.

Other NATO countries have tank fleets with more machines of various types, because of nececity or other reasons but the long term goal is to achieve one type tank fleet if possible.

Russia also have many tanks but this is a legacy of Soviet Union, but the main goals are:

1) Start production of "Armata" heavy tracked platform and new MBT based on it.
2) T-72 and T-90 series are most wide spread MBT's. Both share some parts commonality.
3) T-80 series used until spare parts will end, then all will be scrapped.
4) T-64 series retired and slowly scrapped.
5) T-54/55 and T-62 series scrapped.
6) Other unusuall and old tank types retired and mostly scrapped.

Primary reason would be terrain. Secondary will be the supposed acquisition of Abrams by Pakistan in the late 80's, hence a 60 tonne Arjun.

Terrain.

1) Kashmir - Home to some of the highest mountains in the world.

Operation Bison (Jammu & Kashmir 1948) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

2) Punjab - Plain but has a maze of canals on both side of the border. Very high population density.

3) Rajasthan - Thar desert.

4) Gujrat - Desert, semi desert and salt marsh.
Many countries have similiar variety of environments and use one type of MBT. IMHO if there are problems with vehicle weight and infrastructure, the best solution of India would be T-90S or eventually more modern T-90MS, it's weight is less than 50 tons so there would not be so big strain on infrastructure, and T-90S is well suited to counter both Pakistani T-80UD, Al Khalid as well as Chinese ZTZ-96 and ZTZ-99.

On the other hand heavier vehicles are operated by other nations in similiar environments and there are no big problems with infrastructure, US for example have not only temperate climate regions but also arctic or desert ones (also with mountain regions) and have armor-mechanized units stationing in such regions without problems, and the overall trend is to make vehicles better protected (this also means that these vehicles will be heavier).

So it is certainly good question if India needs so many MBT's of 3 various types without spare parts commonality, that makes use of them more expensive and adds stress for logistics chain.
 
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p2prada

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We always hear that India for some reasons needs two (if not even three) MBTs, while the rest of the world always only needs one MBT. And why exactly?
IA has currently standardized on T-90 which is an upgraded T-72. So, you can consider them to be one and the same. 20 years after T-90 is first fielded the FMBT will be inducted. That effectively gives 50 years for the T-72/T-90 tanks. FMBT will continue to be the standard MBT until some time in the far future, so that's at least 30 years.

Arjun is more for building our tank industry in order to get to the FMBT. Arjun's current orders of 124Mk1s and 124Mk2s aren't that great to consider we are a two tank force. For all we know both Mk1s and Mk2s may be junked prematurely as has happened to many defence programs around the world. A future order of Mk2s may bode well for Arjun, but the Mk1s are useless as they are today.
 

blueblood

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Many countries have similiar variety of environments and use one type of MBT. IMHO if there are problems with vehicle weight and infrastructure, the best solution of India would be T-90S or eventually more modern T-90MS, it's weight is less than 50 tons so there would not be so big strain on infrastructure, and T-90S is well suited to counter both Pakistani T-80UD, Al Khalid as well as Chinese ZTZ-96 and ZTZ-99.

On the other hand heavier vehicles are operated by other nations in similiar environments and there are no big problems with infrastructure, US for example have not only temperate climate regions but also arctic or desert ones (also with mountain regions) and have armor-mechanized units stationing in such regions without problems, and the overall trend is to make vehicles better protected (this also means that these vehicles will be heavier).

So it is certainly good question if India needs so many MBT's of 3 various types without spare parts commonality, that makes use of them more expensive and adds stress for logistics chain.
Not really, China and Russia are the only other two countries I can think of, who share border with major military powers and have such kind of varying geography. US does not face that problem. US forces are expeditionary and are designed to fight on any terrain, mostly outside of their own borders but even then Abrams failed tests in Pakistani desert in late 80s. It was these tests that lead Indian planners to believe that a 60 tonnes MBT is required to face Abrams and the 40-45 tonne Russian tanks just won't do.

Indian Army was banking on the timely induction of Arjun and was supposed to be a 2 tank Army. Delay in the development of Arjun led to the induction of T-90S.

As of the mid 2000's, infrastructure has been set up for operating the heavier Arjuns.
 

Damian

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US forces are expeditionary and are designed to fight on any terrain, mostly outside of their own borders but even then Abrams failed tests in Pakistani desert in late 80s.
Not even a single serious and reliable source says about failed tests of M1 in Pakistani desert, especially that M1 before being fielded was extensively tested in desert and arctic terrain. IMHO story of failed tests is just some a bogus story, and the real reason was that US seen Pakistan as not reliable ally (and in a long term shot it was true) that can sold M1 to SU or PRC and Americans just resigned from solding M1 to Pakistan.

It was these tests that lead Indian planners to believe that a 60 tonnes MBT is required to face Abrams and the 40-45 tonne Russian tanks just won't do.
It seems that in this part of world, weight was allways seen as indicator of protection level... and it is completely wrong approach.
 

militarysta

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niach niach niach.

Abams gas turbine life time after TIGER:
~1500h
before TIGER:
~700h

MTU MB 873 life time:
more then 10 000h :)

sorry - TIGER of course
 
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Damian

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What the hell is TRIGGER?

You mean TIGER? Besides this I still wonders about reliability of these numbers, they seem to be not reliable, especially that I never heard or read and reliable sources that engine liftime is so short. Also experiences from Iraq and Afghanistan seems to be against these statements. If this would be true then M1's operating in much harder conditions would be immobilized very quickly and ANAD would not repair engines on time.

Same for Egyptian, Saudi and Kuwaiti tanks, these countries also need to send engines to US for repairs, and they do not have problems with them.

IMHO these numbers are not true.
 
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militarysta

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Besides this I still wonders about reliability of these numbers, they seem to be not reliable.
Knowing gas turbines problems there are reliable as hell :D
BTW: using in desert GT have lower lifetime then this in upper post... And I will remind that changing PowerPack in Leo2A4 is max 25min in Abrams about 40-50min in T-72M1 replaced motor is 23h (in T-90A about 3h).
Gas Turbines was "blind way" (wrong way) in Tank developmend -in theory GT have many advantages, but in reality they have two really serious problems:
a) low liftime (about 10 times then normal diesel...)
b) they need very good service and wery cerfully using - how many Abrams have fire in engine compartment before ODS? More then 300... In US Army when trening is rather good.
So You know - I wolud be cerfull in GT thema...
 

Damian

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Knowing gas turbines problems there are reliable as hell
What problems? There are no problems with engine reliability. Please, I really do not like where this goes. I really understand that You like German technology but this is purely making black PR for US designed engine.

BTW: using in desert GT have lower lifetime then this in upper post... And I will remind that changing PowerPack in Leo2A4 is max 25min in Abrams about 40-50min in T-72M1 replaced motor is 23h (in T-90A about 3h).
Give me a proof that engine replacement in M1 is longer than in Leopard 2, where in M1 You also need to disconnect 3 or 4 bolts, some fuel and electric cables and You can put out engine. IMHO it is complete BS. Besides this Gas Turbine being lighter and smaller is easier to be pulled of engine compartment. I seen a videos from ANAD, where they are pulling out engines without a time limit very fast, same in JSMC where engines are placed in it's compartment very fast also without any time limit.

Gas Turbines was "blind way" (wrong way) in Tank developmend -in theory GT have many advantages, but in reality they have two really serious problems:
a) low liftime (about 10 times then normal diesel...)
b) they need very good service and wery cerfully using - how many Abrams have fire in engine compartment before ODS? More then 300... In US Army when trening is rather good.
So You know - I wolud be cerfull in GT thema...
Give me a proof about low lifetime, there is no proof about scuh low lifetime as You claim.

Yes there were fire accidents in US Army in early 1980's, but as it was stated in ARMOR Magazine 90-95% of these fire accidents were because of human failures, not because engine is a failed design. Also as a M1 tank crew member said, if needed Gas Turbine do not need much maintnance, it can even work for a rather long period of time without properly working air filters, before engine will be damaged and will need repair.

IMHO This is just unfair promotion of Diesel engines (especially German ones).

I'm currently searching through ARMOR Magazine for informations to post them here. I will also later double check in Richard Hunnicutt book Abrams A History Of The American Main Battle Tank Volume 2 for more informations about the engine, but I doubt I will find anything that will back up Your statements... and only someone completely insanse would say that ARMOR Magazine or Richard Hunnicutt are unreliable sources!
 
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militarysta

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Sorry I made mistake - I misteke life time MB873 and Dhiel tracks
shrotly is post smth about life times
 

blueblood

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Not even a single serious and reliable source says about failed tests of M1 in Pakistani desert, especially that M1 before being fielded was extensively tested in desert and arctic terrain. IMHO story of failed tests is just some a bogus story, and the real reason was that US seen Pakistan as not reliable ally (and in a long term shot it was true) that can sold M1 to SU or PRC and Americans just resigned from solding M1 to Pakistan.



It seems that in this part of world, weight was allways seen as indicator of protection level... and it is completely wrong approach.
Infamous Assassinations (TV Series 2007) - IMDb

Infamous Assassinations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Zia Ul Haq Assassinations Part 2.flv - YouTube

Here you go. Watch from 4.00.

PS: The video is neither Indian nor pakistani.
 

Damian

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The United States Army | Fort Benning

ARMOR Magazine links, if someone want to search with me for eventuall informations about eventuall issues with the engine. However I doubt to find any mentioned problems. I also searched on producer site, and no mentions on problems with engine, same goes on several other sites.

Infamous Assassinations (TV Series 2007) - IMDb

Infamous Assassinations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Zia Ul Haq Assassinations Part 2.flv - YouTube

Here you go. Watch from 4.00.

PS: The video is neither Indian nor pakistani.
What is this crap? It is not reliable source, not even a source by any definition. Give me some publication or document not a stupid TV documentary that do not explain anything. Bold statements are good for childern. I have tons of publications and there are internet sites with official documentation, nowhere I seen even a single one that would stand with this TV show.
 
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p2prada

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From what I know, US was closest to Pakistan because of the Soviet Afghan War at the time of the Abrams evaluation. That's when the US turned a blind eye to Pakistan's open statements about development of nuclear weapons followed by actual development and deployment of nukes, starting a terrorism campaign against India and developing a clandestine weapons proliferation(nuclear and missile) network with other rogue countries(North Korea, perhaps Iran).

It is a Pakistani view, but according to them Abrams failed every test laid out in Pakistan at the time. There was no political motive to turn down the Abrams considering the US even endorsed a nuclear Pakistan at the time. They sold F-16s to PAF at the same time anyway. It was only after the 1998 nuclear tests and 9/11 that spoilt US-Pak relations. I don't think there has been any country in the world that has not benefited from the US as much as Pak had. 1988 was the peak of their relations. That's when the US was all chummy with Osama Bin Laden too.
 

blueblood

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What is this crap? It is not reliable source, not even a source by any definition. Give me some publication or document not a stupid TV documentary that do not explain anything. Bold statements are good for childern. I have tons of publications and there are internet sites with official documentation, nowhere I seen even a single one that would stand against this TV show.
Did I stepped on your toes mate? I had this discussion with a US Army veteran known as Sgt. Cav on some forums. But apparently you know more about Abrams than a man who served on that tank. :lol:
 

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